The need of Supermen and Tragic Heroes

[JuanPabloDuarte]

Hello all: one of the things that can make us stronger, because as you know the world is a battle and history of forces is to learn and to apply the philosophy of ancient greeks, they were strong, stoic, people. Even though their political systems were oppressive but we have to learn the possitive of them, to be real strong, stoic, to stand suffering and to overcome stronger starting from any point of strength in order to crusch the capitalist system forever

unsoberx

[MoscowFarewell]

The Greeks Invented Democracy, didn't they? And if any, we should take ideas from the Spartans.


They had an idea that it was not to ask how many lie with the enemy, but where they were. They're probably the most honorable and most heroic of all the Mediterranians.

[JuanPabloDuarte]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 03:01 AM
The Greeks Invented Democracy, didn't they? And if any, we should take ideas from the Spartans.


They had an idea that it was not to ask how many lie with the enemy, but where they were. They're probably the most honorable and most heroic of all the Mediterranians.


Yeah the ancient greeks devoted their daily routines to basically 2 things: reading + exercising, they said that there was a link between physical strength and mental strength, like a bodybuilder Lee Haney he said: "Where the mind goes, the body goes" and i think that modern revolutionaries need to use every aspect that can help us become stronger to have more will and more self esteem

unsoberx

[Clarksist]

The Greeks Invented Democracy, didn't they? And if any, we should take ideas from the Spartans.


Well, they invented the plutocracy.

Where all the rich Greek slave owners came together to vote on stuff.


They had an idea that it was not to ask how many lie with the enemy, but where they were. They're probably the most honorable and most heroic of all the Mediterranians.


The same people who suppressed women?

How "heroic".

[Rasta Sapian]

It would be beneficial to borrow some of the cultural practices from the ancient greek empire, ie. philosophers lecturing outdoors with nature as a leaning tool. More focus on the arts, and the labour of arts/architechture, ect.

They were well trained soildiers and lived a more or less liberal life, as the city states were wealthy from trade, self-sufficiant farmers and trades workers.

They however are a bit dated, in our modernized enlightended eyes: slavery was legal, it was legal to beat your wife and children, or barter for there lives, many greeks committed murder and gay realtions at free will.

So yes, one hand we can absorb there strength and wisdom but on the other we just may not want to go there.

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 03:13 PM

The Greeks Invented Democracy, didn't they? And if any, we should take ideas from the Spartans.


Well, they invented the plutocracy.

Where all the rich Greek slave owners came together to vote on stuff.


They had an idea that it was not to ask how many lie with the enemy, but where they were. They're probably the most honorable and most heroic of all the Mediterranians.


The same people who suppressed women?

How "heroic".
Actually, if you were intelligent, you would know the Spartans were the first to educate women.

[monkeydust]

Well, they invented the plutocracy.

Where all the rich Greek slave owners came together to vote on stuff.


That's not at all true, however.

I think you'll find that every citizen was able to vote on matters, nor were they often restricted by matters of practicality - the richest Athenians who were the ones who lived the furthest away from the Pnyx, and thus had the most difficulty participating.

Everyone could hold office or participate on the jury courts, in fact you were subsidised by the state to do so.

In addition, when the rich did hold posts, they were always totally accountable. For instance, in 406 at Arginusae a board of 8 generals was executed by the demos for failing in their duties. If anything, the demos made them too accountable.


The same people who suppressed women?

This is also a pathetic non-criticism. Not only were the Spartans actually surprisingly tolerant of women compared to other greeks - including the Athenians - but you cannot condemn any society for being subject to the prejudices of its time. Historically, it's almost impossible to conceive of a Greek state treating women equally. Couldn't happen in those circumstances.

[Reds]

athens was more democratic but women could not vote. sparta was more egalitarian with every one gettin the same size housing and plots of land while egypt was an absolutist monarchy women hade all the same rights as men.

[Another]

Be cautious comrades.

The spartan social regiment, though historically interesting is hardly revolutionary.

A stern hierarchy was enforced.

Infirm children were killed by the state.

The Spartans even organized a day in their yearly cycle specifically set apart to maliciously beat their slaves into submission.

I feel it is unwise to draw inspiration from such a narrow nationalist point of view.

[God of Imperia]

You're right, they were very cruel, against themselves and their slaves.
But on the other hand, Sparta was a close community. The state was the most important thing in their lives. Almost everything involved protecting their way of living.
Even though we shouldn't live like they did in those days, but there's nothing wrong with adopting some of their strenghts. (In history nothing is black or white.)

[Quota 76 denial]

Hey wait, how does the greek notion of metaphysics aid us? Is it not the system that capital is based around? Take specialization, this ideology is used to separate the proletariat but in all instances greek civilizations used this idea to benefit the metaphysical capital. Marx even argues against plato in Capital on this issue. We should reject the Spartans because they were devoted to oppression, they lived in a highly symbolic police state. Of course reverting to the heros of the greeks only creates the assumption that we like the tragedy to befall us. WE want the the greek capitalistic metaphysics!

