North Korea

[Reds]

Is it socialist now and if not can it become socialist?

[Phalanx]

Well, in Socialism I always thought the government cared about the people. So this is definately not North Korea's case. They were lead by a self-obsessed douche from the beginning, and it hasn't changed. Of course, any country can become socialist, it just is a matter of obtaining that goal. For example, the US is very anti-socialist not only in our government but in our society. Trying to convince people that socialism is a good thing would be difficult here. North Korea may think they live in socialism, so a transition towards real socialism may not be too difficult.

[bolshevik butcher]

Well it certainly isnt anywhere near socialism now. I suppose anywhere could go soiclaist but here would be one of the most difficult places as when people think about osiclaism they invisage a totlitarian regiem like the ones that rules now.

[Stellix]

The DPRK is socialist. Stop calling it North Korea as the imperialists do.

[risky.riot]

The DPRK is socialist.

Personally, I think that it is most unfortunate how most most socialist countries have not really gotten past dictatorships. I mean, believe me, I love Cuba a lot, but in all honesty, it is a dictatorship; there is one man who basically has complete control of the party. Fortunately for Cuba, Castro actually serves the people, unlike the government in Korea. How can you even try and say what you did after reading that whole thing written by Genghis Khan? I mean, you can't really argue with his arguement except for maybe his remark about Kim Jung being a douche... that's not very nice :(.


Stop calling it North Korea as the imperialists do.

Dude, honestly, that's like an American asking people not to refer to the United States of America as the USA because it's all communist drabble. It doesn't make any sense to say that calling North Korea is imperialistic since it is simply the conventional short name of the country; just like how Britain is the short name for Great Britain or how France is really just short for the French Republic. Hell, you don't hear any French people complaining about people calling their country "France" or British people calling their nation "Britain." If you are simply looking to make yourself look somehow smarter or just cooler by going and making that remark, that sucks man because Mission Failed. :P

[viva le revolution]

The DPRK is not socialist in any sense of the word and personally i do not support Kim Jong Il, however i do accept the fact that the DPRK suffers from an enourmous amount of negative propaganda. Many do not really see the true face of north korea and often assume the worst based on the picture of the country painted by the media. The truth is somewhere in between. Stuff can't be all bad in North Korea, even the majority of the population in the south support north korea and seek unification without the U.S involved. If it was the hellhole as portrayed in the media, then this would not be the case and the people in the south would show their compassion for their neighbours by calling for the ouster of the Juche regime instead calling on the U.S to back off.
The north is weak economically not because Kim enjoys starving his people, but because it is under isolation by the U.S, suffers from sanctions etc. Not to mention it is forced to spend increasing amounts of money to counter-act the vastly superior south korean military and the U.S forces stationed along the DMZ border. Not to mention it suffers from periodic famines.
Keep in mind that "civilized" world and the capitalistic powers have an immense role in the suffering of the north korean people. It is extremely unfair to blame Kim alone in this, that's like saying that Castro enjoys keeping Cuba poor despite the embargo.

[CubaSocialista]

Look this up.

In 1976, a new "constitution" for North Korea was written, and Marxism-Leninism, (the only bit of it left was its name) was taken out completely, and replaced with the "Juche" ideal, which believes man is the center of everything, yet the DPRK practices nothing short of FEUDALISM.

The DPRK is socialist, but not Marxist socialist, or Marxist-Leninist socialist. It is Juche socialist. If you consider the DPRK to be a Communist country, then you would have to agree that Libya (People's Arab Socialist Jamahiriya) and Iraq (Saddam years) as well as Syria under the same Party (the Baath Party) are communist.

The DPRK is anti-imperialist, by all means. However, if they held the firepower that the US has, they'd be just as crazy and brutal. People are slaughtered like ants so one playboy can have his way. He makes good quotes, but he doesn't practice anything resembling what he preaches. The DPRK, from a Marxist perspective, hasn't even been able to go into a bourgeois capitalist stage yet, it's just feudal. They may be an ally of convenience in this struggle, but nothing more than that. Kim Jong Il is mad.

On a lighter note,
Not "mad" in the cool way, which is humorous and brutally(unneccessarily brutal) psychotic (also a cool word). This kind of mad would be represented by a raving psychopath wearing a monocle and tophat while sentencing people to death by sporks, hurls cats at large objects, or smokes mammals in gigantic bongs.

