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GoaRedStar
5th September 2005, 19:09
This is a article on counterpunch and I will like to see what you all think about it.


Labor Day Edition
September 5, 2005
The Vicious Downward Cycle of the American Economy
Resurrecting Karl Marx

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

Libertarians and free trade economists don't realize it, but they are pulling Marx out of his grave.

Free traders are resurrecting class war, not because they are Marxists but because they confuse free trade with global labor arbitrage. Free traders turn cold shoulders to US job losses from offshore outsourcing, because they mistake the losses for the beneficial workings of comparative advantage. Committed to a 200 year old theory that they no longer understand, free traders are cheering on the destruction of middle class jobs and the dismantling of the ladders of upward mobility that make large income disparities politically acceptable.

The destruction of the stabilizing middle class is occurring simultaneously with an extraordinary increase in income inequalities. Not so long ago CEOs were paid 20 times more than the average employee; now some are paid hundreds of times more. The "gilded age" is returning while the value of a college degree is declining.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' 10-year jobs forecast, the majority of US jobs that will be created in the coming decade will be in domestic services that do not require a college education. This is a strange job outlook for a high tech economy allegedly benefitting from free trade. Domestic services are nontradable. The US economy has not created a net new job in tradable goods and services in the 21st century.

Free trade economists have forgotten that not all trade reflects the beneficial workings of comparative advantage. For comparative advantage to function, a country's capital must stay at home and be allocated to activities in which the country has comparative advantage. The other necessary condition is that countries have different internal cost ratios of producing different goods.

When the principle of comparative advantage was discovered, capital was mainly kept at home under the watchful eye of the owners and protected by the country's laws. Tradable commodities were primarily products influenced by climate and geography, guaranteeing that the cost of a yard of wool in terms of a bottle of wine would vary among countries.

Today capital is more mobile than tradable goods. Modern production functions are based on acquired knowledge and produce identical results regardless of location. When a US corporation closes a factory in Ohio and relocates its production for US markets to China, the loss of US jobs is not the result of a Chinese firm gaining a comparative advantage over the Ohio one. It is the result of US capital seeking absolute advantage in lower cost Chinese labor.

Free trade economists have completely forgotten that the flow of resources to where they have absolute advantage does not result in mutual benefit. The country that receives the resources gains and the other country loses.

When capital and technology flow from the US to China and India, the productivity of labor in China and India rises. In the US it falls.

Outsourcing is eliminating entire American occupations in engineering and information technology. As there are fewer jobs for graduates, engineering enrollments in the US are declining. Libertarians and free traders are so emotionally enamored of the market that they have forgotten that markets can as easily work against a country as for it. In the US, markets are working to reduce the supply of American engineers as US corporations lay off their American employees and replace them with cheaper Chinese and Indians.

Product development, or research and development, follows manufacturing. As US manufacturing moves offshore, so does R&D.
Innovation follows R&D, with the consequence that US science is also in relative decline. In brief, the US is developing the labor force characteristics of a third world country in which jobs are available only in lower productivity, lower paid "hands on" domestic services.

For engineering and IT jobs that remain in the US, fewer are filled by Americans. US firms have learned that they can pay foreigners on H-1B and L-1 work visas lower salaries, force their American employees to train their foreign replacements, and then discharge their American workers. Consequently, there is double-digit unemployment among American software engineers, IT professionals and computer programmers.

As Lou Dobbs exposed recently on CNN, the US Department of Labor is currently reserving some 52,000 high tech job openings in US firms for H-1B visa holders. "Bodyshops" use the visas to bring in foreigners who take Americans' jobs by undercutting their pay.

American firms advertise openings for H-1B visa holders only. No Americans need apply. Gene Koprowski in TechNewsWorld (August 20) reports that "in excess of 600,000 new visas have been granted during the last five years. Thirty-nine percent of H-1B visas were for workers in computer-related occupations."

