the EU

[redstarshining]

First of all, a little story.

Today I went to a stationary shop to buy some pencils. Of course there were hundreds of different brands. So I took a box of pencils from the shelve and looked at the label. It read "EUROPEAN pencils". Underneath there was another label which read "made in China".
I thought 'hmmm... what exactly makes them EUROPEAN ? Nevermind...'. After I went to the cashier, and paid my two Euros and fifty Euro-cents, I noticed a huge european flag hanging on the front door of the shop. On my way home I walked through the central railway station of my hometown, accompanied by an awful christmas choir that managed to chant the european hymn in a volume never heard before. I started running, but when I got home I did NOT wake up from a bad dream, instead I stood in front of the door to my appartment while blue flags and yellow stars were dancing around in my head.

Seriously, did you notice the increase in european 'nationalism' recently? If you want to control the masses, you have to provide them with a feeling of unity and national identity, something they will not question, something they will blindly believe in. After 50 years of embarrassment for a shameful history the ruling class in Germany and elsewhere has smelled it's opportunity. Flag-waving is 'in' again. After feeling proud to be prussian, after feeling proud to be 'aryan', after feeling proud to be german, they now intent to create a new 'european pride'. If you live in the EU you can turn on your televiosion at any time of the day, the first word it will puke out is EUROPE.

What do you think, how will this new consciousness affect our chances of success? What do you think about the lack of democracy in the european parliament? Can you really educate people about internationalism and class-consciousness when most of Europe only talks about creating an 'antipole' to the US?

[oki]

I live in holland,and I don't get bombarded by flags and hyms at all actually.
I don't think that europe will ever become like the US.the countrys will never give up their individual power,definetly not their armys(eventhough we might have a euro army soon)and rulings from brussles are allways questioned a lot.the europ. parlement doesn't mean a whole lot,the big decisions are allways taken on eurotops by the leaders of the countrys and that is actually allmost anarchistic decision making.(well on a bigger level..)one small country can frustrate these tops completely by not agreeing with the rest.

[Iris]

I think that Europe might in fact end up being one big "country", but it's gonna take time. The europian political leaders seem to be aimimg at Europe becoming an antipole to the US, I mean look at the Euro army, or even at the euros in which we're all paying in. They're trying to pull off the transaction smoothly. But that is still quite far in the future, one thing that would speed things up would be if the US became a threat to Europe instead of an "ally"
If that happens, then we'll have the same situation as we had ten or so years ago with the USSR. Even if it isn't Europe an antipole will definetely form sooner or later, it's just the way things go. no one can monopolize power for too long. Histore repeats itself.
However, the forming of another global power will only make things worse for the underdeveloped country's, which will go on making cheap products for the "over"developed ones, until things get unbearable and power changes hands again.

[Edelweiss]

I think a "European nationalism" is far less dangerous than a German (or English, French etc) nationalism because it's not "völkisch" at all (is there an English word for that?), it's even pretty progressive in a way, when you remember all the inner-European wars that happened during the last centuries. To peacefully unite different ethnic groups in one nation with same rights for all (like Yugoslavia under Tito), is the first step to the total abolsihment of the nation.
Neverthelsess I don't support the EU in it's current form, because it's of course a center of capitalism.

[deimos]

I don't support the EU in its current form, but I support the Paneuropean idea.I support the "European Superstate" because I think that this government in Brussels would be better than our governments in France, Italy(I hate Berlusconi) and Austria(it looks like I'm living in a country full of facistic idiots)

[Pavan Sohal]

Europe doesn't really need to become a single country. It just needs to become close enough so that it can challenge the U.S. on foreign policy and economics (usually one and the same).

Also, I wish Germans would stop using the name "Aryan" and use "Nordic" instead. It would be like a Sioux native calling himself an Aztec because they share SOME bloodlines, just for the sake of being able to say that they are affiliated with one of the world's great ancient civilizations. The europeans were in caves while the Aryans were creating the Veda and civilization.

[Jaha]

wouldnt it be great to have european superstate? and then maybe asia could unite and the U$ could takeover all of the americas and then we got something like 1984 by george orwells. the superstates battle each other to have a reason to tax thee civilians and keep them poor.

just peachy. i dont want that.

if people are going to make superstates, they must be communistic or else hell will unleash itself on the world.

europe can unite, i like that idea. but to centralize all that power is a mistake.

[Annelie]

I am German and I agree that here in Europe the nationalism starts gowing, but I think it's a good thing. Why shouldn't? I mean the French have been pround of there country all the time, but we Germans, we still feel sorry for the Second WW. I mean you can't forget about it, but it's time to let go a little. We can't give money to all jews and other nations, just because we are forced to feel sorry. I mean it's 55 years ago and it's History. There were so many wars in this world, do other country constantly care about it? No ...

So my opinion is, it's good that all Europe gets togehter (slowly, I know it will take some time), but than we might depent lee on the US ...

[Edelweiss]

I mean you can't forget about it, but it's time to let go a little. We can't give money to all jews and other nations, just because we are forced to feel sorry. I mean it's 55 years ago and it's History. There were so many wars in this world, do other country constantly care about it? No ...


Stop talking bullshit like that, please. I hear it too often from all the morons here, and I'm sick of it. Now I even have to hear it at che-lives, from somebody who is apparently leftist. But you are not, you are just an little idiot.
First , what happened during WW2 in Germany was not a "usual war", as you see it. What happened there in the KZ's was the most terrible crime of human history, and there is no money in the world which can ever compensate that. And I feel deeply ashamed, that many victims of the Nazi's still didn't got a penny from the German government and the corporations who profounded from forced labour.