[RevolverNo9]

we should take ideas from the Spartans.
...

The same people who suppressed women?

I'm so sick of Marxists and materialist, supposedly rational leftists who should no better peddling such anachronistic and idealist drivel. On both sides. As has been, mentioned, if we are actually to be conscious of history (the necessity on which an understanding of histroical materialism is based) it is imperitive not to form history into concepts based on preconceived modern, morality. It is pure irrational anachronism. What do you understand of the contemporary mentality? Evidently, nothing. Without an understanding of the mentality - which most of us would agree is based on contemporary economic relations, you have no right to make historical analysis.

Cannibalism and infanticide were both once common practices. Why? Many on this board, it would seem, would say it is because these people were sick, inhuman and absurd. Actually its social acceptance is indicative of current dialectic - the economic struggle. IT WAS NECESSARY TO SURVIVE! Similarly, there will be those who - absurdly - judge by modern, bourgeois morality the social formation of feudalism, the exploitation of the land. If one actually cared an ounce for understanding rather than misguided, ideological fumblings, they could state how conditions of public disinteigration compelled a system of private dependencies.

Therefore, let us be rational when we consider ancient Sparta. Firstly, judged by the material, histroical situation, the top Spartan upper classes showed great equality in the rights of the sexes. As males were from the age of 7 taken into constant military training females enjoyed an incredible amount of poltical control (unlike in Athens where, literally, they were not alowed to leave the house due to the risk of illegitmiate children). Women in Sparta also experienced sexual freedom, lesbian orgies being an common course taken during large religious ceremonies. However it is important to remember that the class of Spartans we are considering was miniscure, supported by great masses of indigenous slaves and workers. Any romantic attatchment to Spartan communalism must be rejected: their actions were dictated not just by severe hierarchical dictates but also extreme social conditioning which rendered them utterly loyal and unquestioning.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Fuck the classical period.
I mean, seriously, it's one thing to understand history, it's another to play appologist for old forms of class society, and, worse, idealize their social/political structures and philosophies.
For example, as a Marxist, I understand feudalism, but, for chrissake, I'm not going to pretend it had muich redeeming value as a system of organization beyyond the unfortunate necessity of its circumstances.

[RevolverNo9]

it's another to play appologist for old forms of class society, and, worse, idealize their social/political structures and philosophies.

Er, was that not exactly what I was saying? My point is it's easy not to praise the systems of the past, but still more people fall into the trap of going the otherway and making moral judgements. As I said, the feudal structure was a compulsion. I certainly highlight no merit in that system, I just call for people to understand such phenomena rather than anachronisticly condemn them which is just as idealistic as exalting them. This method is historical materialism, or Marxism.

[slim]

Originally posted by MoscowFarewell+Sep 10 2005, 05:30 AM--> (MoscowFarewell @ Sep 10 2005, 05:30 AM)
[email protected] 9 2005, 03:13 PM

The Greeks Invented Democracy, didn't they? And if any, we should take ideas from the Spartans.


Well, they invented the plutocracy.

Where all the rich Greek slave owners came together to vote on stuff.


They had an idea that it was not to ask how many lie with the enemy, but where they were. They're probably the most honorable and most heroic of all the Mediterranians.


The same people who suppressed women?

How "heroic".
Actually, if you were intelligent, you would know the Spartans were the first to educate women. [/b]
I was reading this post with interest then i had to comment on this.

Come on Moscow-whatever the rest is. There is distinction between knowledge and wisdom. Plus, they only taught rich girls so they could run the home while the men were at war killing rebellious slaves.

[Quota 76 denial]

Therefore, let us be rational when we consider ancient Sparta. Firstly, judged by the material, histroical situation, the top Spartan upper classes showed great equality in the rights of the sexes.


My question is what reason do you adhere to? Is it the reason of equality in general? And what gives reason to believe in the value of equality? Is there a moral reason associated with the spartans giving women power? Are you not giving a moral response?


There is distinction between knowledge and wisdom. Plus, they only taught rich girls so they could run the home while the men were at war killing rebellious slaves.

what sort of knowledge and wisdom are distinguished? And how does running the homeland seems to give equality? Of course these statements are only resolved in the logic or reason for supporting power in order to use power. Rationality resides in logic and this is resolved in the greek metaphysics. Go ahead and return to the greeks be rational and logical, I understand it is easier.

[slim]

Im arguing that the greeks arent a good role model for democracy. I agree with Clarksist and was irritated by the Moscow person's attack on Clarksist's intelligence - a statement that is severely out of place. Not knowing a fact does not make Clarksist any less intelligent.