In other words, 600,000 Americans lost the occupations in which they have invested their human capital. You can be assured that these 600,000 did not move up to better jobs.

As bad as it is for the individuals, it is even more costly for the country. The outsourcing of jobs and the importation of foreigners on work visas are emptying the pipeline of qualified Americans and destroying US technical occupations. It is paradoxical to hear the very executives who replaced their US employees with foreigners now complain about the declining interest of Americans in science and engineering. Last July Bill Gates expressed his worries about the precipitous decline in the number of students entering computer science. Why is Bill surprised when he helped to lead the offshore outsourcing movement?

Obviously, it is a vicious cycle. As Americans are discouraged from the occupations, the corporations lobby for more work visas, which discourages more Americans.

Seeking to protect their careers from being outsourced, Americans are turning to domestic services, such as nursing and teaching. However, H-1B visas threaten these occupations, too. Hospitals struggling with costs and school systems struggling with budgets are importing lower cost foreigners to teach American kids and care for American patients.

In Nevada the Clark County School District has imported teachers from the Philippines. Arizona has imported teachers from New Delhi, India. The New York Department of Education has brought teachers in from Jamaica. Cleveland, Ohio, has imported teachers from India. It goes on and on.

Joe Guzzardi has a good article posted on vdare.com about the use of foreign teachers in US schools. This practice raises many questions: Does the money saved on teachers' salaries go to administrators as bonuses for cost-cutting? How can foreigners from outside our culture enculturate American students? What happens to enrollments in US education and nursing curriculums as imported foreigners fill available positions? What happens to the laid off US engineers and technical people who are displaced again, this time from teaching math and science in our schools?

The pressure on school budgets comes from the lost middle class jobs. As manufacturing and now white collar work move out of US communities, tax revenues become more scarce. Administrators seek foreign employees who will work for less.

Eventually, all Americans will be working for less except the fat cats at the top, who will earn large bonuses by substituting foreigners for Americans.

What occupations will be left to native citizens? This question comes to me from many frustrated parents who are trying to give their children some career counseling. It is possible for Americans still to earn good incomes from being dentists and lawyers (if they are in the top 20% of their class). Next one thinks of skilled trades such as electrician, plumber and auto mechanic. However, Mexican immigrants are crowding Americans out of the construction trades and may soon dominate other trades as well.

Opportunity for native born Americans is collapsing. The loss of opportunity is showing up in declining median household income and rising poverty rate. On September 1, Edwin Rubenstein reported (vdare.com) that according to the Census Bureau's August 30 report, "median household income declined for an unprecedented fifth straight year in 2004." The main reason for declining household income, says the Economic Policy Institute, is "ongoing weakness in the job market."

HIgher paying jobs are being lost to outsourcing and to work visas. Lower paying jobs are being lost to Mexicans. With real income falling for five years (despite an economic recovery), the US poverty rate has climbed from 11.3% in 2000 to 12.7% in 2004, adding 5.4 million more persons to the poverty roll.

Yet, nothink free trade economists and libertarians--like LBJ who promised us light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam and Bush who promises light at the end of the tunnel in Iraq--still promise that outsourcing and H-1B visas mean increased wealth for Americans.

Economic science no longer exists in America. Its place has been taken by emotional commitments to dogmas. Americans and their hopes are daily paying the price for this great failure of economic thinking.

The August payroll jobs report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics repeats the consistent pattern of 21st century America--no net job creation in high productivity sectors. The only jobs created are in nontradable lower paid domestic services.

Of the 154,000 private nonfarm jobs created in August, 25,000 are in construction and are filled primarily by legal and illegal Mexican immigrants; 20,000 are in wholesale and retail trade; 16,000 in administrative and waste services; 43,000 in education and health services; 34,000 in leisure and hospitality (primarily waitresses and bartenders). Manufacturing lost another 14,000 jobs.

Brand name companies that once were symbols of US manufacturing are today assemblers of foreign made parts. An industry of assemblers has no need for engineers or scientists. The dismantling of the US economy cannot be corrected by education and job retraining. The US is on its way to becoming a third world country.