Annelie halt's Maul!
Deutschland halt's Maul!

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

There is a new law in the US to respond at the coming of a new international court. It says that if their soldiers are get prisoned they can attack the country who has the prisoner. Well the court stands in The Hague, that means that The Netherlands will be a threat to America.

What has this to do with the topic. This: In WW2 Nazi-Germany fought against AMERICA. The ppl who had commited warcrimes got punished,NOT, only if they were German.

The looser of a war always gets punished and pays the price of the war. Do you think that Americans didnt commit war crimes. There are numerous cases in wich American troops kill defenseless germans, what about the American camps inwich they put all American-Japan citizens after Pearl Harbor nomatter what there political view was. I know a case inwich an American campcommandant who was in charge of 50000 German POW's on porpuse gave the POW's lesser food than there was avaible and they needed. With goal to lett them starve to death.

This shows that a weaker country pays the price of a war. Do you think that those Americans got punished?

History always repeats it self but with small changes. So why do u think that the American Govern has this new law?

[Edelweiss]

CCCP, I'll just answer with another German leftist slogan to that:
Deutsche Täter sind keine Opfer!
means: German perpetrators are no victims!

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I am not saying that the Nazi's did good things but saying that the US doesnt act cause of "injustice" orso.

The victims in my previous story are the innoncent german civilians who met a angry American soldier, the Japanese who believed in the US, the German girls who got raped by Soviet soldiers etc etc.

[redstarshining]

sorry for the late response to this threat, I had a lot of work to do, and had to write some exams ( latin... )

If it helps to fight nationalism, then I'm in favor of the paneuropean idea too. However if good old nationalism is just going to be replaced with a new kind of 'euro-centrism' ( as I can see is currently happening ), I am still opposed to the EU, even if it wansn't quite as capitalist as the USA. I'm not proud to be european, I'm just yet another citizen of planet earth.
But with my 'lack of national pride' I'm beginning to feel like an outsider. Nationalism can be a strong ally to achieve ones political goals, but a dangerous ally.

Malte: I see your point, but what about the future of our movement in a united europe? KVEL/NGL ( the leftmost fraction in the european parliament ) has only 42 of 626 seats. Not to mention that the united european left is mostly bourgeoise parties. The bigger the terretory , the smaller the influence of the small parties. And with Berlusconi, our special friend Haider, the danish administration, and all the conservative governments all over europe, a united europe does not sound very rewarding to me.

I'll stop ranting about the inevitable now. But the question of a united europe gets interesting when I think about the [ Osterweiterung = ? ] expansion of the EU. How will it effect Poland, for example, the next country to be annexed? I think it might have an absolutely devastating effect on the polish economy.
We must not forget why the EU is expanding. A market economy ALWAYS has to constantly expand and annex new markets at the cost of the people. Either by war ( see WWII ) or by globalization, otherwise it would perish in no time.
But what if the people of the new ( potential ) member states realize how they are being tricked? I hope, and I do believe that many will!


Jaha: this is exactly what is worrying me, I think the least thing this world needs is another empire sucking the blood of the poor nations ( and of it's own working class of course, the third world is not only in india, south africa etc. ). And if George W. Bush and the whole conservative ruling class in the US won't choke on the next Brezel, then the panamerican free trade zone is likely to come. But I know that Latin America will fight back!



Pavan Sohal: I was referring to what happened 50 years ago here in Germany, today hopefuly most people understand that they are not 'the aryan master race ' or of 'pure aryan descent' ( except of a few boneheads ).


Hasta la victoria siempre!


EDIT: corrected some spelling errors, added a sentence

(Edited by redstarshining at 9:32 pm on Dec. 14, 2002)

[canikickit]

I'm kind of in two minds about the EU. In some ways, I think it is good, it has social leanings, the likes of Germany, France and the UK provide monatary aid to cheap bastards like us (Ireland). I also think, seeing as how we live in such a disgusting capitalist dominated world, it is better having one which is dominated by two powers, rather than one. Especially if the EU sticks to its ideals, and the small nations retain their power.

However, the way the EU appears to be headed, it's going to end up just the same as the US, and I would hate that.

I see no threat from any sort of European nationalism, most people retain their national identity. I very much agree with Malte's point:


To peacefully unite different ethnic groups in one nation with same rights for all (like Yugoslavia under Tito), is the first step to the total abolsihment of the nation.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Nicely spoken Redstar thing.:wink:



It seems to me that the world is forming blocks now. The America block, the European block, wealthy Arabian states and some other blocks, nations that don't belong to one of these blocks can't compete with them due to a lack of money and influence.

When there were 2 superpowers, 1superpower couldn't do a bad thing without getting comment wich would follow with consequences.

You see know (par example Kyoto protocol) that the European nations gave comment to the US about it's refusal to the protocol, but could't take actions. They couldn't take actions because if they would take a step, they could expect the US taking countersteps. And because the European nations can't take as much damage from those steps as the US, it would be a lost war before it even started.

To compete the Europeans should unite themselfs, but it seems more than possible that the EU becomes the "badcountry" someday because of this unification and that it obiouses it's power and money just like the US does today.

The EU is starting to realize that will no longer count on the world stage of power and politics if they don't take action now. There even plans to have a joint army, intelligence services and a few other things.


So should the European nations unite to form a strong block against the US, wich could stop the US from ruling this whole world and turning us into slaves.

But could this also lead to an even stronger feeling of nationalism, that Europe becomes the new "US", and that if they become the new and only world power that will they will abuse their power to rule the world.

Edit: Some spelling and sentence corrections.

(Edited by CCCP at 11:26 pm on Dec. 14, 2002)