Holy Shit...Cappie has a heart !

[Commie Girl]

:o WTF?

This has made headlines here in Canada.....Frank Stronach's daughter Belinda was a Conservative MP that crossed the floor and saved the Liberal Govt from defeat .

Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050906/STORMSTRONACH06/TPInternational/?query=stronach+florida)

Stronach's luxurious haven for victims of Katrina

Frank Stronach has had wild visions before -- but never one quite like this.

This improbable dream involves airlifting evacuees from the devastation of New Orleans to the pampered world of Palm Beach, Fla. -- a vision that involves rich American whites from gated communities opening up to desperately poor American blacks and even includes the construction of a new mobile-home community in Louisiana for more than 300 victims of hurricane Katrina.
And so far, he's pulling it off.

But then, Frank Stronach once dreamed he could make a better life in Canada than his native Austria could give, and he made it happen to a point where the young man who arrived with $40 in his pocket now regularly pockets more than $50-million in salary as the chairman of Ontario-based Magna International, the $20-billion automobile parts giant he built from scratch.

He once had a vision that he would live to be 150, and today, as he turns 73, is almost half way there -- about the same point he expects to reach some time this morning on his latest wild scheme.

At that point, the final plane will touch down at Palm Beach International Airport, bringing in the last group of evacuees selected by FEMA and the American Red Cross.

This will bring the total to approximately 300, although the number may yet be increased to 400, and all will be given medical attention and new clothes courtesy of Palm Beach residents, and then taken to Magna's new training facilities at nearby Palm Meadows. There they will be housed in facilities intended for grooms and thoroughbred trainers, fed at a brand-new state-of-the-art cafeteria and, some time within the next two months, returned to Louisiana to live in a 240-hectare trailer park yet to be built.

Mr. Stronach has committed approximately $3-million to the rescue effort, although costs at the moment are purely guesswork. A suitable location for the mobile homes that will be sent from Canada has not been decided and, Mr. Stronach says, he will let the evacuees have significant say in where they go, or whether they even wish to stay together.

Last Thursday, Mr. Stronach decided he could no longer wait for slow governments and large organizations to act on the tragedy unfolding along the Gulf Coast. He knew from his own life experience what it was like to be desperately poor and hungry -- "Those things are burned right into the soul" -- but could only imagine the danger that the survivors were facing .

"If you have feelings," he says, "you have to start thinking. If you come from the working class, you might say, I can send $100 to the Red Cross, and that's fine, but you also have corporations that could do something special.

"The great thing about a large company that makes a profit is that you have the capability to jump in and be helpful -- right away."

Mr. Stronach immediately dispatched his assistant, Dennis Mills, to Florida.

"I got this call from Frank," says Mr. Mills, who was still in Palm Beach yesterday afternoon, "and he says 'This is crazy! Let's go!'

"A lot of Canadians have kicked the shit out of Frank Stronach for his crazy ways, but let me tell you, he makes you proud to be a Canadian down here today."

Mr. Mills, a 16-year Toronto member of Parliament who lost in the 2004 general election to New Democratic Leader Jack Layton, is an organizational legend whose triumphs include helping to bring Pope John Paul II to Canada for World Youth Day and the Rolling Stones to Toronto for the successful SARS relief concert.

Mr. Mills immediately began working with FEMA and the Red Cross to cut through the red tape and line up several hundred candidates for the airlift. The first evacuees landed in Montgomery, Ala., where buses picked them up.

"These people were traumatized," Mr. Mills says. "The first planeload of 126 was basically people they'd fished out of the bayou that morning. We had 90-year-olds, kids, pregnant women. We headed straight for Wal-Mart and bought all the food we could carry."

At Palm Beach, local volunteers mobilized to provide medical care and clothes.

"We had psychiatrists putting on bandages," laughs Mr. Mills. "There were Palm Beach women doing the cooking. The clothing they brought to hand out you couldn't believe -- Holt Renfrew stuff. They brought enough for 10,000 people, let alone 300. I felt like doing a complete wardrobe change myself.

"It was the most unbelievable experience. You would have thought there was no colour at all. I feel like I've just witnessed a miracle."

The racetrack training facilities are scheduled to be turned over to the horse world in November, and by then Mr. Stronach and Mr. Mills hope to have a suitable location for the promised new community. The thinking at the moment is that the victims would all wish to return to Louisiana, but Mr. Stronach says the decision will be largely left to them.

Mr. Stronach is also willing to talk to them about making it an extended community that could evolve into a permanent new residence for those now in South Florida. He thinks it might be possible to house as many as 1,000 of the hurricane survivors on a plot of land on higher ground and has already asked staff to look into such matters as farming, as well as the creation of an educational facility that could bring entrepreneurship to the community.

"Helping people, feeding and shelter, that's the easy part," Mr. Stronach says. "The challenging part is what do we do to get them back on their feet again."

Mr. Stronach has already quietly gone down this route in Baltimore, home of Pimlico, another of Magna's large thoroughbred racetracks.

Struck by the poverty surrounding the historic site, Mr. Stronach has turned an abandoned school with extensive grounds into a modern technical school. He then searched through Magna for a bright young manager who happened to be both black and from Baltimore and could be talked into leaving auto parts to run an educational facility. The school -- aimed at teaching entrepreneurship and technical skills to those who might otherwise drop out of school -- has its official opening this month.