It is detrimental to the future of freedom that at this time, when our civil liberties are under attack by the Bush administration and diminishing economic opportunity is breathing new life into class war, libertarians and market economists are demonstrating more commitment to ideology than to the welfare of fellow citizens. By associating freedom and market solutions with policies that are eroding Americans' prospects, freedom's defenders are unwittingly stabbing freedom in the back.



Paul Craig Roberts has held a number of academic appointments and has contributed to numerous scholarly publications. He served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. His graduate economics education was at the University of Virginia, the University of California at Berkeley, and Oxford University.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts09052005.html

Publius
5th September 2005, 20:01
Let me preface this by saying, free trade has won. The fight is over, protectionism failed, and it's dead.

As bad as free-trade could ever possibly be, protectionism was FAR worse.


This is a article on counterpunch and I will like to see what you all think about it.


I think it blows.



Libertarians and free trade economists don't realize it, but they are pulling Marx out of his grave.

Free traders are resurrecting class war, not because they are Marxists but because they confuse free trade with global labor arbitrage. Free traders turn cold shoulders to US job losses from offshore outsourcing, because they mistake the losses for the beneficial workings of comparative advantage. Committed to a 200 year old theory that they no longer understand, free traders are cheering on the destruction of middle class jobs and the dismantling of the ladders of upward mobility that make large income disparities politically acceptable.

I think this entire paragraph is a joke.

Nothing really to respond to.


The destruction of the stabilizing middle class is occurring simultaneously with an extraordinary increase in income inequalities. Not so long ago CEOs were paid 20 times more than the average employee; now some are paid hundreds of times more. The "gilded age" is returning while the value of a college degree is declining.

I don't see how the 'gilded age' is returning at all.

That's specious at best, and even if it is true, what exactly does it mean?

The gilded age was a great time, comparing it to what America was like before.

Only now does it seem bad.


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' 10-year jobs forecast, the majority of US jobs that will be created in the coming decade will be in domestic services that do not require a college education. This is a strange job outlook for a high tech economy allegedly benefitting from free trade. Domestic services are nontradable. The US economy has not created a net new job in tradable goods and services in the 21st century.

The vast majority of jobs that are created PERIOD do not require a college degree.

You need more waiters and bartenders than computer programmers.

Why must we have jobs in 'tradable goods'?

There are only so many of said goods that can logically be produced.

If everyone were making toasters, we would quite simply have to many toasters.

EVERYONE can't be producing refridgerators and making a great wage doing so, that much is obvious. The real question is, should WE be making them, or should OTHERS be making them?

I say others.



Free trade economists have forgotten that not all trade reflects the beneficial workings of comparative advantage. For comparative advantage to function, a country's capital must stay at home and be allocated to activities in which the country has comparative advantage. The other necessary condition is that countries have different internal cost ratios of producing different goods.

Why must a countries capital stay at home?

Would America be richer today if it didnt globalize at all, compared to it's wealth FROM globalizing?

I seriously doubt it.

Wealth creation is predicated on the movement of capital to it's highest use, wherever that may be.


When the principle of comparative advantage was discovered, capital was mainly kept at home under the watchful eye of the owners and protected by the country's laws. Tradable commodities were primarily products influenced by climate and geography, guaranteeing that the cost of a yard of wool in terms of a bottle of wine would vary among countries.

Times change, economies change too.


Today capital is more mobile than tradable goods. Modern production functions are based on acquired knowledge and produce identical results regardless of location. When a US corporation closes a factory in Ohio and relocates its production for US markets to China, the loss of US jobs is not the result of a Chinese firm gaining a comparative advantage over the Ohio one. It is the result of US capital seeking absolute advantage in lower cost Chinese labor.

And what's the problem with this?



Free trade economists have completely forgotten that the flow of resources to where they have absolute advantage does not result in mutual benefit. The country that receives the resources gains and the other country loses.

