Who will take over after Fidel?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

By law, who is going to take over? The wise-president?

[JC1]

Roul Castro. Asfter Roul Dies, the Issue will be decied by A Party Congress and then referendum. Dont take my word for it, I havent independtly verified this.

[slim]

Perhaps Roul will "give up" the presidency in favour of another candidate who has US backing behind the scenes and a few bribes in his favour.

In this world of such politics, it is possible.

[STI]

Moved to Politics

[Commandante_Ant]

I doubt Raul would give up the presidency for an american backed president. Raul was a bit mad when it was the revolutions early days, making crazy decisions in battle etc.

This is a question i've wondered for a while. Could it go to Fidel's family? Maybe his son?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Raul was a bit mad when it was the revolutions early days, making crazy decisions in battle etc.

Mad, as in foolish? Do you have any examples?




This is a question i've wondered for a while. Could it go to Fidel's family? Maybe his son?

Why would you assume it would go through the blood line? There are elections in Cuba.



Does anyone know for sure who is going to take over, according to the law?

[Commandante_Ant]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 01:10 PM

Raul was a bit mad when it was the revolutions early days, making crazy decisions in battle etc.

Mad, as in foolish? Do you have any examples?




This is a question i've wondered for a while. Could it go to Fidel's family? Maybe his son?

Why would you assume it would go through the blood line? There are elections in Cuba.



Does anyone know for sure who is going to take over, according to the law?
I cannot remember in detail but when reading the Che guevara book by Jon Lee Anderson, i can vaguely remember reading paragraphs on rauls behaviour. He seemed intent on destroying the army i think....i dont think he believed in prisoner, he was an ardent supporter of revolutionary executions. I cant be sure but i thought this was the case. And yes mad as in foolish.


I didnt assume....i was asking the question!!!!

[Des]

raul good go first... i think his health is worse...

[bolshevik butcher]

Sorry but sonce when was cuba monarchy. Shouldnt the next leader be elected. Isnt the leader appointed by the parliment?

[Des]

nah its law that raul will take over when fidel dies...

[Hiero]

When i first learnt that it went to Raul i thought this was rather wierd and some what dynasty like.

In any country when a leader dies, there is always one person who leadership goes to. Normally after a period of time that person steps down and elections begin.

So im not sure, but leadership may only go to Raul for a set limit of time, then a new leader will be elected. This is what i am assuming though.

[Des]

the cubans wont be happy.. they dont like raul from what ive read...

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 01:29 AM
the cubans wont be happy.. they dont like raul from what ive read...
What have you read?

If my assumptions are true and what you say is true, it doesn't matter if the Cubans like Raul or not, since he will not serve long.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

According to the Cuban constitution Raul would replace Fidel if he died in office (because of his position in the government, no his last name). After he finishes out the [5 year] term, the National Assembly will elect a new president of the council of state, just like it does every 5 years.

The National Assembly is elected by the Provincial levels of People's Power, which are directly elected by the people of Cuba.

The Truth About Cuba (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5a.html) & Let's Talk About Cuban Democracy (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5b.html)

[bolshevik butcher]

Ok, i still dont like the way cuban democracy is run. Don't you feel tha it should be more direct?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Read those articles, it's the most democratic nation in the world.

You have to remember that democracy is not some abstract system, seperate from class society.

When you speak of democracy, you have to define democracy for who, and over what?

[bolshevik butcher]

No i mean my point is that why isnt the elader directly elected? And also, why arent the means of productions run by workers councils.

All power to the soviets.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The article explains why not.

The means of production are controlled by the workers, through their unions, local levels of people's power, the mass organizations like the Federation of Cuban Women, their party, and their government.

[bolshevik butcher]

I still feel direct workers control is preferable, but aht's not to say that i dont stand in solidarity with cuba.

[donnie_middel1]

I think that cuba and the rest of the world should follow North Korea's way as theya re so strong and, if it was not for sanctions would not be starving, and the same with Stalin's USSR it was brilliant

[bolshevik butcher]

Yes, i agree we should all be run by an ironfist and given no freedoms. In all honesty people on nkorea could be starving.