Mr. Stronach's hope is to encourage other successful corporations to become more directly involved, whether through education or, in the case of the South Florida project, a quick response to such tragedies as the hurricane devastation in Louisiana.

"We create a role model," he says, "and, hopefully, other companies will see what can be done.

"We are committed to seeing this through to the end."

[Ultra-Violence]

the only reason these cappies donate commrade is so that they can get a tax break!These Poeple honsetly will never have hearts they feel like thier givng hand outs to the less fortunate class and that, that will repent thier wrongs so they can go to thier imaginary heaven!


:hammer:

[Publius]

the only reason these cappies donate commrade is so that they can get a tax break!These Poeple honsetly will never have hearts they feel like thier givng hand outs to the less fortunate class and that, that will repent thier wrongs so they can go to thier imaginary heaven!


:hammer:

This person's done more good for the lives of more people than you or your ilk ever will.

And you know it.

[Publius]

And tell me 'Ultra Violence', do you think it's moral to force someone to be moral?

YOu've the a Clockwork Orange I assume, what's your take on the issue?

[Clarksist]

his person's done more good for the lives of more people than you or your ilk ever will.


In most cases of capitalist charity, it is used to rid the giver of his sins from capitalism, or for a good PR shoot.

Charity under capitalism is always going to be a fraud.

[Publius]

In most cases of capitalist charity, it is used to rid the giver of his sins from capitalism, or for a good PR shoot.

Charity under capitalism is always going to be a fraud.

What a fabulous way of removing yourself from reality and descending into your ideology.

[Ultra-Violence]

This person's done more good for the lives of more people than you or your ilk ever will.

And you know it.


How would you know you dont know me Publius!



And tell me 'Ultra Violence', do you think it's moral to force someone to be moral?




Who siad anything about forcing morality here buddy im talking about that the only resons cappies give money to charites is to get freaking tax breaks and you know it! :hammer:


YOu've the a Clockwork Orange I assume, what's your take on the issue?


im goanna answer your qeustion with another one.Do you think its ok for dam cappies to shove religion down every bodys throat!

;)

[*Hippie*]

These people were poor before this ever happened, what were the Cappies doing then to help them? It is too little too late really. They just seem to attach themselves to whatever cause is "popular". They do it for tax breaks but also to give the public a feeling that they care. But corporations don't have hearts, do they? When it comes down to it, it is profit over people everytime.

[Osman Ghazi]

Ummm.... You do understnad that when you give money to charity, you get a percentage of that taken off your taxes, so I can tell you they don't do it for tax breaks. It is mostly for PR.


Do you think its ok for dam cappies to shove religion down every bodys throat!


Well, generally, the system simply ensures a state of ignorance (or "knowledge") that is so far from reality, that people can easily accept religions. It is very difficult to force someone to accept a religion, and it makes for bad PR.

I can tell you that Magna aren't actually so bad in the way they treat their employees, but they are mostly skilled tradesman, or electronics/mechanics or management experts, so it is no surprise that they are well paid.


These people were poor before this ever happened, what were the Cappies doing then to help them?

More and more we are seeing evidence of a growing gap in the way economic and political activity occurs in the US and the way it occurs in other developed countries. All, with the exception of Canada and Norway are descending deeper into debt, but the US is doing so in order to fight a phantom that they are creating even as we speak, whereas the nations of Europe are doind so in order to sustain the social programs they have devised.

It seems to me that it is a matter of the undue influence of American capitalists and neoliberal ideologues on the US government. The capitalists in other countries however have been mostly contained and even in some cases directed towards useful purposes.

[Decolonize The Left]

I don't know where this quote comes from, but it's a good one:
Give a man a fish and he won't be hungry for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he won't be hungry for his life.
(It might not be exact but you get the idea.)

Yes charity is good. It gives to the poor, which is a good thing. But it is not ultimately good, as it only makes the poor rely on handouts from the rich to survive. In effect, charity worsens the effects of capitalism on polarizing the classes and making the poor poorer.

Of course the rich look good when the give to charity, but there is always an interest behind every action. This one is just simple to see.

The ultimate solution to removing poverty is, of course, to remove capitalism. But I don't think that's disputed. So when we look inside the capitalist system, there is no solution to removing poverty, it is necessary. Because without the poor, how would the rich be rich, who would they step on for more money and capital? Each other? I think not. It's much easier to step on the poor than other rich people who can fight back. And so it is in the interest of the capitalist class to keep the working class poor, which is why under capitalism, poverty will always exist.

-- August

[Ultra-Violence]

Ummm.... You do understnad that when you give money to charity, you get a percentage of that taken off your taxes, so I can tell you they don't do it for tax breaks. It is mostly for PR.


Commrade i dont know were your from commrade but were i live in L.A you get a tax break for example- at my sister school wich is a public school located in the middle of rich people land they donate money to the school not becuse it needs it but because they get a tax break!the school advertises this itself in the flyers.



Well, generally, the system simply ensures a state of ignorance (or "knowledge") that is so far from reality, that people can easily accept religions. It is very difficult to force someone to accept a religion, and it makes for bad PR.