Kim Jong-Il is mad in the Adolf Hitler-Brutal-Reactionary sense.
And his views on women and the establishment in Pyongyang of his and his fathers little clique of nobility aren't socialist in any sense. Juche is warped Stalinistic Anti-Revisionism that has degraded so badly that it is simply a regime of its own insane ideology.

[CubaSocialista]

Author: John Walsh
Published on: March 24, 2005

Juche has become one of the world’s newest and most strongly held religions - or perhaps it should be considered a form of philosophy instead. It exists only in one country, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) and all the people of that country, so it is said, follow that belief system and no other. So what is it?

Juche is a form of philosophy created by Kim Il Sung, who was the first president of North Korea and who organised a personality cult around himself and his family to promote his ideas. Originally, juche referred to the age-old Korean virtue of self-reliance, which is a quality that had been relied upon through the long centuries of self-enforced isolation that saw Korea being named the ‘Hermit Kingdom.’ This was updated by Kim Il-Sung to include aspects of Marxism-Leninism and Maoist thought but, later, also to downplay these influences when relations with the Soviet Union or with China became problematic, as happened from time to time.

Although juche is considered to be a uniquely Korean conception, it is also held to be applicable to all developing nations and their desire to achieve a state of true independence – free, that is, of the actions and desires of any other state.

As well as the political elements, juche also includes Confucian ideas. These are traditional ways of thinking that are based on the works of Confucius, often rather loosely (read more on Confucius here http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1817... They involve the promotion of family values and support for parents, the need for diligence and self-sacrifice and the lack of interest in material possessions. These are all important aspects of the North Korean political system, which has so badly failed to provide any form of progress for its people or, indeed, even to feed them.

Traditionalist juche thinking stresses that although mankind is the master of its own destiny, it is guided by a collective unconsciousness that is rooted in the person of the Great Leader. This is the title that was used most commonly by Kim Il-Sung and his successor, Kim Jong-Il, has taken the title of Dear Leader. This idea therefore supports the personality cult that means that every North Korean is obliged to study the life and thought of both generations of leader or, at least, the versions of their lives and times that are being officially disseminated. It also demonstrates the need to keep conditions in the outside world secret from the people because, if they could see how much better off people elsewhere were, they would certainly question the ability of the Leader and then juche belief could collapse.

Although Kim Jong-Il appears almost certainly to have participated in supporting terrorist incidents and the country has made a trade of medium-range missiles and may or may not have some form of nuclear capability (which is very unlikely to work properly even if present), there is no sense that the North Korean people have any desire or interest in oppressing the people of other countries. Indeed, juche teaches them to ignore what other people are doing and concentrate instead on redoubling their own efforts to develop their own lives and society.

Juche is in some ways an admirable idea but it is impossible in the modern, interdependent world in which what happens in one country affects people in every other country. This is not just a question of trade and economics but also the environment and the climate. We cannot escape our responsibilities to the rest of the world.

[Stellix]

How can so many self proclaimed Marxists be so uninformed about the DPRK? :huh:

[Reds]

why dont you enliten us then?

[Camarada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 12:39 AM
Is it socialist now and if not can it become socialist?
It never was. Though it can through a real revolution against Kim Jong Il, a brutal dictator

[Camarada]

hmm

[Camarada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 10:13 PM
How can so many self proclaimed Marxists be so uninformed about the DPRK? :huh:
Uninformed about what? yes, please enlighten us.

[Scars]

The DPRK have formed their own brand of militant, strange quasi-Socialism. It is true that they have removed all references to Marxist-Leninism from their constitution and they have replaced them with Juche, which they claim is the next logical step on from ML.

I don't agree with their stance or their ideology and I don't much care for their leadership- past of present. The PLP does not endorce or support the DPRK. However I think that they should be supported on a limited basis as part of a wider anti-Imperialist agenda.

[Reds]

Hear is the Government of the DPRK views it's self.

http://www.kcckp.net/en/index.php

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 10:26 PM
How can so many self proclaimed Marxists be so uninformed about the DPRK? :huh:
:lol:

The country is run by a totalitarian dictator, there's that whole personality cult going on, there's little to no democracy(workplace or political), and country spends a ridiculous amount of money on its military... Care to explain how this relates at all to Marx ideas? I'd like you to cite some specific works in explaining this, just to be sure we're on the same page here.

