how to start a revolution

[novemba]

Dear Comrades (all of you),

For those of you frequent to this board, I'm sure you've seen posts about the writings that I plan on posting. This is a pre-post just to see what popular opinion the board has on the subjects that I'm writing about. I am in the process of developing a theory revolving around the revolutionary potential in demonstrations and protests. So I'm here to raise a few points and see what you guys think about it.

Revolution is popular insurrection.

All of us here more or less agree that the revolution must come about as a mass uprising of people. Whether you believe it should be provoked by a select group of people or not, whether you think it should be this or that, we all agree on that one point. Now, I'm sick of all this bickering and shit, so I'm going to break it down for you. THE REVOLUTION MUST HAPPEN. NOW. fuck theory, it comes later...TRUST ME! The revolution must happen now! Where will it happen you ask? At protests, at demonstrations, AT RIOTS!!! We have to hit the streets and take back what is rightfully the peoples! AT...ANY...COST! I wish upon humanity that this could all be done peacefully, I WISH WITH MY HEART AND SOUL!!!! BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THEY ARE KILLING HUMANITY OFF LITTLE BY LITTLE FOR PERSONAL GAIN, AND ALL WE DO IS WATCH!!!!! The revolution MUST HAPPEN! I can't even BEGIN to count the COUNTLESS hours all the members of this board have sat around on their computers typing!!!!!!! THIS THEORY AND THAT THEORY, WE DONT HAVE TIME FOR THEORY RIGHT NOW, AS LONG AS OUR HEARTS ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE THE REST WILL FOLLOW!!! AS LONG AS WE FIGHT FOR THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE....AS LONG AS WE ARE THE PEOPLE..............

WE CANNOT BE STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...
......
...because of these major points, this is what I propose. the revolution is not in the hands of me, its not in the hands of you, its in the hands of us, nothing for yourselves, everything for everyone! i do not have the power, or even the RIGHT, to sit and discuss theory, THE PEOPLE WILL DECIDE THE THEORY, Marx laid down the guidelines, he told us what he thought would happen, HE DIDN'T TELL US TO SIT AROUND AND WATCH AS OUR RIGHTS ARE STOLEN IN FRONT OF OUR FACES!!!!!!!!! MARX BELIEVED IN THE NATURAL EVOLUTION OF SOCIETY, and debating theory and trying to change HISTORY'S COURSE BECAUSE OF YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS IS COUNTERREVOLUTIONARY!!! WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IS INEVITABLE, YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT, I CAN'T CHANGE IT, WE MUST put faith in the people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW YOUR HEARTS THE PATH OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THE REST WILLLLLLLLLLLLLL FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!
....
........
....the revolution will happen, and it will be spontaneous. All we can do until then is fight for a better world. And that's why I am in the process of writing mini-manuals on how to make this revolution happen. Who's with me?

[Organic Revolution]

"rebellion can happen if you hold the line."

[papi]

I completely support you and when I advocated a chat (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=39794) session, this was my position. I do not want to discuss theory either. If there is action to be taken it must begin. By not doing anything, that is what we are left with, nothing. If action occurs it will have global repurcussions, and theories of the future can only be based on the foundations we have left.
The discussions should be on a unified national effort. No matter how far apart we are, if we show national solidarity in scope and vision we show this is not a fly by night organization.

[Organic Revolution]

you need to have theory to have practice.

[novemba]

marxism wasn't made up from thin air...he observed natural evolution of societies WITHOUT any theory to follow, they just did what was right...

[papi]

naysayers Zack, for many, revolution never leaves the couch. I would rather be a decemberist and fail to inspire the next generation, than be an arm chair communist.

[Organic Revolution]

dont make assumptions about me. i dont sit around all day writing manifestos. the ones who are loudest about action wont do a thing.

[papi]

Good then we can count you in on action. Because I think what Zachary and I are talking about is direct action. You can write all the theory you want, but you will also take part in action. Now we have three.

[novemba]

in rise_up's defense, i think hes one of the most seasoned vets of DA on this board...lets not pick each other apart...if youre with me youre with me, if youre not youre not, let everyone else do they own thanggggggggg

[novemba]

bump! muy importante!

