the hurricane

[Ele'ill]

This post reguards many of the leftist organizations that tend to show up at demonstrations or have their own political presence on the internet. With the latest natural occurance being the hurricane and seeing redcross and FEMA doing their best to make the situation look under control wouldn't it be logical for organizations based on community and proletarian power to assist or reach out themselves to help communities in conflict? I understand the cities affected are fairly inaccessible however there is still much to be fixed and rebuilt. I never see blackbloc or other entities helping out at all although I could be wrong and i'm just not looking hard enough.

[Organic Revolution]

the black bloc is not an organization, but a tactic.

[quincunx5]

wouldn't it be logical for organizations based on community and proletarian power to assist or reach out themselves to help communities in conflict?


People within the community help each other, if that suits their own needs best.

[Ele'ill]

Black bloc is a tactic ok but what about the labeling of 'black bloc philadelphia, black bloc
dc area' and so on? The point still stands. None of these groups that act for the people ever actually do any good. This is a bold statement however I think it stands fairly true. If the anarchist black cross network sent out an alert to 'mobilize' and help those affected it would be great.


People within the community help each other, if that suits their own needs best.

So if I was in this community and I saw a woman fall down a flight of stairs, but I was late for work my best needs would be to keep on walking. Or do you mean if the community needs something they help eachother if it's in their best needs? :huh:

If this is the case then why so much global worker solidarity? How does helping a labor group in korea help a labor group in america? (real question)

I thought this was a good question. :(
Or rather a good idea.

[Organic Revolution]

from what i have heard, there are groups in my area heading down there. but the military isnt letting people near.

[quincunx5]

So if I was in this community and I saw a woman fall down a flight of stairs, but I was late for work my best needs would be to keep on walking.


If that is what you decide, then yes.



Or do you mean if the community needs something they help each other if it's in their best needs?


Yes.



If this is the case then why so much global worker solidarity? How does helping a labor group in korea help a labor group in america? (real question)


What are you talking about?

[Ele'ill]

I dont' know. But why would these organizations not help a community in conflict?

[quincunx5]

Because it must not in be in their best interest to do so.

[Organic Revolution]

did you not just read my post?

[Ele'ill]

It does take an effort to lend a helping hand but me not stopping at traffic lights on the way to work is in my best interest if i'm late because i'll get fired and who cares if I side swipe a mini van carrying kids or run a school bus off the road I'M LATE FOR WORK AND ME IS ALL THAT MATTERS. Which is the truth. They are not in my best interest, me is. The idea of community is to help others and lean on others for support.

and the confusion with the posts I guess when they were backing up earlier the posts got delayed or reversed or something I think one of mine got deleted so just ignore it if it makes no sense as to what i'm replying to. Earlier. Now i'm replying to the last post by that guy that posted last up above.

[novemba]

I wonder what the real reason is that theyre not letting people in....

[quincunx5]

It does take an effort to lend a helping hand but me not stopping at traffic lights on the way to work is in my best interest if i'm late because i'll get fired and who cares if I side swipe a mini van carrying kids or run a school bus off the road I'M LATE FOR WORK AND ME IS ALL THAT MATTERS. Which is the truth.


You are all that matters, but you can't violate other people's freedom while exercizing yours. If I failed to mention it, it's because it's common sense.



I wonder what the real reason is that theyre not letting people in....


It's probably for a stupid reason like not wanting people to endanger themselves.
I think it's wrong. You should not use physical force to prevent people from taking risks.

[Ele'ill]

You are all that matters, but you can't violate other people's freedom while exercizing yours. If I failed to mention it, it's because it's common sense.

But the 'best interest' to communism would be to kill everyone opposed to it. Atleast that's what i'm seeing on the other thread. Anyone that threatens the 'revolution'.

[Adam_Arachnid]

This is supposed to be a Global Revolution, so I agree with Mari3L on this one. Though there is nothing wrong with helping yourself and your community, it NEVER should hurt to do the same for others.

I think the reason they are not letting people in is because of all of the
disseases that are in the water from the carcasses (human or other animal), and I think the water is still rising some how. I think it's wrong for them to use physical force as well. People do have families still down there and if it were mine I would definetly be down there, physical force or not.

[hasilto]

the flooding of New Orleans was a conspiracy perpetrated by George Bush. Right?

[quincunx5]

But the 'best interest' to communism would be to kill everyone opposed to it.


Precisely why communism has no freedom.