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

Perhaps some of you should try realising you're living in a enemy state of the DPRK's.

[Colombia]

What does that have to do with anything we are talking about?

[bolshevik butcher]

We're also living in an enemy state of lots of other dictators. Iran for instance, are we going to heil them as socialist heroes.

We live in enemy states of venezuela and cuba, and yet i support them.

[SweatyJerry]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 09:01 PM
Author: John Walsh
Published on: March 24, 2005

Juche has become one of the world’s newest and most strongly held religions - or perhaps it should be considered a form of philosophy instead. It exists only in one country, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) and all the people of that country, so it is said, follow that belief system and no other. So what is it?

Juche is a form of philosophy created by Kim Il Sung, who was the first president of North Korea and who organised a personality cult around himself and his family to promote his ideas. Originally, juche referred to the age-old Korean virtue of self-reliance, which is a quality that had been relied upon through the long centuries of self-enforced isolation that saw Korea being named the ‘Hermit Kingdom.’ This was updated by Kim Il-Sung to include aspects of Marxism-Leninism and Maoist thought but, later, also to downplay these influences when relations with the Soviet Union or with China became problematic, as happened from time to time.

Although juche is considered to be a uniquely Korean conception, it is also held to be applicable to all developing nations and their desire to achieve a state of true independence – free, that is, of the actions and desires of any other state.

As well as the political elements, juche also includes Confucian ideas. These are traditional ways of thinking that are based on the works of Confucius, often rather loosely (read more on Confucius here http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1817... They involve the promotion of family values and support for parents, the need for diligence and self-sacrifice and the lack of interest in material possessions. These are all important aspects of the North Korean political system, which has so badly failed to provide any form of progress for its people or, indeed, even to feed them.

Traditionalist juche thinking stresses that although mankind is the master of its own destiny, it is guided by a collective unconsciousness that is rooted in the person of the Great Leader. This is the title that was used most commonly by Kim Il-Sung and his successor, Kim Jong-Il, has taken the title of Dear Leader. This idea therefore supports the personality cult that means that every North Korean is obliged to study the life and thought of both generations of leader or, at least, the versions of their lives and times that are being officially disseminated. It also demonstrates the need to keep conditions in the outside world secret from the people because, if they could see how much better off people elsewhere were, they would certainly question the ability of the Leader and then juche belief could collapse.

Although Kim Jong-Il appears almost certainly to have participated in supporting terrorist incidents and the country has made a trade of medium-range missiles and may or may not have some form of nuclear capability (which is very unlikely to work properly even if present), there is no sense that the North Korean people have any desire or interest in oppressing the people of other countries. Indeed, juche teaches them to ignore what other people are doing and concentrate instead on redoubling their own efforts to develop their own lives and society.

Juche is in some ways an admirable idea but it is impossible in the modern, interdependent world in which what happens in one country affects people in every other country. This is not just a question of trade and economics but also the environment and the climate. We cannot escape our responsibilities to the rest of the world.
You could be considered admirable if it was effectively implemented in a counry large enough to actually support the idea. With the amount of arable land availible in the DPRK (not nearly enough to feed their population), Juche is nothing short of psychotic and criminal.

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 09:30 AM
Perhaps some of you should try realising you're living in a enemy state of the DPRK's.
oshit. thx 4 da info, bro

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

On wikipedia, if you scrounge around, there's a link to GoogleEarth images of their labor camps.

I think of Kim Jung-Il as prime political satire material, and I am using him as a character in my monologue. I picture him as a sort of spoiled brat encased in a wrinkly guy.

[refuse_resist]

For those unfamiliar with the DPRK and Juche, I would recommend reading Kim Il-Sung's works.

http://www.kancc.org/english/board/board.p...main_img_code=6 (http://www.kancc.org/english/board/board.php?start=40&mode=&field=&s_que=&code=en_kis&mnum=6&main_img_code=6)

[More Fire for the People]

In short a programme for a socialist DPRK would be factored around three reforms,
1. More frequent elections and holding more true to popular election, recall, and responsibility
2. Increased criticism and self-criticism of the Party
3. A system of economic modernisation for the DPRK is a neccessity, specifically electrification of the whole country and the development of industries.

This is change in political system, economy, and the Party.