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 11:58 PM
in rise_up's defense, i think hes one of the most seasoned vets of DA on this board...lets not pick each other apart...if youre with me youre with me, if youre not youre not, let everyone else do they own thanggggggggg
shit i tried to get you to come get me in chicgo... you never came.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 11:32 PM
Good then we can count you in on action. Because I think what Zachary and I are talking about is direct action. You can write all the theory you want, but you will also take part in action. Now we have three.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. I'm a big advoctate of direct action, but i am not an advocate of ignorance and arrogance. You can not run into battle without an idea or theory behind your actions, it is foolish. You must not think only of the right now but AFTER the revolution.

[Subpar]

Yeah.. shoot first, ask questions later sounds more like a policy of the Bush Administration to me.

[TheReadMenace]

Exactly.

You can say we don't need theory right now, but how will that work? Destroy the current system...and then what? You don't want a state of chaos; we have to aid the people towards a common goal. Theory is necessary, because it gives direction.

I could go out and just start blowing up corporate buildings, even taking out leading politicians, and then people will follow and eventually together we overthrow the whole system...but have nothing to do afterwards except argue.

Theory needs to go hand-in-hand with direct action. Education is a MUST, debate is a MUST, all those things that we argue over and get angry about in those petty disagreements - those things are a MUST! Why? Because we can't go into a new world with completely conflicting ideas, otherwise we're thrown into a state of chaos, or - even worse - left at the mercy of a stronger, hierarchical group that a majority may choose to follow because 'they know what they're talking about.' We can't have that, which is why we argue and fight over theory and semantics and practice. It's necessary, mates.

BUT........

I'm all for direct action :)


Andrew

[novemba]

look. i'm not talking about having NO theory...what I'm saying is most theory is about making revolution and why it's neccesary, afterwards there isn't much to debate about...so skip all the fluff and go fight!

[danny android]

you must have a plan to rebuild society after the capitalist system is crushed or else you will have nothing. Or just go back to the way things were before. There must be some kind of plan. Theory isn't all just about why there must be a revolution, it's about what you do afterwards that matters.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by danny [email protected] 31 2005, 07:20 PM
you must have a plan to rebuild society after the capitalist system is crushed or else you will have nothing. Or just go back to the way things were before. There must be some kind of plan. Theory isn't all just about why there must be a revolution, it's about what you do afterwards that matters.
Exactly! if you succed in your revolution without a plan, after you will just go, "fuck, what do we do now"

[novemba]

well with theory youd do the same thing.

"What the fuck do we do now?"

After we succesfully wage revolution and all the classic marxian revolutionary objectives are carried out, then we set up a people's democracy in which we eliminate class and all inequalities. The rest is just gonna fall into place...

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 03:48 AM
well with theory youd do the same thing.

"What the fuck do we do now?"

After we succesfully wage revolution and all the classic marxian revolutionary objectives are carried out, then we set up a people's democracy in which we eliminate class and all inequalities. The rest is just gonna fall into place...
It's not going to happen like that. You have to have somekind of a thing to be fighting towards not just something to be fighting against(capitalism). If you just destroy the current system and replace it with nothing that is moving backwards. And therefore your revolution was pointless. (unless of course you are a primitivist)

[MKS]

After we succesfully wage revolution and all the classic marxian revolutionary objectives are carried out, then we set up a people's democracy in which we eliminate class and all inequalities. The rest is just gonna fall into place...
Quote from Zackaria

I think you have oversimplified a very complex issue. Your zeal for action is admirable but you must be pragmatic, and patient. The developed world is not ready for any revolution, they will destory it and anyone who is a part of it. Revolutions in 3rd world nations have historicaly (sp) fallen apart, and turned into either brutal dictatorships (China, N. Korea, Cambodia, Russia) or puppet states for the Imperial powers. The only "successful" model you could point to is Cuba, and they have overwhelming poverty issues.

Revolutions begin in the hearts and minds of the people. Direct action, especially violent action will be reacted to violently. I know many on this board will disagree, but the only way to destory the system is to corrupt from the inside out, not the outside in. Democratic means, peacful means (strikes, boycotts, etc) are the only way to create real and lasting change.