[donnie_middel1]

I Would give anything to live in stalins era or in north korea, as thier leaders are so strong and u have a sense of security

[bolshevik butcher]

Freedom over security. If security is not being able to speak out agianst the government then fuck secuity.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Fidel is putting 5 golden tickets behind the labels of bottles of rum.
But these bottles shall only be sold in Cuba.

The people who find these tickets must give them to a child.

Fidel after he gets 5 children, will run a tour of Cuba.

If the children run into mishaps along the tour, they are disqualified.

The remaining child gets to run Cuba after Fidel dies.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 09:54 PM
I Would give anything to live in stalins era or in north korea, as thier leaders are so strong and u have a sense of security
Well, if you did live in such conditions and you would give anything to, you coincidentally would give your own life!

[bolshevik butcher]

HAHA, i like that charlie and the choclate factory thing. Yeh, we need mroe elemtns of workers control in cuba, i am sure oyu'd agree being a fellow council communist.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 2 2005, 10:33 PM
HAHA, i like that charlie and the choclate factory thing. Yeh, we need mroe elemtns of workers control in cuba, i am sure oyu'd agree being a fellow council communist.
Well, in some ways I like Fidel. But, yes more workers elements need to be put in control, it wouldn't hurt anything.

Fidel isn't a demon, hes just an old man with old ideas.

[Entrails Konfetti]

There are a few things that must be understood.

There are always smart-apples on the working floor in shops who can lead (and not neccessarily act like authorities) and set up councils.

Which is a good idea,which I advocate.

But, another thing which must be considered is what does government do ?
One of the many things it does is decide who gets what and how.

In such a country as Cuba (which Marx didn't forsee a revolution occuring here), supplies are limited.And you must understand alot of people in general are self-absorbed. Alot aren't interested in the world unless it relates to them directly. Most people I know like to eat,fuck and gossip--thats it!

The danger here is that alot of people could ask for the sky and not be aware of whats available. And then people panic and chaos breaks out.

Cuba needs Castro.

But, Castro needs to figure out how to make people independant.

[bolshevik butcher]

Would rhe cuban government tolerate thse councils though? I think they should be set up.Sure mistaeks might be ade but people learn best theough expirience. Eventually it would be a mutch ebtter syste of rule.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I've yet to seen anything that shows the working class in Cuba doesn't control the means of production. Any one you care to point something out?

[bolshevik butcher]

I am not saiyng they dont do it inderctly But snt the government ultimatley in control. it's not like they are electing directly, like each inidicual factory elects its 'bosses' etc.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The government of Cuba is the people.

There is one party, the Cuban Communist Party. How do you become a member? You must be elected a model worker by your fellow workers.

Everything is directed by People's Power. The Cuban people elect their representatives at all levels of Peoples Power (city, province, and national).. you don't have to be a party member to be elected, up to half of those elected aren't. The National Assembly then in turn elects the President of the Council of state.

As Ricardo Alarcon, president of Cuba's parliament, pointed out in the article Let's Talk About Cuban Democracy (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5b.html), "In some countries, those are very indirect elections which are not questioned. Generally, senates are elected like that. And in some countries, senators are appointed and even hereditary."

All major laws and bills are brought into the mass organizations for debate, discussion, and modification by the general public. What other country does that?

All these things are pointed out in the articles I've posted links to.

[Amusing Scrotum]

I Would give anything to live in stalins era or in north korea, as thier leaders are so strong and u have a sense of security

Well there was me thinking Communism was a system under which no one ruled over the masses without any kind of acountibility.
Hey I must of been so wrong. Communism is obviously a system where thousands starve and the leader lives in a palace.
I've been so wrong.
Though, I guess, if I was living in Stalin's Russia, you would not have to listen to silly opinions like mine. As I would be starving and tired in a nice little Goulag by the sea.
I just hope that when the Revolution comes, you're in charge. As you have all the traits to make a Great, with a capital G, Leader.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 3 2005, 10:40 PM
I am not saiyng they dont do it inderctly But snt the government ultimatley in control. it's not like they are electing directly, like each inidicual factory elects its 'bosses' etc.
What direct democracy do you talk of? You are just talking rhetoric.