Commrade constantly here in the you good o'l U$A we are being constantly bieng bombarded with religion every were i go! thus shoving down thier ethics and MORALS at us non-believers every where.


:hammer:

[Osman Ghazi]

Commrade i dont know were your from commrade but were i live in L.A you get a tax break for example- at my sister school wich is a public school located in the middle of rich people land they donate money to the school not becuse it needs it but because they get a tax break!the school advertises this itself in the flyers.


Well, yes, even though they advertise it, what they are advertising is not a way to make money. If they could give money to charity, and get more money than they gave off of their taxes, well everyone would give a ton of money to charity, and the government would have no money. However, we know that is not the case.

What they are really advertising is that you can improve the quality of education of your child and look like a really good person for a fraction of the actual price of the donation.


Commrade constantly here in the you good o'l U$A we are being constantly bieng bombarded with religion every were i go! thus shoving down thier ethics and MORALS at us non-believers every where.


Well, I admit, the US is different than most nations in that the offical religion is Christianity. Generally, though, if you want to understand the world and not just the US, you should realize that for motives that are not at all religious, governments often support environments in which proselytizing is made quite easy.

[Ultra-Violence]

Well, yes, even though they advertise it, what they are advertising is not a way to make money. If they could give money to charity, and get more money than they gave off of their taxes, well everyone would give a ton of money to charity, and the government would have no money. However, we know that is not the case.


commrade im not saying thier goanna get the money back what im saying is that becuse the donate a substantial amount of money (usauly around 2k) were my sister gos to they get to avoigd paying other taxes or pay less then they would nomaly



Well, I admit, the US is different than most nations in that the offical religion is Christianity. Generally, though, if you want to understand the world and not just the US, you should realize that for motives that are not at all religious, governments often support environments in which proselytizing is made quite easy.

comrade but i know all the time bieng not all motives are religious but at the time bieng yes they are just look at the iraq war its not only a war for resources but also a war on islam!


:hammer:

[spartafc]

Marx comments on charity, noting that the capitalist may be a patron of charities but regardless of this fact - he seeks to get as much return on his investment (labour) as is possible!

[Freedom Works]

Marx comments on charity, noting that the capitalist may be a patron of charities but regardless of this fact - he seeks to get as much return on his investment (labour) as is possible!

You say this like it is somehow dirty and wrong; do you shop around to get as much return as possible?

[Decolonize The Left]

You say this like it is somehow dirty and wrong; do you shop around to get as much return as possible?

This is the basis of capitalism. "More options, more competition, lower prices, better value for the consumer."
What is forgotten in all this is the worker. While the consumer is smiling because they might have enough money to afford the newest, coolest, most expensive products (note they will still try and save money even if they have it), the worker gets the proverbial shaft.

-- August

[Freedom Works]

That would be if workers were an unlimited supply, but supply and demand is in effect with workers too.

[Decolonize The Left]

That would be if workers were an unlimited supply, but supply and demand is in effect with workers too.

How is there a limited supply of workers?

If this were the case we would see all the workers being employed, and unemployment would be unknown.

-- August

[Ultra-Violence]

im suprised PUBLIUS hasnt said anything else about the subject typical for a cappie.

i was hoping hed have more to say about my comments :(


:hammer:

[Publius]

im suprised PUBLIUS hasnt said anything else about the subject typical for a cappie.

i was hoping hed have more to say about my comments :(


:hammer:

I haven't responded because I can barely read them.

But if you insist, I'll pick them apart for you.

[Publius]

Originally posted by Ultra-[email protected] 8 2005, 02:31 AM







How would you know you dont know me Publius!

I have some clues.



Who siad anything about forcing morality here buddy im talking about that the only resons cappies give money to charites is to get freaking tax breaks and you know it! :hammer:

I brought up the point myself, I was asking for your answer.




im goanna answer your qeustion with another one.Do you think its ok for dam cappies to shove religion down every bodys throat!

;)

I don't think your question makes any sense.

When and where do cappies 'shove religion down every bodys throat'?

I'm vehemently atheistic and also a capitalist.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 01:32 AM


I'm vehemently atheistic and also a capitalist.
You are one of the few. :)

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 01:58 AM



You are one of the few. :)

I've found libertarians to be quite atheistic, it's just the statist whore Republicans that give us the 'Christian' name.

[Ater Sanguis]

Why is it that the only way that some one donating money only gets recognized for doing so if they are donating after a big disaster. By this I mean that the few rich capitalists who actually do donate to the poor regularly, just because they are far worse off then most other people don't get any praise for doing so, but now that we have a catastrophe on our hands and someone donates money to the cause you open the papers only to see "OH HOT SHIT, SOME ONE WHO NEVER DONATES MONEY TO OTHERS WHO ARE ALWAYS IN DESPERATE NEED OF A LITTLE ALL OF A SUDDEN DECIDES HE HAS THE HEART TO DONATE TO THIS!!! ALL HAIL THIS PERSON!!" Lets keep some of your money going to some other people who also need it you greedy bastards. You know you can spare it.

[Decolonize The Left]

I will answer your question Ater.

The reason why charity is highly praised after large, publisized, national disasters and not for everyday donations to other causes is simple.