[novemba]

revolution...now...!

nothing more, nothing less, after we wage revolution, we can hone our theory, but as long as we have the rough outline we'll be straight...im not saying we don't need theory, i'm saying now is not the time, we have to take whats ours...now! stop sitting on your asses, i wanna hear someone with a damn positive attitude, no one on this whole damn bored(intentional) seems ready to start this shit off!

LETS DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!! ARGGGGGGGGG!

[Organic Revolution]

what do you wanna do zach? run around on the streets with guns screaming revolt? wont happen

[novemba]

dawg, protests....lets just overwhelm them....!

get EVERYONE you know together and rally all us revolutionaries up and suprise attack, run to the hill...the rest is history......heres how it should go

protests>to the mountains(figurative)>guerrilla warfare>if successful, thumbs up> if not flee to another country and start a collective, gain support, try it again!!! people will join us as long as we are the people! i know my cats in brooklyn are ready for revolution. i know my cats in LA are ready for a revolution, i sure as HELL know my cats in New orleans are ready for a revolution, bolivia, chile, shit all of south america, asia, africa, the whole world! shit, put it this way, let the revolution be your snowball, push it down the hill and start an avalanche!!!!!!!!!

ARGGGGGGG!! REVOLUTION NOW!!!!!!!!

[Adam_Arachnid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 03:15 AM
Who's with me?
:ph34r: Ya, see now that's what I have been waiting on, I've said it the whole time, of course I'm with you! Let's make history. :ph34r:

[Adam_Arachnid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 04:29 AM


Revolutions begin in the hearts and minds of the people. Direct action, especially violent action will be reacted to violently. I know many on this board will disagree, but the only way to destory the system is to corrupt from the inside out, not the outside in. Democratic means, peacful means (strikes, boycotts, etc) are the only way to create real and lasting change.
You have a point. Like Henry Chavez is doing for Venizuela. Right? :huh:

[MKS]

The action that Zackaria has in mind will do nothing for the movement. Either they will end up dead, or in prison (probably dead). People in the developed world do not want revolution, and i doubt people in the 3rd world are going to listen to a "rich" guy from America.

You’re not thinking practically

[Commandante_Ant]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 02:30 PM
The action that Zackaria has in mind will do nothing for the movement. Either they will end up dead, or in prison (probably dead). People in the developed world do not want revolution, and i doubt people in the 3rd world are going to listen to a "rich" guy from America.

You’re not thinking practically
Ditto. Are the conditions really there for a revolution? I dont know the country you want a revolution in, i am guessing at America and if that is right, unfortunately no the conditions arent there. Its true that there isnt a large army presence in america, with the Iraqi war and whatever other wars they may have going on (which we may not know of), but it would still be a big enough force to wipe out any revolutionary force. It is VITAL that a revolution has the people on its side...look at the cuban revolution. In Cuba, they could could count of the people living in the Sierra Maestra, they could recruit etc. That Revolution succeeded. Che Guevara's attempts at revolution in the Congo and in Bolivia failed partly on poor organisation and also partly on the fact that the people never trusted Che, they didnt want him there although he was trying to help. He didnt have the support of the people therefore he was doomed to fail.

I would love to see a Revolution in America and in the whole world, bringing our socialist ideals to the forefront. But i do not see it happening any time soon....unless America brings in National Conscription which i'm sure would anger every American...that is the only way i see a Revolution happening in America.

Lets face it, the American people didnt like Bush but they still voted him in!! What does that tell you?

[RASH chris]

The thing you fail to understand is that there is a reason we aren't running around in the streets with guns right now. There is a reason there isn't a revolution.

ready?

The people don't want it. If the people wanted a revolution we'd be having one right now. You know other people who want a revolution? Great, so do I, but I know a shit load more who don't. The revolution will come when you don't know anybody who doesn't want one. All of society will reflect this revolutionary current, literature, movies, music, everything will be about rebellion, defiance and revolution. We're moving closer but we're clearly not there yet.

And all this talk about action before theory is bullshit. Want to see an example of what happens when people throw theory to the wind and just focus on action? Paris 1968. The amount of action was staggering, yet there was no defineable theory, and the first ever revolution in an industrialized nation failed. Because nobody was providing theory and reform minded communists and the labor aristocracy underminded it.

[novemba]

fine, sit on your asses.

ps - im not rich.

