The IRA

[workersunity]

I dont know what to think of it, on the onehand the IRA wants a worker controlled economy, but on the other hand are nationalistic. I realize that in order to partake in the socialist revolution, the country needs to be united, which we come to the case of ireland, and dont go off on tangents, im trying to develop my views but need that extra help

[Batman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 04:52 AM
I dont know what to think of it, on the onehand the IRA wants a worker controlled economy, but on the other hand are nationalistic. I realize that in order to partake in the socialist revolution, the country needs to be united, which we come to the case of ireland, and dont go off on tangents, im trying to develop my views but need that extra help
The Provisional IRA hve currently disbanded, basicially. The Continuity IRA and Real IRA continue to function. The IRAs would claim to be anti-capitalist and socialist, their aims are a United 32 County Socialist Republic. In reality their aims are to drive the British army and British government out of Ireland, the people of Ireland will then decide what kind of soceity they want. There have been numerous splits in the Republican movement over its lack of a plan of social and economic levels, the Official IRA in 69, the INLA from the OIRA and in the thirties you might have heard of the Republican Congress, a grouping of Socialist Republicans.

Hope this has been of benefit but I suggest that you read up on the subject further.

[VietMinH]

However the problem with getting Britain our of Ireland is that most of Northern Ireland wishes to stay with Great Britain...

[Vanguard1917]

However the problem with getting Britain our of Ireland is that most of Northern Ireland wishes to stay with Great Britain...

Which is a product of decades of British anti-IRA and anti-Irish propaganda and political manipulation.

[coda]

1% margin the unionists have over the Republicans.

i always think they are nationalist only in the same way Latin America and all other people hold on to retaining their identity, i.e. culture, when fighting against imperialist invasions and acculturization.

[Scars]

It depends what IRA you're talking about. The Provisional IRA (the largest and most poweful IRA. When people talk about 'the' IRA they generally refering to teh Provos) were Nationalists then SocialistsTthe heavy Catholic influence meant that they were generally opposed to Communism and hard Socialism, mainly because the Vatican excommunicated anyone who publically supported the Communist movement while professing to be a Catholic. The Socialism put forward by Sein Finn was token as best, more cashing in on buzz words than anything material.

The Real IRA were the Communists expelled from the original IRA when they split into the Provos and the Real. I believe they were slightly influenced by Maoism (a protracted peoples war), but I think they supported the USSR over China. They became inactive long before the Provos, mainly because most of the skilled bomb makers and weapons stayed with the Provos and the Real IRA was almost ripped apart by internal fighting.

The Real IRA disbanded after the blotched Omagh bombing, which destroyed 95% of their support. The really stubborn ones formed the Continuity IRA, which is essentially only a name on paper.

There's also the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) who are like the Provos but Socialist first, Nationalist second. More serious about Socialism than Sein Finn, but like the Real IRA they suffered from internal conflict and were never as skilled or well armed as the Provos. They also lacked the logistics to sustian a long term, large scale campaign. Their political branch was also weaker than Sein Finn and still is.

As for popular support, it's a highly debatable thing. If there was a vote tommorow they'd stay part of Britain, solely because there are still more Protestants than there are Catholics. However the Catholic birthrate is higher than the Protestant one and if I remember correctly they will be the majority by 2010, so they might reunite then.

There's also the issue about the Republic wanting Northern Ireland- the last thing they need is a pissed of Protestant minority and they don't have a whole lot to gain from Northern Ireland becoming part of the Republic. Remember the IRA were the people who opposed the formation of the Free Irish State, and later the Republic.

700 years on and Ireland's still a fucking mess.

[workersunity]

thanks for the responses, i guess id be more in tune with the IRSP, Irish Republican Socialist Party

[Batman]

The Real IRA were the Communists expelled from the original IRA when they split into the Provos and the Real. I believe they were slightly influenced by Maoism (a protracted peoples war), but I think they supported the USSR over China. They became inactive long before the Provos, mainly because most of the skilled bomb makers and weapons stayed with the Provos and the Real IRA was almost ripped apart by internal fighting.