[Quota 76 denial]

Isn't accepting democracy a form of acceptance to greek tradition? I of course did not ask a rhetorical question concerning knowledge, nor did I want to defend another's intelligence with the question. I am concerned that values that are representable in democracy transcended from the greeks, and their notions, ultimately permeated into a totality in thought. As a totality many of our usages of terminology also is derived from greeks, therefore their influence on our culture assumes a direct problem for what is knowledge and metaphysics for our destined reality and the omnipresent reality that is often refered to as "what we experience". The problem goes deeper than that in logic where we have exceeded possibility with right and wrong, good and evil. And it seems to me that contemporary interpretation of reality only revolves around the "benefit", the "good", and "rights". I'm essentially asking if we want this understanding? I mean if we reject the greeks then don't we have to reject many of our worldly understandings? I am asking you to defend your intelligence from greeks/ western philosophy in general. That also means reject being skeptical, the skeptic only allows for rhetorical questions, I am asking you to learn what you are not as an individual by manifesting your individuality.
I never claimed the right I reject the right by proclaiming the intention of those who think they are right. Refer to the following question: ?. Is this right? Is this wrong? Give me an answer.

[slim]

I agree that the western style of thinking and more specifically, in running countries and starting wars, has been taken and adapted from the Ancient Greeks.

However, i feel that the future is more important than the past and we shouldnt look at the past, which is flawed, for inspiration.

[Quota 76 denial]

Then what should be our inspiration? what gets us out of the logic of the greeks, and power? what gives our notions wieght? Of course it is one thing to reject a bad system but is it possible to reject the notion of past if we are geared to the future? (that last question sounds like a riddle) In our day age can we extinguish western thought with western thought? If we did that then wouldn't we fall into the trap that western philosophy presents, efficiency and simplification. I mean this may be the reason to understand historicity as a constant unfolding but in all instance inspiration is imminent in accordnace with history. This is the problem, and our solution maybe a simple "forgetting".

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by slim+Oct 26 2005, 02:47 PM--> (slim @ Oct 26 2005, 02:47 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 05:30 AM

[email protected] 9 2005, 03:13 PM

The Greeks Invented Democracy, didn't they? And if any, we should take ideas from the Spartans.


Well, they invented the plutocracy.

Where all the rich Greek slave owners came together to vote on stuff.


They had an idea that it was not to ask how many lie with the enemy, but where they were. They're probably the most honorable and most heroic of all the Mediterranians.


The same people who suppressed women?

How "heroic".
Actually, if you were intelligent, you would know the Spartans were the first to educate women.
I was reading this post with interest then i had to comment on this.

Come on Moscow-whatever the rest is. There is distinction between knowledge and wisdom. Plus, they only taught rich girls so they could run the home while the men were at war killing rebellious slaves. [/b]
There was no real rich person, you didn't require money to survive in Spartan Society as much as any other society. It was required for women to take part in education since most men were in the military, which also gave them much activity and influence in political situation. In that time period, Spartan women were perhaps some of the most intelligent. You're foolish. By looking to the past we can know what to avoid in the future. If we did not, we'd still have the crusades and book burning. Would we not?

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 08:27 PM
There was no real rich person, you didn't require money to survive in Spartan Society as much as any other society. It was required for women to take part in education since most men were in the military, which also gave them much activity and influence in political situation. In that time period, Spartan women were perhaps some of the most intelligent. You're foolish. By looking to the past we can know what to avoid in the future. If we did not, we'd still have the crusades and book burning. Would we not?
Harem mistresses have had influence, it means nothing if the woman is not the equal in society. In Sparta, as with many ancient civilisations, true power derived from feat of arms.

But frankly that’s irrelevant. I fail to either care how the Spartans treated their women or to see how we should take them as an example. Their civilisation is long dead and those lessons that could be learned from it have been pored over by generations of historians. Sparta neither knew of nor struggled against capitalism and as such it belongs to another epoch of history altogether. History has much to teach us but those lessons most relevant begin with the rise of capitalism and end with yesterday.

[Quota 76 denial]

This is question begging the importance of history:

By looking to the past we can know what to avoid in the future. If we did not, we'd still have the crusades and book burning. Would we not?
Have we successfully avoided anything by looking to the past? maybe but definitely not book burnings or crusades. We have avoided book burnings because we made information "free", and in its freedom discourse, information, has assumed everything creating social relativism, making anything an ideology and a fetish. In other words every form of information becomes a commodity only to be exploited. Book burnings wanted to silence adversity to prevent meaning of other types of grand narratives, like witchcraft. Our society makes information open to all only to make the meaning irrelavant, again like witchcraft. Crusades still exist but are consciously used as an abuse of power, the cops patrolling my neighborhood are on a crusade against drug dealers. The border minute-men is on a crusade agianst illegal immigrants. How has looking to the past prevented either of these things, we openly exchanged our books for television, we should have burned them to give them a better symbolic death. To actually give a reason why we should try to read these things before extinction. We also exchanged ideology for silent crusades. Do you go up to the spartans of our age and tell them to stop patrolling your neighborhood?
I guess we learned a lot from history.