So we aren't getting ANY resources out our trade?

The Chinese are taking their products and dumping them into the ocean!?

Oh, that's right, they're selling them back to us!

We ARE getting resources back.



When capital and technology flow from the US to China and India, the productivity of labor in China and India rises. In the US it falls.

And conversely, the (For lack of a better term) Consumptivity of America INCREASES.

We produce less but consume more. This is because the Chinese can produce for less.

So follow the logic here: More is wealth is produced, more wealth is consumed, so more wealth is created, so more people are getting wealthy!

If the capital stayed in America, LESS would be produced, LESS would be consumed and LESS wealth would be created.

Isn't it so fucking simple?

Globalization expands the number of producers and consumers and expands the total level of production and consumption thus it creates wealth.



Outsourcing is eliminating entire American occupations in engineering and information technology. As there are fewer jobs for graduates, engineering enrollments in the US are declining. Libertarians and free traders are so emotionally enamored of the market that they have forgotten that markets can as easily work against a country as for it. In the US, markets are working to reduce the supply of American engineers as US corporations lay off their American employees and replace them with cheaper Chinese and Indians.

Actually we need FAR more engineers, but the problem is Americans aren't getting the degree, so we HAVE to use Chinese or Indians to fill the positions.

Markets aren't reducing the supply of engineers, they're clamoring for MORE engineers.

Any is this guy some kind of xenophobic fuck?

What's wrong with people from other countries? Don't they deserve jobs?

Isn't there something immoral with hoarding all the wealth in America?

The argument is basically this: By spreading around the wealth, Americans get less of it.

THat's as selfish as you can possibly be!

"Sorry Lo Qing, you don't get to eat today because Paul Craig Roberts doesn't want to downsize from a BMW 525 to a 325."

That's the message I'm getting here.

Americans will become slightly less opulently wealthy but the Chinese and other poor will become FABULOUSLY wealthy, and this is a bad thing.

Disgusting.

This is likely the same type of hypocrite that decries the plight of the very same poor.



Product development, or research and development, follows manufacturing. As US manufacturing moves offshore, so does R&D.
Innovation follows R&D, with the consequence that US science is also in relative decline. In brief, the US is developing the labor force characteristics of a third world country in which jobs are available only in lower productivity, lower paid "hands on" domestic services.

Is he honestly arguing this?

R&D is not moving away at any rate.

I don't know where he's getting this from.

Scientists and the educated from other countries COME HERE for R&D work.

The facilities for the work don't exist anywhere but Europe.



For engineering and IT jobs that remain in the US, fewer are filled by Americans. US firms have learned that they can pay foreigners on H-1B and L-1 work visas lower salaries, force their American employees to train their foreign replacements, and then discharge their American workers. Consequently, there is double-digit unemployment among American software engineers, IT professionals and computer programmers.

Because during the '90's we educated FAR to many of these people.




As Lou Dobbs exposed recently on CNN, the US Department of Labor is currently reserving some 52,000 high tech job openings in US firms for H-1B visa holders. "Bodyshops" use the visas to bring in foreigners who take Americans' jobs by undercutting their pay.

"Go starve to death you bad foreigners, we have Anglo-Saxon luxery to uphold! Back to where you came from!"

And when these people go back to Indonesia and starve, who will be the person whining in his leftist rag about the injustive and unemployment?

This fuck.

And aren't the higher costs of employing those Americans manifested in higher production cost and thus higher cost in general?


American firms advertise openings for H-1B visa holders only. No Americans need apply. Gene Koprowski in TechNewsWorld (August 20) reports that "in excess of 600,000 new visas have been granted during the last five years. Thirty-nine percent of H-1B visas were for workers in computer-related occupations."

Sounds great to me.



In other words, 600,000 Americans lost the occupations in which they have invested their human capital. You can be assured that these 600,000 did not move up to better jobs.