[hasilto]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:51 AM

You are all that matters, but you can't violate other people's freedom while exercizing yours. If I failed to mention it, it's because it's common sense.

But the 'best interest' to communism would be to kill everyone opposed to it. Atleast that's what i'm seeing on the other thread. Anyone that threatens the 'revolution'.
there will be no revolution

these naive kids are just enamored by the thought of "the revolution"

once they get out of school and have to get jobs they'll change their tune.
at least most of them will

a few uber tards always slip through. :lol:

[Seeker]

There is no electricity, no gas, no food, no water. If you go there, you are stuck if you don't bring along a truckload of gasoline, and then you become a burden.

Also, there is only 1 way in or out, and I'm pretty sure they'd rather keep it clear to bring in convoys of supplys and take out busses of refugees.



A black bloc is not an organization. It is the label that you give to a group of anarchists at a protest who (among other things) are looking for a fight with the cops. These people may or may not conduct food drives and such as members of organizations when they are not participating in "a" black bloc (not "the").

[Adam_Arachnid]

Screw all negative NELLIES. Viva la Revolution.
Look at Venizuela.

[hasilto]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 06:17 AM
Screw all negative NELLIES. Viva la Revolution.
Look at Venizuela.
venezuela is a mess

[Seeker]

Only if you are a foreign investor.


The only way to help the flood victims is by boat.

If I had a boat, I would not go without a big gun. Packing heat was never a bad idea in New Orleans, but right now it is a lot more violent than usual. Food and water can't be transported without automatic weapons.

Most of the police have been told to stop looking for people stuck on rooftops so that they can try to stop the looting. Instead of saving lives, they raided Wal-Mart to save private property. Which does nothing to stop the people who randomly hijack trucks full of hospital supplies. "Culture of Life" indeed.




I found an interesting quote from BBC:


"Many people didn't have the financial means to get out," Alan LeBreton, a Biloxi resident told Reuters news agency.

"That's a crime and people are angry about it," he said.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4203302.stm)

[Adam_Arachnid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 06:35 AM

venezuela is a mess
How is it a mess? The people of Venezuela, or the majority of is happier than they have ever been. Doosh bag, ooooooohhhhh, !SNAP!

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 10:29 PM
This post reguards many of the leftist organizations that tend to show up at demonstrations or have their own political presence on the internet. With the latest natural occurance being the hurricane and seeing redcross and FEMA doing their best to make the situation look under control wouldn't it be logical for organizations based on community and proletarian power to assist or reach out themselves to help communities in conflict? I understand the cities affected are fairly inaccessible however there is still much to be fixed and rebuilt. I never see blackbloc or other entities helping out at all although I could be wrong and i'm just not looking hard enough.
Speaking for the League, yes, working people's political organizations should help with relief and rescue operations, but under their own structures -- i.e., not under the direction of the government.

If the League had a sufficient amount of members in the area, we would have not only brought needed food and supplies to the survivors, including expropriating such supplies from local establishments (much like individuals are doing now -- "looting"), we would also have aided in getting people out of the city before the hurricane. We would have went to the union representing the bus drivers and appealed to them to bring the buses down to the Ninth Ward area, which is where most of the poor and African American workers of the area live, most of whom do not have cars or access to cars, in order to get the people out of there and to safety (and I do not mean the Superdome). We would also help with debris clearing, traffic direction, sanitation, etc.

This is the communist response to a disaster like this, from our perspective.

Miles

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That should be the communist response in the main.

Our movement has taken some flack from other "leftist" groups for doing similiar things (for example: helping with housing constructing for the poor in the Dominican Republic).

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 08:57 AM
That should be the communist response in the main.

Our movement has taken some flack from other "leftist" groups for doing similiar things (for example: helping with housing constructing for the poor in the Dominican Republic).
I'm not surprised you've taken flak for it. It's a class issue, I imagine; most of those left organizations are run by the petty bourgeoisie, not workers, right?

The New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile area is essentially a "failed state" region -- akin to Somalia and Rwanda in the 1990s, and both Afghanistan and Iraq today. This is the time when it is most essential for communists to step forward and demonstrate in practice what it means to build a workers' republic.

Miles

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I'm not surprised you've taken flak for it. It's a class issue, I imagine; most of those left organizations are run by the petty bourgeoisie, not workers, right?

Aren't most "left" organizations period? :)

I'm interested in your analyses of the area as a "failed state" region. I'd like to see further elaboration on it if it's possible. Maybe in another thread?