When a large disaster occurs, the nation's attention is drawn to it. Rich folks know they will get lots of attention if they donate at the right time. Disasters are hugely publisized, just open the paper, watch tv, or listen to the radio, you hear about Katrina. And you will hear about people who "gave so much", or "helped so much", and that's fine, but ask why these people did this.

That's what we're debating.

-- August

[Freedom Works]

Does it matter why, if their money is still helping peoples' lives?

[rachstev]

Ultra-Violenced wrote:

the only reason these cappies donate commrade is so that they can get a tax break!These Poeple honsetly will never have hearts they feel like thier givng hand outs to the less fortunate class and that, that will repent thier wrongs so they can go to thier imaginary heaven!

Ultra,

When I was younger, I knew a Born Again Christian who believed that the way heaven worked was that if you believed in Jesus, you got to go there, regardless of your conduct in life. And if you were a person, who was morally good, but didn't believe in Jesus, you were still getting thrown into a Lake of Fire (see Mathew).

Your comment reminded me of that. For you, there are no good capitalists or bad communists. Life is not this way. most of us are who we are because of where we're born and who we meet and some other factors.

I have met in my time good and generous rich people, and mean-spiritted political lefties. And I have met the reverse also.

Perhaps you need to meet more people.

Rachstev

[Decolonize The Left]

Does it matter why, if their money is still helping peoples' lives?

I think you are confused.

Charity is fine, no one thinks donating money to the poor is a "bad thing".

What we are talking about is why these people donate money, because this will ultimately affect how long they continue to do so, and how much they give.

But more importantly, charity is a short-term, weak solution to poverty. It only further polarizes the population and creates a dependency which inhibits the poor from growing out of their class. Charity is a fine example of classism in the US when you look at it this way. It's good, but it isn't a long term solution, and it hurts more in time than it helps immediately.

-- August

[Ultra-Violence]

I have some clues.


show them please.


I brought up the point myself, I was asking for your answer.


?


I don't think your question makes any sense.

When and where do cappies 'shove religion down every bodys throat'?

I'm vehemently atheistic and also a capitalist.



You are one of the few.


When I was younger, I knew a Born Again Christian who believed that the way heaven worked was that if you believed in Jesus, you got to go there, regardless of your conduct in life. And if you were a person, who was morally good, but didn't believe in Jesus, you were still getting thrown into a Lake of Fire (see Mathew).


my mom is a very devout catholic. sad really. please dont get me started on religion


Your comment reminded me of that. For you, there are no good capitalists or bad communists.

no commrade i dont think all communist are GOOD. jus look at stalin.


I have met in my time good and generous rich people, and mean-spiritted political lefties. And I have met the reverse also.

Perhaps you need to meet more people.


thats all fine and well they can be lefties at HEART but actions speak louder than words how can a cappie have sympathy for the working class when its the working class that he needs to expliot to make profit!

:hammer:

[Decolonize The Left]

how can a cappie have sympathy for the working class when its the working class that he needs to expliot to make profit!

The cappie might not realize that he is oppressing a class of people. This would explain his sympathy, as he thinks others have equal chances for success and simply didn't make it.

-- August

[John_worldrevolution.info]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 11:34 PM

how can a cappie have sympathy for the working class when its the working class that he needs to expliot to make profit!

The cappie might not realize that he is oppressing a class of people. This would explain his sympathy, as he thinks others have equal chances for success and simply didn't make it.

-- August
Possible but very unlikely. I think capitalists probably see their workers as a unit, as a collective machine which must work as hard as possible with the least amount of fuel. They don't see the individuals in their workforce as individuals, they are a means to extract surplus value and are the most class-concious class in society.

Look what BP and Exon-mobil donated to the effort - a million dollars each I think it was! Those companies make billions from their oil empires and high prices which everyone else must pay for. It's not well meaning charity its PR.

[Decolonize The Left]

It's not well meaning charity its PR.

I completely agree.


I think capitalists probably see their workers as a unit, as a collective machine which must work as hard as possible with the least amount of fuel. They don't see the individuals in their workforce as individuals, they are a means to extract surplus value and are the most class-concious class in society.

This is a little extreme. Almost as if the capitalist class is a bunch of robots...

These capitalists are still people. I don't think they donate charity because they really want to help those people with all their power, or they would.
But to think they are mindless machines bent on subjecting another class of people to forced labor with all the mall-intent in their minds is to be foolish.

I think many capitalists know they are exploiting workers, I also think they don't care. It doesn't affect them one way or the other, so why not make more money...
They arn't looking at the working class as animals, rather as how the world works: those people work for us. That doesn't mean it's right, but it makes sense.
But that's just my opinion.

-- August

[Freedom Works]

Charity is fine, no one thinks donating money to the poor is a "bad thing".
You seem to, unless it is poor giving to the poor.


What we are talking about is why these people donate money, because this will ultimately affect how long they continue to do so, and how much they give.
So they want more PR, they give more longer. How is this bad?