Dont know where you got that from. The Real IRA are not Maoists. In Irealnd they'd be described as the far-nationalist group, not in the fascist sense though, they'd still be progressive. As progressive as a Revolutionary Guerilla Army can be. They broke away in 1998 when the Army Council of the PIRA voted to accept a ceasefire.


The Real IRA disbanded after the blotched Omagh bombing, which destroyed 95% of their support. The really stubborn ones formed the Continuity IRA, which is essentially only a name on paper.


The Real IRA continue to function, a faction of theirs issued a statement from Portlaoise prison stated that the Army should disband. These prisoners make up the New Republican Forum. The CIRA was formed in 1986 when the PIRA dropped its policy of absteintionism. Sinn Fein done the same and Republican Sinn Fein was formed.


There's also the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) who are like the Provos but Socialist first, Nationalist second. More serious about Socialism than Sein Finn, but like the Real IRA they suffered from internal conflict and were never as skilled or well armed as the Provos. They also lacked the logistics to sustian a long term, large scale campaign. Their political branch was also weaker than Sein Finn and still is.


The INLA were as skilled as the PIRA and more politically articulate than the Provos IMO. Their aims, initially, was not an all out guerilla war because they saw the limitations of this tactic. Instead they supported a social revolt where the Irish people would liberate themselves, not a military vanguard like the IRA.


As for popular support, it's a highly debatable thing. If there was a vote tommorow they'd stay part of Britain, solely because there are still more Protestants than there are Catholics. However the Catholic birthrate is higher than the Protestant one and if I remember correctly they will be the majority by 2010, so they might reunite then.


You are basing this on sectarian grounds. There are many Catholics who have made their living on the backs of the Crown. The Irish Capitalist class do not want a United Ireland, it is not in their interests. Another thing is, Unionist make up 18% of the population of Ireland yet they control the destinies of the Irish people, it's a totally undemocratic situation.


However the problem with getting Britain our of Ireland is that most of Northern Ireland wishes to stay with Great Britain...

You have to examine the circumstances that 'Northern' Ireland came about. Ireland was partitioned undemocraticially on sectarians lines in 1920, under the Government of Ireland Act by the British Establishment. No vote, Unionist or Nationalist was cast to partition the country.

[JC1]

As for popular support, it's a highly debatable thing. If there was a vote tommorow they'd stay part of Britain, solely because there are still more Protestants than there are Catholics. However the Catholic birthrate is higher than the Protestant one and if I remember correctly they will be the majority by 2010, so they might reunite then.


I wish folks would stop refering to this as a religious issue. The Ulsterites and the Green-Irish are distinct natinol grouping's. The INLA, IRA and Various Splits, never refer to Catholism in there rhetoric. Indee, the only ones who refer to God are the violent Ulster Millitia's like to the UVF (There slogan is "God and Ulster").


However the problem with getting Britain our of Ireland is that most of Northern Ireland wishes to stay with Great Britain...

Common misconception. Indeed, untill recently, the majority of millitias there were made up of ethnic Orangemen suppourted the Idea of a independent republic of Ulster.

[TheReadMenace]

There's a book I'm reading on the IRA by Tim Pat Coogan. It's really good so far; really balanced.

Personally, I'm a fan of the IRA. I mean, despite some parts of it being extremely Catholic, heh. But the nationalistic part doesn't bother me, because it wasn't nationalistic in the Hitler sense. As far as I understand, they just wanted Ireland to belong to Ireland, not Britain. At least that's what I inferred from the releases I've read.

It is a sad thing about their disbanding, though.

And as far as Northern Ireland and Britain go...