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 09:38 AM

I'm not surprised you've taken flak for it. It's a class issue, I imagine; most of those left organizations are run by the petty bourgeoisie, not workers, right?

Aren't most "left" organizations period? :)

I'm interested in your analyses of the area as a "failed state" region. I'd like to see further elaboration on it if it's possible. Maybe in another thread?
We have an article slated for the next issue of Workers' Republic on how communists should act in situations like this, as well as in events like 9/11 (or 7/7). But if you want to start a thread about it here on RevLeft, by all means....

Miles

[Ele'ill]

Interesting responses everyone.
Thank you.

[RedCeltic]

Speaking of Venezuela, they just donated 1 million dollars to relief efforts in the gulf region, and are planning on helping to provide supplies and gas via CITGO... this to a nation that has been openly hostile to it's present leader Hugo Chavez.

It is sad to note that search and rescue efforts have today been suspended as emergency personnel are protecting what's obviously more important... PROPERTY! Forget saving people's lives... people are stealing bread and clothing! It's no wonder the people down there are pissed! There aren’t even enough national Guardsmen because most are serving in Iraq. It would be not as much of a problem if the guard wasn't being used to fight overseas in an illegal war!

The professionals can not even keep the peace and make it safe enough for FEMA and the Red Cross, yet you expect a group of anarchists to go down there and set up Food Not Bombs?

The best thing people can do right now is to donate whatever you can to the Red Cross, and stay away from there.

It is sad when individuals such as the author of this thread use a major natural disaster to attack the left... and not even any real left wing organizations but Black Bloc... which is an anarchist tactic used in protests to draw police attention away from the main body of protesters.

Yet if we want to make this a capitalism vs. socialism type debate, than how about looking at the lack of response from the federal government and lack of planning involved. The Gulf/ Mississippi delta region is by far one of the poorest regions in the United States. New Orleans is a major US city... yet devastation at such magnitude if it were to hit NY or LA would spur a major rescue and relief effort of such never seen in the US.

So the major question in my mind really is, what is the connection between the pitiful response from the federal Govt. and the fact that most affected are poor black people?

[workersunity]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 12:04 AM


But the 'best interest' to communism would be to kill everyone opposed to it.


Precisely why communism has no freedom.
your a fucking joke do you realize that?

how can there be no freedom if theres no govt, you have noone restricting your freedom, but in capitalism you do something on your own, like speak out your stoned as a terrorist, or something similar

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Comrade,

People like him, who not even a basic grasp of communist theory, but are quick to denounce it, aren't worth arguing with. Especially when they've repeatidely been pointed in the direction of sources on the subject.

[quincunx5]

your a fucking joke do you realize that?

how can there be no freedom if theres no govt, you have noone restricting your freedom, but in capitalism you do something on your own, like speak out your stoned as a terrorist, or something similar


You must be the fucking joke. I don't know where you got the idea that capitalism needs government. I am not an apoligist for what goes on today, I too agree that the federal government has numerously shown that it can't do anything right. Society will be better off if government would do practically nothing, or disappear all together.



People like him, who not even a basic grasp of communist theory, but are quick to denounce it, aren't worth arguing with. Especially when they've repeatidely been pointed in the direction of sources on the subject.


And I have repeatedly said that I have read (in the past) all the sources I was pointed to.

You people don't seem to grasp what capitalism is. Capitalism is not a social structure (unlike what a dictionary tells you) it is simply what happens when you trade, save, and reinvest.

You will not hear me tell you that Russia, China, N Korea, or Cuba were/are communist. Communism can not be achieved.

[Decolonize The Left]

QuinCun,

If communism has never been achieved, and we have never seen the proper development of communism in history, how can you claim it cannot be achieved?

To claim something cannot be achieved it to claim to know the future, surely you don't claim to do this?

-- August

[quincunx5]

If communism has never been achieved, and we have never seen the proper development of communism in history, how can you claim it cannot be achieved?

To claim something cannot be achieved it to claim to know the future, surely you don't claim to do this?


Let me explain by suggesting the revolution actually occured. We now have anarcho-communism.

The moment something is traded, saved for future use, and then reinvested into something else - is the moment we have anarcho-capitalism.

That is what I feel would occur.

For a good understaing read Bastiat's Essays on Political Economy:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15962/15962-h/15962-h.htm
If you don't have the time just read the short stories: "Sack of Corn", "The Plane".