[RASH chris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:49 PM
fine, sit on your asses.

ps - im not rich.
Most of the people on this board are extremely active, not only in parties and organizing, but also in direct action. Many people on this board (including myself) participate in black blocs, and beyond that, organize them, many people on here are very insurrectionary minded and work towards and participate in insurrection when the opportunity presents itself.

But if 1,000 of us go off into the mountians with guns (by the way, where do you propose we get these guns, ammunition, clothes, medical supplies, communication equipment, etc that a guerrilla force requires?) then all that likely happens is the movement looses 1,000 of its most dedicated revolutionaries.

What gives you the impression that the masses will rise up? 51% of this country voted for Bush in the last election. His aproval rating isn't that high now, but we're not storming the gates of the white house (yet) either. So clearly the masses are not ready to rise up.

And taking such drastic actions which you are advocating will only make the radical left seem distanced from the rest of the country. We are at a crossroads right now, where the radical left is becoming more and more acceptable in the eyes of the working class, and thats what we need. The last thing we want to do is become terrorists and let the government use us as propaganda to bolster more support.

Rich? Who said anything about you being rich?

[MKS]

ps - im not rich.
Quote from Zackaria
Compared to many 3rd world citizens you are very rich, if you can afford a computer and internet, and I am assuming you live in a house or apartment.

That’s another thing many of us fail to understand, our lives are so much better than the real oppressed people throughout the world. Our words seem hollow and our actions could be construed as an imposition on another culture or cultures

[Organic Revolution]

i am a insurrectional anarchist but i dont believe in vanguards and trying to do the something that isnt ready to happen/

[peru_anny]

why does everyone have so many questions? here people have ideas and are trying to do anything in their power to change something. I support what Zacharias is saying. It doesnt matter if you fail at first. Everyone fails its just a matter of learning and trying again. SO get outside close down a gas station and feel better about making a difference

[peru_anny]

the perfect time will never come all you have is opportunities

[novemba]

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...opic=39992&st=0 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=39992&st=0)

[The Next One]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 04:29 AM

After we succesfully wage revolution and all the classic marxian revolutionary objectives are carried out, then we set up a people's democracy in which we eliminate class and all inequalities. The rest is just gonna fall into place...
Quote from Zackaria

I think you have oversimplified a very complex issue. Your zeal for action is admirable but you must be pragmatic, and patient. The developed world is not ready for any revolution, they will destory it and anyone who is a part of it. Revolutions in 3rd world nations have historicaly (sp) fallen apart, and turned into either brutal dictatorships (China, N. Korea, Cambodia, Russia) or puppet states for the Imperial powers. The only "successful" model you could point to is Cuba, and they have overwhelming poverty issues.

Revolutions begin in the hearts and minds of the people. Direct action, especially violent action will be reacted to violently. I know many on this board will disagree, but the only way to destory the system is to corrupt from the inside out, not the outside in. Democratic means, peacful means (strikes, boycotts, etc) are the only way to create real and lasting change.
I think there is one more avenue a revolution can take than the ones listed my MKS... education. If everybody on this site was a teacher, or a professor, or some sort of person of influence among the youth of today, we could weed capitalism out in two generations. Peacefully. The youth of today, and the youth of yesterday, are bored, they are looking for something to throw themselves into. Why not use that youthful energy? Why not spread revoltionary ideals in the school systems of every nation? Capitalism can be destryed without a single shot being fired or building being blown up (though that would be very gratifying).
I don't expect anyone to agree, but thinking about it is a good start.

[novemba]

people are totally misconstruing my statements, but i know why...we have theory...we all need to be treated equally in society, we want a stateless classless utiopa...right? everyone else can just fuck off...but i want people do start doing something about what they believe, and those that do, i commend you for it!

id risk my life for the revolution. would you?

[MKS]

id risk my life for the revolution. would you?

If a truly equal society were to come about through my sacrafice then yes I would risk my life. However since that end is almost impossible in the present day, and it would take alot longer to produce any real and lasting change, it is foolish to risk anyones life for the "revolution".

I also think you have no idea of the pain and tragedy of warfare. You have this notion that death for a cause is glorious when in reality it is bloody and horrible, and when its all over youre rotting in the ground. You're worth more to the movement alive than dead.

By pure example of this site the left is no where near a homogenous idealogy, until that happens rushing to any violent or decisive action is foolish.

