The Proletariat

[workersunity]

Are those who work in the service section considered a proletariat, or does a proletariat have to create surplus labor in a product, and thus create profit in that product

[Commandante_Ant]

I could be wrong but i always thought of the proletariat as the working masses, the workers who work in the public sector who receive little or no recognition of the work.

[Led Zeppelin]

"The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labour power and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whose life and death,whose sole existence depends on the demand for labour..."

So to answer your question; yes.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:01 AM
Are those who work in the service section considered a proletariat, or does a proletariat have to create surplus labor in a product, and thus create profit in that product
Workers in the service sector contribute to the generation and accumulation of surplus value, just as does a worker in the transportation sector. Without them, the capitalists would not be able to extract surplus value from its consumable commodities.

Miles

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

A product on the shelf ain't worth shit to our cappie masters if I ain't there to scan it. :D

*gag*

[Amusing Scrotum]

"The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labour power and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whose life and death,whose sole existence depends on the demand for labour..."

Under this classification, "does not draw profit from any kind of capital", wouldn't this mean that owning your own home, technically, removes you from the section labeled "Proleteriat". Just a thought.

[Led Zeppelin]

wouldn't this mean that owning your own home, technically, removes you from the section labeled "Proleteriat". Just a thought.


No, only if it's your job to buy and sell homes for profit.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 09:11 AM

"The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labour power and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whose life and death,whose sole existence depends on the demand for labour..."

Under this classification, "does not draw profit from any kind of capital", wouldn't this mean that owning your own home, technically, removes you from the section labeled "Proleteriat". Just a thought.
No. If you own a home and live in it, it has no immediate exchange value, only use value -- much like your clothes, personal transportation, etc.

Miles

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 01:11 PM

"The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labour power and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whose life and death,whose sole existence depends on the demand for labour..."

Under this classification, "does not draw profit from any kind of capital", wouldn't this mean that owning your own home, technically, removes you from the section labeled "Proleteriat". Just a thought.
It refers specifically to productive capital.
That is, I can't generate surplus value to live off of just by virtue of owning a house.

[Amusing Scrotum]

No, only if it's your job to buy and sell homes for profit.


No. If you own a home and live in it, it has no immediate exchange value, only use value -- much like your clothes, personal transportation, etc.


It refers specifically to productive capital.
That is, I can't generate surplus value to live off of just by virtue of owning a house.

But what if you sold your home and made a profit?

[Led Zeppelin]

But what if you sold your home and made a profit?

If that is your job then you are drawing profit from a kind of capital, i.e., you are not proletariat.

[TalMarsh]

You could still draw a profit from selling your house, however meager it is.

[Amusing Scrotum]

If that is your job then you are drawing profit from a kind of capital, i.e., you are not proletariat.

Sorry, I meant drawing profit from your own personal property, in which you live.

[Led Zeppelin]

Sorry, I meant drawing profit from your own personal property, in which you live.

You can only draw profit from it when you sell it.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 09:55 AM
But what if you sold your home and made a profit?
If you are selling your home in order to buy/rent and live in another one, you're not generating capital. You're "producing" a commodity to accumulate money to purchase another commodity -- C-M-C'. This synopsis of the first volume of Capital, written by Engels, should help you better understand.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...68-syn/ch01.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/1868-syn/ch01.htm)

Miles

[Amusing Scrotum]

Cheers.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labour power

What about a person living on social security?

[Led Zeppelin]

What about a person living on social security?

Engels wrote that before "social security" existed, I would classify them as proletariat.

[STI]

A person like that wouldn't fall under the strict definition of "proletariat", but they're definately "working class". Unemployed peoples' interests are irremovably tied to those of the working class. In times, for example, of high working class activity, things are usually much better for unemployed people. In times of passivity, they come under fierce attack.

[workersunity]

thanks, i was debating a maoist last night, and in terms of the service proletariat, and on things such as humanism etc.. he was kinda wack

[STI]

Ya see, Maoism was developed in a third-world peasant society and was intended to suit the needs of such a society, so it makes sense that it wouldn't be very applicable to us here in the first world.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Suppose one sells one's house - how likely is one to actually make enough profit to stop working?
I mean, I don't know about you, but I'd probably spend the money finding other shelter - and the next day I'd be back at to my cashier job, making money to buy groceries and pay the bills.
Perhaps I could make enough to live if I bought houses, personally improved them, then sold them off at a higher price - but then I'd be enriched by my own labour, not the labour-power of others, making me petit-bourgeois (though it's a gamble, and I'm as likely to fail miserably).

STI - Maoism is not just relevent to the third-world. It raises important questions about the relationships of imperialist and (neo-)colonized nations, and so on. Any Maoist will tell you - I'm not a Maoist - but don't dismiss Mao so readily.

[workersunity]

but hes right that it isnt applicable here in America, the only points to take from Maoist thought would be the ideas of Guerilla warfare, or better yet just read sun tzu