Direct democracy still needs to be organised through working bodies. The idea of direct democracy is to get decision as close as possible to the decisions of the people, so you form unions and other grass roots groups.

Democracy must work with production, thats why you can't have every day all the workers sit around and discuss their work environment and production prices and what not. So the idea is to have working bodies that are familiar with the working people. These representives can then negotiate realistic quotas, prices and working conditions. In the centralised system the government must come to a realistic deal with the working representives so the whole system works in cooperation.

In Cuba they have similar things like this, and also outside the work place, in communities they have some grass roots body called something like "Gaurd of Revolution" or something like that. Basically they work in the same way, as a group of elected representives that are familiar with the people and negotiate with the government needs of the community.

I think you don't know what you are talking about. You seem to be just talking rhetoric about direct democracy. If you mean direct democracy where the working bodies can ignore the central leadership, the system will fall apart as there will be no government that puts needs and demands in perspective with all work places and environment. Groups will start to compete for resources and prices.

After Khrushchev reformed the Soviet union, he made this attempt to give more direct democracy to work places. The work places did not have to consulate the central leadership over prices and quota's. So the work place leaderships began competing with the raw industries, and bureaucracy was transferred from the central government to the enterprises.

Anyway i have dribbled on, next time just be more detailed about what you want and why you dislike the current system, rather just saying the monotonous rehtoric of "direct democracy" "peoples control" blah blah. It means nothing unless you actually have ideas of what the terms mean, and the reality of the terms.

[Led Zeppelin]

Cuba will probably end up a dynasty like north-Korea, or it will become openly capitalist like Vietnam, China, Russia etc.

Well, actually Cuba is already openly capitalist. :rolleyes:

I guess a dynasty capitalist state until a bourgeois democratic revolution takes place.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I think that cuba and the rest of the world should follow North Korea's way as theya re so strong and, if it was not for sanctions would not be starving, and the same with Stalin's USSR it was brilliant

Just prior to the invasion of Russia, Stalin's family and closest advisors were still urging for a calvary war, despite the sucesses of Blitzkrieg in the West. Stalin then proceeded to lock up the man who was recommending that tanks and artillery be invested in.

During World War II, Soviet dogs were trained to detonate themselves against enemy tanks. The problem was that they trained the dogs with Soviettanks (T-34?), so when they were let out in the field, the dogs targeted Soviet tanks, instead of German!


North Korea are not "so strong". They have deep economic problems, and to sustain a war, you need a strong economy, something North Korea does not have. If you only care about military power, you're not a Marxist. Marxism and socialism is not about "making nations so strong".



Well, actually Cuba is already openly capitalist. rolleyes.gif

Openly? Please explain. The petit-bourgeois exist, but hiring labor is illegal.

[Led Zeppelin]

Just prior to the invasion of Russia, Stalin's family and closest advisors were still urging for a calvary war, despite the sucesses of Blitzkrieg in the West. Stalin then proceeded to lock up the man who was recommending that tanks and artillery be invested in.

:lol: What are you talking about? The USSR invested massively in tanks and artillery during the first and second 5 year plans, 10 years before the war. The USSR used tanks en masse during the Finnish war, can you stop making up nonsense and presenting them as fact.

And Stalin's family? WTF?


During World War II, Soviet dogs were trained to detonate themselves against enemy tanks. The problem was that they trained the dogs with Soviettanks (T-34?), so when they were let out in the field, the dogs targeted Soviet tanks, instead of German!


:lol: WTF? I can't believe you just tried to make the USSR during WW2 look like a pathetic "third world" country. France gave up, Britain got screwed, the USSR fought and won.


Marxism and socialism is not about "making nations so strong".

Socialism is superior to capitalism, socialist USSR proved this by defeating the worlds most powerful capitalist state, i.e., Nazi Germany.


Openly? Please explain. The petit-bourgeois exist, but hiring labor is illegal.