The loyalists shouldn't necessarily be frowned upon and condemned; they're victims, just as Americans who are proud of America are victims, of deceit and lies fed by the government. After 800 years of dominance, do you think that everyone would think that Britain was just exploiting them? It shouldn't be too surprising, just as it isn't too surprising that there are some in Iraq who favour US intervention. They're just blind, and haven't been exposed enough to different ideas, because their own have been carefully shaped and molded by foreign powers.

My two cents.

Andrew

By the way, Batman: what does your signature say? I'm trying to learn Irish, but I'm not making too much progress :(

[Defiance]

...

[Scars]

Aw, shite. I meant the offical IRA teh first time, not the Real IRA. Tis been a while since I've talked about Irish politics, which are all very complex and a fucking mess really.

The main problem with the IRA as a guerilla force was their structure, or lack there of and their discipline, or lack there of. The massive differences in teh quality of IRA soldiers also didn't help one bit, the Belfast Brigade were not the best examples of Guerrilla fighters Ireland has ever offered up.

Gaelic is a fucking hard language to learn, if at all possible try to go to classes or track down someone who can speak it rather than trying teach yourself it. English and Gaelic are very different, so making the leap from one to the other is a challange to say the least.

[Batman]

Aw, shite. I meant the offical IRA teh first time, not the Real IRA. Tis been a while since I've talked about Irish politics, which are all very complex and a fucking mess really.


Yes, the Official IRA or 'Stickies' would have been the left-wing IRA up until the mid seventies when they called a ceasefire and ceased to exist as an anti-imperialist guerilla army. They were classed as 'Stalinist' for their undemocratic structures and basicially following the Stalinist line. They reverted to reformism in the seventies and abandoned the armed struggle. From this the IRSM came about. Official Sinn Fein - The Workers Party continued to exist up until 1983 when they dropped the OSF part and were simply the Workers Party. They managed to get a few representatives elevted to the 26 County Dáil but then they split again into Democratic Left, they then more or less were absorbed into the Labour Party.


The main problem with the IRA as a guerilla force was their structure, or lack there of and their discipline, or lack there of. The massive differences in teh quality of IRA soldiers also didn't help one bit, the Belfast Brigade were not the best examples of Guerrilla fighters Ireland has ever offered up.


I wouldnt necessarilly agree with that. The IRA was one of the greated guerilla armies there ever was. When you take a look at what they were up against you have to admire them.


Gaelic is a fucking hard language to learn, if at all possible try to go to classes or track down someone who can speak it rather than trying teach yourself it. English and Gaelic are very different, so making the leap from one to the other is a challange to say the least.


Cosúil le gach rud eile i do shaoil togann sé ám chen dul i dtáithí leis an dteanga.

Come to Ireland and visit the Gaeltacht, that will improve it.

[Zapata]

the IRA has the same problem as too many other anti-imperialist groups. too often their strikes take the lives of innocent people, not solely the soldiers and leaders of the british. and now they've agreed to disarm. sinn fein will not be able to keep an active struggle going for the freedom of ulster as long as great britain wants it, which of course won't ever change. and even the catholics of ulster, after making the conflict into a religious issue, seem to have lost their will for the fight.

[James]

So the general feeling is taking the side of the nationalistic freedom fighters: but what about the nationalists who are UK nationalists: i.e. those who do not want to be part of ireland.
Its not as if they have just recently moved there.
They have history there too.


Either way, nationalism seems bit of a diversion to me. Why get hung up over it?

[Batman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:25 PM
So the general feeling is taking the side of the nationalistic freedom fighters: but what about the nationalists who are UK nationalists: i.e. those who do not want to be part of ireland.
Its not as if they have just recently moved there.
They have history there too.