But more importantly, charity is a short-term, weak solution to poverty. It only further polarizes the population and creates a dependency which inhibits the poor from growing out of their class. Charity is a fine example of classism in the US when you look at it this way. It's good, but it isn't a long term solution, and it hurts more in time than it helps immediately.
I agree, but even worse than charity is welfare.
The solution to poverty is freedom.


thats all fine and well they can be lefties at HEART but actions speak louder than words how can a cappie have sympathy for the working class when its the working class that he needs to expliot to make profit!
Because it is done on a consensual basis. Would you agree anything consensual is ok?


The cappie might not realize that he is oppressing a class of people. This would explain his sympathy, as he thinks others have equal chances for success and simply didn't make it.
I disagree. Most know there is a lot of red tape, and that that is what is keeping the poor poor. It's not the capitalists, it's the "government".


Those companies make billions from their oil empires and high prices which everyone else must pay for.
Everyone MUST pay for it? Wow, sweet deal, kind of like how kids MUST goto school, oh wait...
Also, if they are making such huge profits, why don't you cut in on the action? Could it be because of "government"?!


I think many capitalists know they are exploiting workers, I also think they don't care.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of mom-and-pop stores.


They arn't looking at the working class as animals, rather as how the world works: those people work for us. That doesn't mean it's right, but it makes sense.
Sounds just like "government" workers!

[Decolonize The Left]

You seem to, unless it is poor giving to the poor.

If you think this you have failed to comprehend anything I have written up 'till this point. I have never denounced charity as something which should be eliminated, I just don't think it works over the long term.


So they want more PR, they give more longer. How is this bad?

If you think this simply, I see we will have a long talk ahead...


I agree, but even worse than charity is welfare.

Welfare and charity are practically the same thing.


The solution to poverty is freedom.

Sort of. The solution to poverty is education, followed by the removal of the class system.


I disagree.

I was offering a possible answer to Ater's question, not stating the truth. I thought my answer was plausible. But you see it differently...


Most know there is a lot of red tape, and that that is what is keeping the poor poor. It's not the capitalists, it's the "government".

:lol:
Hmmm... where to begin?
"red tape": What is this red tape? And where is it? Why is it keeping so many people poor, I don&#39;t see it... Why don&#39;t they cut this tape, or get their own tape? <_<
"Red Tape" is by far, the worst explanation for poverty in the US I have ever heard.
"Not the capitalists": Then who?
"the government": Ah.. the government. Who composes this government? Is it the homeless guy down the block who is a Vietnam vet? No, ok then... is it the construction worker who lives above you? No, hmmm... who makes up this government? It surely isn&#39;t these people on the streets I see, then who?
Ah&#33; It&#39;s the capitalist class, well that makes sense now doesn&#39;t it? So in effect, the capitalist class and the government are the same thing, they have the same agenda and the same goals and aspirations. How are they different? How is one oppressing the poor and the other helping?


Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of mom-and-pop stores.

There are many cases of who is part of the &#39;capitalist class&#39; and who is part of the &#39;working class&#39; but it&#39;s too difficult to discuss. It will be resolved when they choose to join, or fight against, a revolution.


Sounds just like "government" workers&#33;

This doesn&#39;t make sense. Yes it does sound like "government workers".. that&#39;s what the working class is: workers for the capitalist class, and the government....

-- August

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by *Hippie*@Sep 8 2005, 01:18 PM
These people were poor before this ever happened, what were the Cappies doing then to help them? It is too little too late really. They just seem to attach themselves to whatever cause is "popular". They do it for tax breaks but also to give the public a feeling that they care. But corporations don&#39;t have hearts, do they? When it comes down to it, it is profit over people everytime.
True. Captialists give to charity to brush up on their images. Also, don&#39;t be fooled by large sums of money- a lot of those large sums are a small portion of a corporation&#39;s wealth, i.e. them giving a six or seven figure sum as a donation is literally like us giving a penny as a donation&#33;

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 11:53 PM

his person&#39;s done more good for the lives of more people than you or your ilk ever will.


In most cases of capitalist charity, it is used to rid the giver of his sins from capitalism, or for a good PR shoot.

Charity under capitalism is always going to be a fraud.
This is a very cynical attitude, not to mention a broad generalization.

Still, the majority of wealth barons don&#39;t care if the public is damned, and thus they exploit it.
The rich will be ebbing out of history as they start cannibalizing each other once the Middle Class is gone.

[Freedom Works]

Charity under capitalism is always going to be a fraud.

Charity is ALWAYS a fraud. How dare you say your charity is better than someone elses?

[quincunx5]

Welfare and charity are practically the same thing.


Welfare: Group A taking from Group B to give to Group C -
A looks good, B doesn&#39;t know, C expects but later regrets when they are B

Private Charity: Group B gives to Group C -
A is jealous, B look good, C is thankful.

Practically the same?

[Decolonize The Left]

Welfare: Group A taking from Group B to give to Group C -
A looks good, B doesn&#39;t know, C expects but later regrets when they are B

Rather simplistic...


Private Charity: Group B gives to Group C -
A is jealous, B look good, C is thankful.


Variable A was not introduced prior to "A is jealous".



Practically the same?

Yup. Welfare is governmental charity.
Neither help in the long run.

-- August

[quincunx5]

Rather simplistic...


Yes, describing a phenomena with nearly 300 million people is bound to be simplistic.



Variable A was not introduced prior to "A is jealous".