Every time I read this sort of thing, my mind goes back to the industrial revolution and the destruction of the artisian class by it.

It seemed bad at the time, didn't it? But now, industrial production has made EVERYONE wealthier, to the point that artisian production seems utterly absurd.

Yes, the transition temporarily hurt those few artisians, but eventually it raised the net wealth of humanity by factors of 100.

Should we have halted the industrial revolution becaues some blacksmiths got the shaft?


As bad as it is for the individuals, it is even more costly for the country. The outsourcing of jobs and the importation of foreigners on work visas are emptying the pipeline of qualified Americans and destroying US technical occupations. It is paradoxical to hear the very executives who replaced their US employees with foreigners now complain about the declining interest of Americans in science and engineering. Last July Bill Gates expressed his worries about the precipitous decline in the number of students entering computer science. Why is Bill surprised when he helped to lead the offshore outsourcing movement?

He doesn't elucidate anything in this paragraph...



Obviously, it is a vicious cycle. As Americans are discouraged from the occupations, the corporations lobby for more work visas, which discourages more Americans.

So the problem is Americans don't have sufficient drive to work?



Seeking to protect their careers from being outsourced, Americans are turning to domestic services, such as nursing and teaching. However, H-1B visas threaten these occupations, too. Hospitals struggling with costs and school systems struggling with budgets are importing lower cost foreigners to teach American kids and care for American patients.

WHy say 'H-1B visas'? We know you really mean 'People of a different ethnicity/nationality' you xenophobic sack of shit.


In Nevada the Clark County School District has imported teachers from the Philippines. Arizona has imported teachers from New Delhi, India. The New York Department of Education has brought teachers in from Jamaica. Cleveland, Ohio, has imported teachers from India. It goes on and on.

I wonder just how many Counter-Punch articles exist on the benefits of multiculturalism...

Blatent hypocrisy.

Either you lefies like foreignors or you don't, which is it?

I think it's the latter with some white liberal guilt thrown in.

They support them as long as it doesn't mean they have to move down a tax bracket or suffer some hardship to help them out.



Joe Guzzardi has a good article posted on vdare.com about the use of foreign teachers in US schools. This practice raises many questions: Does the money saved on teachers' salaries go to administrators as bonuses for cost-cutting?

Government schools you say? The latter.


How can foreigners from outside our culture enculturate American students?

Probably through teaching, but hitting them might suffice.

I wasn't aware that people needed to be indoctrinated, I mean enculturated.

I thought you don't like American fast-food, consumer, chauvinist culture?

Because I don't.



What happens to enrollments in US education and nursing curriculums as imported foreigners fill available positions?

I would say it goes up.



What happens to the laid off US engineers and technical people who are displaced again, this time from teaching math and science in our schools?

They get other jobs.

I guess the cry is "More minorities in our schools! (As long as they aren't teachers).



The pressure on school budgets comes from the lost middle class jobs. As manufacturing and now white collar work move out of US communities, tax revenues become more scarce. Administrators seek foreign employees who will work for less.

The 'lost middle class'?

So poverty goes up a decimal point this year, the rich get more astoundingly rich, and suddenly there is no more middle class?

How can this be?

People aren't getting poorer, and the rich are getting fabulously richer, but tax revenue is going down?

Bullshit.

Tax revenue is generally going UP.

Property taxes mostly fund schools and look at housing prices.



Eventually, all Americans will be working for less except the fat cats at the top, who will earn large bonuses by substituting foreigners for Americans.

Yeah, I'm sure that's what will happen.

:rolleyes: :lol:


What occupations will be left to native citizens? This question comes to me from many frustrated parents who are trying to give their children some career counseling. It is possible for Americans still to earn good incomes from being dentists and lawyers (if they are in the top 20% of their class). Next one thinks of skilled trades such as electrician, plumber and auto mechanic. However, Mexican immigrants are crowding Americans out of the construction trades and may soon dominate other trades as well.