The reforms in the political system are important to the survival of the revolution as the fires are starting to die after the long years without criticism. The KWP needs to gain more memberships of the masses and focus on creating a balance between the party line and the mass line. The system needs to become open to self-criticism and criticism and handle contradictions of society more appropriately.

There is a huge fault in the DPRK’s political system: the legislative and executive branches are too dysfunctional and unassociated. The DPRK must fundamentally be reformed to assign all legislators into positions to administrate the law. In addition, the parliament must change to hold more frequent elections (as of now elections are held every ten years, usually) on the order of every three to five years and the legislators must be accountable, responsible, recallable, and popularly elected.

The economic program of the Korean Workers’ Party is an absolute necessity as the obsolete program of advancing agriculture has far proven itself ineffective and without a democratized party and criticism, this program has remained unchanged and caused economic disaster.

The first task of the KWP in the creation of a new economic program is the modernization of the economy in preparation for socialism. This means the DPRK must establish several key industries, especially in rural areas: iron and steel production, textile production, and chemical industries.

In the development of the DPRK’s industry, the KWP cannot forget the need of a modernized agricultural system as well. The need of sustainable agriculture is a must and the DPRK must invest in large collective farms that are centered on chicken, pork, beef, maize, rice, wheat, and potatoes.

From this, the growth of the economy is inevitable to the point where the DPRK could eventually abandon the need of building the economy and start sharing resources with China, Laos, Vietnam, and Cuba.

The second task of the KWP’s program is to centralize the economy. Marx and Engels realized the need for centralization of the economy for any progress to be made as early 1848. Through centralization of industries, under the administration of national congresses of workers in each trade, the state can overcome the difficulties of unequal wealth and natural resource distribution.

The third task is democratization of the economy. The necessity of central planning does not outweigh the rights of workers and worker representation. Local business must come under the administration of workers’ councils and every industry should have a national congress to convene every few years or so.

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

I fucking hate this deep economics discussion.

[Scars]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:36 AM
I fucking hate this deep economics discussion.
Well, a large part of Communism is economics and Marx considered himself an economist...so maybe you should start brushing up on your economics, as it is kinda vital to the whole ideology.

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:45 PM


Personally, I think that it is most unfortunate how most most socialist countries have not really gotten past dictatorships. I mean, believe me, I love Cuba a lot, but in all honesty, it is a dictatorship; there is one man who basically has complete control of the party. Fortunately for Cuba, Castro actually serves the people, unlike the government in Korea.
As for Cuba, sovereignty resides in the people. Over 97% of the people eligible to vote, vote in an electoral system which serves to nominate and then elect those best suited to fulfill their position. There are three Assemblies: the Municipal Assembly, the Provincial Assembly, and the National Assembly. In the Municipal Assembly, neighbors nominate their candidates who are finally selected by secret ballot vote by the entire constituency. The fact that candidates are not nominated by the Communist Party but by the people themselves, itself marks the democratic nature of the process. In the same way, the election of the members for the Provincial and National Assemblies are selected by secret ballot vote by the people directly. The last electoral process in Cuba began in June 1997 and finished on Feb. 24th, 1998. The previous election took place 5 years earlier, 1992/1993. The election process has two phases: it consists of (1) electing the delegates for the Municipal Assembly, and (2) electing the deputies to the Provincial and National Assemblies.

For more about the Cuba truth project http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 03:01 PM
Author: John Walsh
Published on: March 24, 2005

Juche has become one of the world’s newest and most strongly held religions
This is kinda interesting, but who is John Walsh and where did this come from? A link or cite would be nice.

[kingbee]

offically there a more juche followers than jews. i suppose juchers (?) cant complain about not having a homeland!

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by wet blanket+Sep 20 2005, 08:12 AM--> (wet blanket @ Sep 20 2005, 08:12 AM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 10:26 PM
How can so many self proclaimed Marxists be so uninformed about the DPRK? :huh:
:lol:

The country is run by a totalitarian dictator, there's that whole personality cult going on, there's little to no democracy(workplace or political), and country spends a ridiculous amount of money on its military... Care to explain how this relates at all to Marx ideas? I'd like you to cite some specific works in explaining this, just to be sure we're on the same page here. [/b]
Exactly. The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is as much a Democratic People's Republic as the Nazis were Socialist!