That&#39;s because A didn&#39;t do anything. But we all know, that today, A is always there.



Yup. Welfare is governmental charity.
Neither help in the long run.


Welfare is governmental charity based on coersion.

So how would your idea of a gift economy work? How is communism not based on &#39;charity&#39;?

I suppose you will just get around this problem by calling it something other than &#39;charity&#39;? You guys always get around serious issues by just putting different labels, I expect no less from you.

[Commie Girl]

This update just in from MacLeans (http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/world/article.jsp?content=20050926_112690_112690)


Will poor black evacuees ever want to leave Frank Stronach&#39;s Palm Beach paradise?

KATE FILLION

For Dion Houston, a slight 43-year-old with a gold tooth and the jaunty air of a pirate, hurricane Katrina has been "a blessing," even a holiday of sorts. Since leaving his flooded New Orleans apartment, he "found &#036;2,000 just floating in the water," quit smoking crack, and finally proposed to his 25-year-old girlfriend, Miata Gipson, who is six months pregnant. Plus, they&#39;ve been given a new TV, a closet full of clothes, "everything for the baby except the baby," a free day trip to Lion Country Safari, US&#036;600 from the Red Cross which helped pay for an engagement ring -- and, oh yeah, the promise of jobs and a new, furnished home.

"Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God&#39;s world as a mistake," is how Houston explains this turn of events. Or, to put it another way: timing is everything. Things are turning out so well for the couple mainly because they ignored the evacuation order and stayed in New Orleans for six days after the levees broke, camping in an abandoned house and eating "barbecued rabbit, barbecued chicken, barbecued alligator caught by some neighbourhood guy" that Houston rates only "Okay, not as good as if I&#39;d boiled it." But on the seventh day, "The Spirit spoke to me and said it was time to go," says Houston. "We walk out the door and within 10 minutes the National Guard picked us up, and we were headed to a plane to go to Montgomery, Alabama."





What happened next, even the Spirit might find hard to fathom: they won the equivalent of the evacuee lottery. While tens of thousands of survivors were assigned flimsy cots in crowded stadiums, Houston and Gipson, along with 210 others, set off on a long bus ride that ended at a lush 304-acre horse training compound in Palm Beach County -- yes, that Palm Beach, the old-money Florida resort where gated homes still have service entrances -- owned by Magna Entertainment Corp.

Frank Stronach, Magna&#39;s founder and chairman, had sent a trio of high-ranking employees to Montgomery to convince the Red Cross to let him turn Palm Meadows Thoroughbred Training Center into a shelter until the season begins on Nov. 1. Initially skeptical -- who was this Stronach guy, anyway? -- officials agreed, and randomly selected evacuees for the new facility, built to house jockeys, trainers, and up to 1,424 horses.

Now, Palm Meadows is a peaceful place. At night, frogs hop from the well-lit paths to the 17-acre man-made lake, and crickets are the main source of noise. The vast majority of the evacuees are black and all are poor; some had just taken their first plane trip, and most were a little freaked out to find themselves in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by teary-eyed white volunteers. "People were saying, &#39;It&#39;s a camp, like a concentration camp,&#39; " recalls Percy Matthews, a 55-year-old amateur preacher with a habit of squinting his left eye shut when he&#39;s thinking hard. "I said, &#39;You&#39;ll see, we be free.&#39; "

The mood improved considerably after the guests -- there are no "refugees" at Palm Meadows -- had had a chance to look around in the light of day. It is, almost certainly, the most comfortable shelter in the United States: four pleasant three-storey buildings face a massive courtyard with exotic plants, picnic tables and a volleyball court. Each private room has two twin beds, a microwave, refrigerator and ensuite bathroom, and though the decor is no-frills, everything is meticulously clean. Nearby, there&#39;s a pavilion with a large cafeteria and shaded outdoor seating, along with medical staff and computer rooms where volunteers fill in Federal Emergency Management Agency forms and search the Internet for missing relatives.

"This place is like heaven," sighs Matthews, who&#39;s sitting in the shade of a palm tree making notes for a Bible study group. "It&#39;s beautiful, and I don&#39;t hear the words I hear back home, how people talk to one another, cursing, killing, robbing, begging, and hanging on the corner, drinking 24/7 and selling drugs, pants down they knees, sagging." Watching some of the 30 kids at the shelter tear around on donated bikes, Matthews says, "This is like taking a little puppy and bringing him to another part of a town. And when he gets out there, he runs around and everything because he knows he&#39;s in a different atmosphere -- some of &#39;em here wasn&#39;t eating three times a day, some of &#39;em wasn&#39;t sleeping in a bed."

Despite the trauma of the flood, and the fact that they&#39;ve lost what little they had, something of a holiday atmosphere prevails at Palm Meadows. Sports stars and politicians drop by. Families are reunited. And on Sept. 9, Stronach himself appeared in the cafeteria and told the cheering crowd he knew what they felt like -- he&#39;d arrived in Canada hungry, with only a few dollars in his pocket -- and would create a village for them in Louisiana, complete with mobile homes and the opportunity to learn a trade, where he&#39;d support them for five years. "It&#39;s like Wheel of Fortune," marvels Melissa Ann Wilkerson, a homeless 36-year-old nursing assistant and mother of six. "I must say, I&#39;ve had a change of opinion toward white people. I thought they were mean and superior, stuck-up. Here, they&#39;re giving, kind, not judgmental."