Either way, nationalism seems bit of a diversion to me. Why get hung up over it?
I'd have trouble with the term 'nationalist'. A lot of Irish anti-imperialists and revolutionaries are not nationalist but socialist and progressive at that. The Unionists are a minority in the country, they should not have the right to dictate to the whole country. They are also the most reactionary elements in Irish soiety with links to fascist groups in Britain, like Combat 18 etc

[Batman]

National Liberation is but one aspect to the struggle. The aim is Socialism. But for Socialism to come about, the country has to finish its struggle for national liberation.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:25 PM
So the general feeling is taking the side of the nationalistic freedom fighters: but what about the nationalists who are UK nationalists: i.e. those who do not want to be part of ireland.
Its not as if they have just recently moved there.
They have history there too.


Either way, nationalism seems bit of a diversion to me. Why get hung up over it?
The problem with arguing abstractly is that you miss the details and facts of the situation and thus make the wrong conclucsion.

Read this (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=40299&st=0&#entry1291934828) that I posted on the politics forum to understand why British rule must end for the island of Ireland to be liberated from oppression and exploitation.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 11:18 PM
The Real IRA were the Communists expelled from the original IRA when they split into the Provos and the Real. I believe they were slightly influenced by Maoism (a protracted peoples war), but I think they supported the USSR over China. They became inactive long before the Provos, mainly because most of the skilled bomb makers and weapons stayed with the Provos and the Real IRA was almost ripped apart by internal fighting.

The Real IRA disbanded after the blotched Omagh bombing, which destroyed 95% of their support. The really stubborn ones formed the Continuity IRA, which is essentially only a name on paper.
Hmm, I've never heard anything like this before. I talk to their supporters and read Sovereign Nation regularly, but have not found evidence of their Maoist orientation.

Also they didn't disband after Omagh, I'm sure of that. Some of the leadership called for them to from the dock and thus resigned their membership.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 04:35 AM
By the way, Batman: what does your signature say? I'm trying to learn Irish, but I'm not making too much progress :(
It says 'workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains'.

[Scars]

<<Hmm, I&#39;ve never heard anything like this before. I talk to their supporters and read Sovereign Nation regularly, but have not found evidence of their Maoist orientation.>>

I didn&#39;t mean they were Maoist, I meant that they were influenced by some Maoist ideas- namely the People&#39;s War ("Politics is war, war is simply an extension of politics" "Every Communist must understand the truth that political power grows out the barrel of a gun" "Our policy is that the party must control the gun, the gun must never be allowed to control the party" and other such quotes. I&#39;m not sure if I should be worried that I can quote these from heart).

I&#39;m not doing very well in this thread am I? <_<

<<I wouldnt necessarilly agree with that. The IRA was one of the greated guerilla armies there ever was. When you take a look at what they were up against you have to admire them.>>

Their efforts, while heroic, were doomed to failure because they employed tactics that did them no favours. They also carried out their political struggle incorrectly and did not build a social base to work from. They also managed to alienate thousands of people not only at home, but abroad through various atrocities (bombing Protestant pubs for solely secterian reasons, for example), and doing dumb things (generally relating to a lack of discipline- IRA volunteer grabbing his gun and shooting someone who he got into an arguement with, for example). As I&#39;ve already said, the Belfast IRA were not that great and this didn&#39;t help- the Derry IRA on the other hand would definately be the cream of the crop in my opinion. Organised, disciplined, skilled and well trained. I think the Belfast IRA suffered from having too many young, idealistic and/or stupid recruits who were joining primarily to get a gun so as to get their revenge.

They would be one of the best guerrilla groups in Europe, but over all they don&#39;t rank highly. The NLF (&#39;Viet Cong&#39;), Hizbullah (Lebanese, not Turkish) and PKK (&#39;Kurdistan Workers Party&#39;, operated in South Turkey) would be better examples Nationalist Guerrillas and were superior to the Provos in almost every way imaginable.

<<Cosúil le gach rud eile i do shaoil togann sé ám chen dul i dtáithí leis an dteanga>>

See what I mean? :lol:

I reject Nationalism as a flawed ideology. There is no Irish working class, or English working class, or Pakistani working class, or Chinese working class- there is only THE working class. Dividing the workers into nation states and telling them that they are different to workers in other countries only serves to strengthen the bosses position.