Is this Counter-Punch or Stormfront?


Opportunity for native born Americans is collapsing. The loss of opportunity is showing up in declining median household income and rising poverty rate. On September 1, Edwin Rubenstein reported (vdare.com) that according to the Census Bureau's August 30 report, "median household income declined for an unprecedented fifth straight year in 2004." The main reason for declining household income, says the Economic Policy Institute, is "ongoing weakness in the job market."

I agree.

We need to fix government economic policy and make the economy vibrant again.

I have plenty of ideas on how to go about that, does this guy?

I know what he'll do: Erect tarrifs, increase taxes, start inflating the currency again.

And we know where we'll end up: Stagflation.

Keynesianism/protectionism is dead.

Move on.


HIgher paying jobs are being lost to outsourcing and to work visas. Lower paying jobs are being lost to Mexicans. With real income falling for five years (despite an economic recovery), the US poverty rate has climbed from 11.3% in 2000 to 12.7% in 2004, adding 5.4 million more persons to the poverty roll.

And overall, world income has risen BECAUSE of the U.S. economy.

Even IF we did as this loon said, we would still be getting poorer. That's the fault of government economic policy, but the ENTIRE WORLD would be vastly poorer because of it.

IS that what he wants?


Yet, nothink free trade economists and libertarians--like LBJ who promised us light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam and Bush who promises light at the end of the tunnel in Iraq--still promise that outsourcing and H-1B visas mean increased wealth for Americans.

They do, as long as the rest of government policy isn't fucking Americans and robbing them.

But it is.

It's like saying taking steroids will make you stronger. It's accepted that this is true. But say you start taking the steriods to improve your strength, but at the same time leftists stop giving you food (Equivilent to how they starve the economy with their policies). Would it be fair of those same leftists to say "Look, steroids don't make you stronger, this guy's getting weaker and he's on steroids"?

That's what's happening.

We have policies in effect that WOULD make Americans richer if they were allowed to work.



Economic science no longer exists in America. Its place has been taken by emotional commitments to dogmas. Americans and their hopes are daily paying the price for this great failure of economic thinking.

This coming from a protectionist Keynesian?

:D



The August payroll jobs report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics repeats the consistent pattern of 21st century America--no net job creation in high productivity sectors. The only jobs created are in nontradable lower paid domestic services.


And of course this ISN'T affected by America's regulations, taxation rate or other governmental influenced factors!

:rolleyes:



Of the 154,000 private nonfarm jobs created in August, 25,000 are in construction and are filled primarily by legal and illegal Mexican immigrants; 20,000 are in wholesale and retail trade; 16,000 in administrative and waste services; 43,000 in education and health services; 34,000 in leisure and hospitality (primarily waitresses and bartenders). Manufacturing lost another 14,000 jobs.

Brand name companies that once were symbols of US manufacturing are today assemblers of foreign made parts. An industry of assemblers has no need for engineers or scientists. The dismantling of the US economy cannot be corrected by education and job retraining.

That's exactly what it can, and will, be corrected by.


The US is on its way to becoming a third world country.
:lol:



It is detrimental to the future of freedom that at this time, when our civil liberties are under attack by the Bush administration and diminishing economic opportunity is breathing new life into class war, libertarians and market economists are demonstrating more commitment to ideology than to the welfare of fellow citizens. By associating freedom and market solutions with policies that are eroding Americans' prospects, freedom's defenders are unwittingly stabbing freedom in the back.

Blather, blather, blather.

*PRC*Kensei
7th September 2005, 14:36
you must have a lot of time to read and comment all of this :P

Publius
7th September 2005, 23:58
you must have a lot of time to read and comment all of this :P

I can do it rather quickly.

I've hard the arguments before so responding to them isn't a challenge at all.

Latifa
10th September 2005, 06:32
I think the article is a racist piece of shit.

Publius
10th September 2005, 13:30
I think the article is a racist piece of shit.

Glad I'm not the only one that felt that way.