Too giving, grumble some professional relief workers. Although Palm Meadows is operated in conjunction with the Red Cross, which provides food, nurses and mental health workers, there are also hundreds of local volunteers providing extras. For starters, guests have all been given new TVs with built-in VCRs, and outings to local tourist attractions. "One person wanted to donate three cars, but how would we decide who got them? He said, &#39;So how many cars do you need?&#39;" says Robin McPartland, a Magna employee who has fielded hundreds of calls. "We&#39;ve had at least two dozen calls from people offering vacant houses, lots of people offering jobs, all kinds of bikes, someone wants them to come to their restaurant, a country club wants to hold a banquet. Oh, and someone gave 800 condoms."

And then there is the daily mountain of clothes, shoes, toiletries, household items, and toys. By the end of the first week, the shelter had sent away five full truckloads of "excess." A cadre of volunteers has pulled together an enormous, well-ordered storeroom called "Katrina&#39;s Kloset," where one day last week the free merchandise included a yellow linen suit perfect for a lady who lunches, a neon flowered tie redolent of Woodstock, and a table full of new irons. If people can&#39;t find what they need -- a size 11 pair of women&#39;s shoes, say -- a volunteer is deputized to go buy it.

Retail therapy has never looked quite like this in Palm Beach County, with scores of wealthy whites anxious to wait on poor blacks. "We just got some new skirts in, Banana Republic," one wiry matron enthuses to a young woman with elaborate hair extensions, while a heavy-set woman with an armload of dresses considers a gold bracelet adorned with pink flowers. "Take one&#33;" urges a volunteer. "As many as you want." A dapper-looking man in his 40s lugs out a large plastic bag full of shorts and polo shirts. "Can&#39;t resist," he says, ruefully. "I gotta go in there every day, there&#39;s always new stuff."

There&#39;s so much that tote bags and luggage are sought-after items, and the customer-is-always-right attitude sometimes goes a little far. "I came in yesterday and asked for a CD player," one woman politely told a volunteer. "Is it here yet?" The volunteer assured her not to worry, it was coming.

The driving force behind Katrina&#39;s Kloset is Bambi Deanto, a stay-at-home mom from wealthy Boca Raton whose previous volunteer experience consisted of fundraising for her kids&#39; public school. "When they walked off that bus, these people were in the only clothes they owned," says Deanto, a tanned, petite woman with so much energy she almost seems to vibrate. "But now, once they&#39;ve gotten cleaned up and they feel like human beings again, they&#39;re turning out to be some of the most wonderful, generous, kind-hearted people really that I&#39;ve ever met. There&#39;s no prejudice here, that&#39;s for sure."

Many guests agree, and have developed such a liking for the area, despite the fact that they have seen little of it, that they&#39;re thinking of staying. The job board in the cafeteria advertises positions specifically open to survivors, ranging from fast-food jobs to construction work; some employers also offer free accommodations. "This place isn&#39;t racist," says Dion Houston. "A lady in line at Wal-Mart just handed us a &#036;50 gift card and said, &#39;For the baby,&#39; then walked off before we even got her name."

It would be a different story on ritzy Worth Avenue in Palm Beach. "I think people would be nice," says one volunteer, "if they knew they were hurricane survivors." And if they were mistaken for locals? "I&#39;m not sure," she said doubtfully.

In fact, racial tensions flare frequently in Palm Beach County, where de facto segregation persists and only 65 km of lonely highway lined with sugar cane separate Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trump&#39;s gaudy palace, from Belle Glade, a town of 15,000 with high rates of AIDS infection and violent crime, and a black per capita income that is only about two-thirds that of New Orleans. On a recent Saturday night, as dealers signalled from the corner and loud rap pounded from crumbling low-rise apartments with boarded-up windows, a 33-year-old man who would identify himself only as Larry Joe said, "They&#39;re giving out clothes and houses over there? You shittin&#39; me? Man, we need help right here."

But the poor blacks of Belle Glade and West Palm Beach, where faded signs on the housing projects warn "No trespassing, no prostituting, no sale of drugs or paraphernalia," simply aren&#39;t on anyone&#39;s radar. "Yes, we know there are low income people surrounding us, but I don&#39;t know -- maybe the need is not as visible, or our eyes are not there. We&#39;re kind of used to it," says Deanto. Looking around the pavilion, where survivors are lounging outside after a dinner of ham, collard greens and potatoes, she says, "They are kind of the chosen people, and maybe with my Jewish background, being one of the chosen people, maybe some of us can relate on that level."

Not surprisingly, when other survivors hear about Palm Meadows, there is disbelief, then resentment. Late one evening, Teddy Bolan, 30, stood in the parking lot of Palm Meadows, where his aunt is a guest, cradling his infant son while his nine-year-old daughter swatted mosquitoes. "My wife and I left New Orleans before the flood in a rental car, because of the kids. We did the right thing, but now we can&#39;t get FEMA on the phone and the Red Cross has said it will only rent us a tiny hotel room for a couple of days. And then we come here, and we see . . ." His voice trails off.