PLP postion (unfortunatley it&#39;s a PDF, a direct scan of it from their mag...but it&#39;s worth the read. Better to save it than read it online):
http://www.plp.org/pl_magazine/nationalismpl69.pdf

I&#39;m not as extreme as them, or think such big generalisations are a good thing though.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 01:56 AM
<<Hmm, I&#39;ve never heard anything like this before. I talk to their supporters and read Sovereign Nation regularly, but have not found evidence of their Maoist orientation.>>

I didn&#39;t mean they were Maoist, I meant that they were influenced by some Maoist ideas- namely the People&#39;s War ("Politics is war, war is simply an extension of politics" "Every Communist must understand the truth that political power grows out the barrel of a gun" "Our policy is that the party must control the gun, the gun must never be allowed to control the party" and other such quotes. I&#39;m not sure if I should be worried that I can quote these from heart).
Ah, ok, I see your point.


As I&#39;ve already said, the Belfast IRA were not that great and this didn&#39;t help- the Derry IRA on the other hand would definately be the cream of the crop in my opinion. Organised, disciplined, skilled and well trained. I think the Belfast IRA suffered from having too many young, idealistic and/or stupid recruits who were joining primarily to get a gun so as to get their revenge.


The Derry Brigade weren&#39;t the cream of the crop, and had arranged an unofficial ceasefire years before the rest of the PIRA in fact.

The south Armagh and east Tyrone PIRA were definitely the cream of the crop. Two active service units of the Tyrone Brigade were wiped out in one ambush by the British SAS, that&#39;s how dangerous they were considered.


They would be one of the best guerrilla groups in Europe, but over all they don&#39;t rank highly. The NLF (&#39;Viet Cong&#39;), Hizbullah (Lebanese, not Turkish) and PKK (&#39;Kurdistan Workers Party&#39;, operated in South Turkey) would be better examples Nationalist Guerrillas and were superior to the Provos in almost every way imaginable.


The tactics of the sArmagh PIRA are now being used in Colombia by the Farc, such as large home made mortar bombs and one shot, 3/4 mile sniper attacks. The Provos and the INLA were pretty cutting edge and developed some devestating attacks that other resistance movements are now copying.


<<Cosúil le gach rud eile i do shaoil togann sé ám chen dul i dtáithí leis an dteanga>>

See what I mean? :lol:

I reject Nationalism as a flawed ideology. There is no Irish working class, or English working class, or Pakistani working class, or Chinese working class- there is only THE working class. Dividing the workers into nation states and telling them that they are different to workers in other countries only serves to strengthen the bosses position.

I don&#39;t know that all struggles for National Liberation can be correctly labelled &#39;nationalist&#39;. The Irish Republican Socialist Movement&#39;s closest allies have been the PFLP, Action Directe, the Red Brigades, the revolutionary currents in Venezuala, Cuba, and the Angry Brigades of Britain, whom the IRSM released joint statements with. You can read them here. (http://www.spunk.org/texts/groups/agb/sp000541.txt)

[slim]

It is a war of state sponsored religious oppression of a largely unemployed catholic minority.

Im not going to sit here naming names or pointing fingers but I can say that the rise of the IRA was inevitable. Stories of oppression and abuse by the army directed at catholic relatives are appalling.

The catholics of northern Ireland deserve a better way of life, perhaps the IRA werent the best way but they were the only way really.

[Batman]

Originally posted by OglachMcGlinchey+Sep 9 2005, 08:26 PM--> (OglachMcGlinchey @ Sep 9 2005, 08:26 PM)
[email protected] 9 2005, 04:35 AM
By the way, Batman: what does your signature say? I&#39;m trying to learn Irish, but I&#39;m not making too much progress :(
It says &#39;workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains&#39;. [/b]
Yeah, that&#39;s basicially it. &#39;Workers and downtrodden of all countries unite&#33;&#39;