Foreign capitalist investment, major capitalist tourist industry. I don't support any nation as socialist when they have even the slightest bit of capitalism, I would never call the USSR during the NEP socialist.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I read those links.

Hmm, so democracy in Cuba means an inverted primary/caucus election:
instead of primaries the people themselves nominate regular people,these regulars then put in a resume and then are put on the ballot.The local governments then choose the national government. I don't see why the people themselves can't vote for the national government.

Hiero:

Yeah, the unions should have to consult a body of economists on pricing,wages and whatnot. I don't see it necessary for the unions to elect this body, their just unbiased economists and nothing more.

[Lord Testicles]

acctually ML that dog thing is true i googled it and came up with this


In WW2, Russians fed dogs under tanks, then released them in battle with anti-tank explosives having an antenna-like trigger on their backs.Dogs ran under wrong ones, German tanks didn't smell like Russian tanks. Most Russian tanks were diesel, most German ones weren't.German high command counters by spreading rabies rumors, encouraging soldiers to shoot every dog they see.

and heres the only pic i could find http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/mattoigta-World-War-2/afw.jpg

[Entrails Konfetti]

I hope Stalin prevented little children from playing with these dogs.

Why couldn't they use cats, no one gives a shit about self-absorbed cats. Fucking blow up muffy,mehhh who cares. Little bastard pissed in my boots.

America used bats in WWII against Japan to do the same thing. Renfield probably got killed. "MASTER MASTER...OH SHIT!" BOOOM!!!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Well, actually Cuba is already openly capitalist. rolleyes.gif

Please identify the capitalist class in Cuba.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Socialism is superior to capitalism, socialist USSR proved this by defeating the worlds most powerful capitalist state, i.e., Nazi Germany.

So if Cuba declared war on the Vatican, and Cuba won, that would prove Cuba's system is more powerful than capitalism?

[Led Zeppelin]

Please identify the capitalist class in Cuba.

The Castro clique and the foreign investors.


So if Cuba declared war on the Vatican, and Cuba won, that would prove Cuba's system is more powerful than capitalism?

No, Cuba and the USSR can't be compared, they are completely different not only in size and economic/military strength but also in historical context.

Cuba can't win a war against an imperialist nation, not only because of it's size, but also because of it's weak economy and military, the USSR on the other hand could win a war against imperialist powers, and did win the war against the most powerful of them.

But this discussion isn't really important, Cuba doesn't have a socialist economy so I don't support it, maybe when they overturn the profit motive as the regulator of production and kick out the foreign investors I will.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

pathetic "third world" country.

Is this how far your sympathy towards "third world" countries go?

[viva le revolution]

Raul Castro has my support as a successor to Fidel.

[Led Zeppelin]

Is this how far your sympathy towards "third world" countries go?

No, I said you tried to make it look like a pathetic "third world" country.

That does not mean I find "third world" countries pathetic, well, actually I do, I feel sorry for them, but they are the main force behind the upcoming revolution.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I hope this "upcoming revolution" fits into your scewed-sectarian vision of what socialism looks like so they can garner your support!

[Zapata]

isnt it a bad idea to have a guy as old as raul take over?

[Commandante_Ant]

I would say yes it is a bad thing....if he was to come into power, he would only have 5 years at most i would say.

In my opinion, when Fidel passes away, they are better to find someone with the same ideals and passion but around the 40 yr old mark. Someone young enough that should be around for a couple of decades.

[left-nut]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 03:51 PM
This is a question i've wondered for a while. Could it go to Fidel's family? Maybe his son?


Fidel's entire family is apolitical (with the exception of his brother Raúl).

[left-nut]

Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 6 2005, 02:30 PM

Please identify the capitalist class in Cuba.

The Castro clique and the foreign investors.





Cuba's NEP climaxed around 2002 or 2003. The number of foreign companies has halved from that time.

[Zapata]

so are there any other quality possibilities to take over after Fidel and Raul are gone? the problem is that a weak leader would be an invitation for the american government to intervene, if not militarily (iraq is dragging on).

[kurt]

How about *gasp*, the working class? wait, that's silly, my bad.