So does he want to come to Palm Meadows? "I&#39;m a working man," he says. "A lot of these people, they&#39;ve never worked. I mean, there are gang members in there. I heard this one dude tell his little girl, a sweet little girl, maybe 8, &#39;Yo *****, get inside.&#39; I don&#39;t think I&#39;m better than nobody else. I just want better for my kids."

However, Percy Matthews believes people at Palm Meadows "know how God brought them out, and everybody&#39;s got closer. All that hollering and slapping kids on the side of the head, jerking their arms, yelling "sit down," being rough -- gone. And when they sit down and eat, they laughing and talking. It&#39;s a big change." And a permanent one, he says, because "Mr. Frank is making an investment in us, he&#39;s going to teach us how to value a dollar, how to save, how to work."

New details of Stronach&#39;s plan emerge daily. On Sept. 11, he paid US&#036;1.6 million for 1,500 acres of land 325 km northwest of New Orleans in Marksville, La., population 5,695. He&#39;s also bought 60 fully furnished, three-bedroom mobile homes so far, and sent teams of sewage experts and contractors to ready the property for occupancy in four weeks. Marksville was chosen because it&#39;s on high ground, close to several other towns, and relatively close to New Orleans, all of which will, or so Magna officials presume, make it appealing to survivors. What&#39;s more, the soil is good.

Yes, the soil. Stronach has decided to bankroll a farming community, an idea that may surprise Palm Meadows survivors, who think they are going to trade school. Why farming? "I think many of them lived a little off the land, some of them scrounged things," Stronach said in a phone interview. Dennis Mills, a Magna Entertainment vice-chairman, elaborates, "He is absolutely determined to create a family farm environment where those people can experience the joy of sustaining themselves through growing vegetables and fruit, raising chickens and pigs, and so forth."

And how will city dwellers learn all that? Talks are under way with a local agricultural school, and Stronach plans to contact "black experienced farmers that live down there, make a special deal with them, say, &#39;Look, teach your brothers and sisters how to farm.&#39; To farm, you need equipment, you need good land, an infrastructure. But each year, we&#39;ll give them a little less, and by the fifth year they could be self-supporting, they could have fruit trees, make jam, the younger ones would go to school, and would learn computers."

In Phase One, there will be 300 inhabitants, including survivors from other shelters. Palm Meadows survivors will have first dibs, because "we basically adopted those people," says Stronach, but those who don&#39;t want to farm won&#39;t be cut off. Not yet, anyway. "We will help them for a while, give them a little money, then they would have to find their way. We can&#39;t hold their hands forever."

How many of those currently at Palm Meadows will want to relocate to rural Louisiana is unclear, but other companies, both Canadian and American, have pledged to help, and Stronach vows to make the place a model for eradicating poverty. Local officials are enthusiastic, Mills says, and impressed that Stronach doesn&#39;t stand to profit. (The money for all this comes from a part of Magna&#39;s budget dedicated to social spending.)

It&#39;s not difficult to imagine, however, that local blacks might resent Stronach&#39;s survivors and their new opportunities. Demographically, Marksville has a lot in common with Belle Glade: it&#39;s small and rural, and blacks, who comprise about 40 per cent of the population, are extraordinarily impoverished even by Louisiana standards, with a per capita income of only US&#036;5,554.

And there are tough questions ahead for Stronach&#39;s team. For instance, the Marksville district attorney wondered in an email to Mills whether "convictions of felonies or illegal drug activity on the premises may require eviction." The truth is, although they are busy making plans for them, there&#39;s a lot Magna officials don&#39;t know about the 195 people still at Palm Meadows. "Cotton was king, now it&#39;s the penal system that&#39;s the big money-maker in New Orleans," is how one well-spoken 41-year-old in an expensive golf shirt explains his three stints in prison. "I was wrongfully accused all three times." Others, like Houston, have ongoing struggles with drugs and alcohol.

Many of the most enterprising, the ones who seem to have the ability to become community leaders, have no intention of going to Marksville. "It ain&#39;t that I don&#39;t want to go, just that I have a better opportunity here," says Vernon Ramsey, a 48-year-old who&#39;s already landed a temporary job doing yardwork. "I know I&#39;m going to be okay here, I&#39;ve always worked. A lot of these people, they&#39;re used to being on welfare. This is a vacation for a lot of &#39;em."

The long-term success rate of utopian communities is not encouraging, nor is the fact that some residents have used their Red Cross debit cards to buy jewellery and portable stereos, figuring that Stronach or FEMA will provide whatever else they need. But it&#39;s also true that no prior commune has been led by a self-made billionaire with the resourcefulness to commandeer buses and rescue some 200 people while their own President did nothing.

And many believe Mr. Frank has already changed more than their circumstances. "Down there at the village," says Percy Matthews, "we all going to be just like sisters and brothers. If one don&#39;t have, the other help, because everybody can&#39;t have a car, everybody ain&#39;t going to have no bread on the table."

[Ultra-Violence]

Because it is done on a consensual basis. Would you agree anything consensual is ok?





what Do you mean by consensaul&#33; are you saying that its ok as long as they only expliot once in a while?

? :(