Instead we must be like termites eating away, slowly at the core of capitalism and imperialism, so that when the time is right, the decisive action will be the death blow to the entire power structre.

[Victory_Or_Death]

hey Zackaria I'm with you all the way brother,
just one little hitch,
i'm in New Zealand and I know of no communist supporters or communist organisations.....
help anyone?

[novemba]

I'm sure there are organizations there, if not start one!

[danny android]

Where do you live zackaria and are you memeber of any organizations?

[novemba]

NC and nope, I don't think any near me are progressive enough

[Anon]

The revolution is well past due. However, I will not be joining you in the streets. You can not go toe to toe with the pigs. They will smear you all over the sidewalk like cheese on a cracker. Or reduce you to a puff of red spray in mid flight. That will get you nowhere.

The revolution requires asymetrical guerilla warfare. We need to pick up where The Weathermen left off, except this time we choose better targets and we do it all at once: Smash the control machine.

[RASH chris]

The state does exist. Walk outside, look at the pigs, look at the army. Capitalism does exist, look at your paycheck, look at your boss's.

Squatting and hopping trains is all well and fun but its not gonna bring down capitalism. You will never have enough people who are willing to just withdraw from the system. I am sure as hell not willing. I like my microwave and my television thank you very much.

The thought is reactionary in nature because it is discouraging people from making a difference and encouraging them to just call it quits. If we all just quit the system then who will agitate for change?

[Organic Revolution]

The state does exist. Walk outside, look at the pigs, look at the army. Capitalism does exist, look at your paycheck, look at your boss's.

do you work? have you ever worked, have you ever fought the cops, have you ever fought the army.. these are people... not government.


Squatting and hopping trains is all well and fun but its not gonna bring down capitalism.

how do you figure? there are hundreds of thousands of squats. if the tripple or double the state will have taken a big blow.


You will never have enough people who are willing to just withdraw from the system.
to fight the state is to withdraw from the state.


I am sure as hell not willing. I like my microwave and my television thank you very much.

whose the reactionary now. who makes those products your using by any chance? workers. but you want to liberate the workers. your keeping them in wage slavery.


The thought is reactionary in nature
sorry for the thought crime overlord. also, if everyone withdraws from the system, who will the state control?

[Organic Revolution]

Imagine if everyone in our country was to turn off the television, drop out of school and work, stop driving cars, tear down their houses and live for the survival of themselves and their families.

sorry but that is very ignorant. we need to band together for the well being of everyone.

[RASH chris]

do you work? have you ever worked, have you ever fought the cops, have you ever fought the army.. these are people... not government.

Yes, to every one of those fucking questions. I work everyday, for $5.50 an hour. I have fought the cops, I have fought the army. Obviously they are people, but the point is that those people are the defense of the state, if the police and the army did not exist then the people would have dismantled the state long ago.


how do you figure? there are hundreds of thousands of squats. if the tripple or double the state will have taken a big blow.

I don't know about the squat scene where you are from, but most of the squats I know have become crack houses. Squatting used to be a social movement, now (in the majority of places I've seen) it is just a place to live. Though I am not denying squatting as a legitimate revolutionary tactic.


to fight the state is to withdraw from the state.

But how is it realistic to believe that enough people will ever want to do that?


whose the reactionary now. who makes those products your using by any chance? workers. but you want to liberate the workers. your keeping them in wage slavery.

Are you a primitivist?


sorry for the thought crime overlord. also, if everyone withdraws from the system, who will the state control?

I hate to break it to you pal, but the state doesn't give two shits if a couple of crusties hop trains and hitch across the country instead of becoming congressmen.


do you care about liberating people Anarchopunk? then wheres your rifle?

In my room next to it's magazines. Where is yours?


You guys don't seem to acknowledge that the state and capitalism are real things. Its not just a fucking dream, its real life. When the police hose us down with tear gas am I just imagining that? When my paycheck is to small for me to eat lunch all week but my boss can buy new clothes every day am I just imagining that?

These systems are real, and we have to tear them down, not just walk away from them.

[Organic Revolution]

But how is it realistic to believe that enough people will ever want to do that?

not sure.. just a thought.


Are you a primitivist?
nope.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

You can get a REVOLUTION™ for $39,9 at Wal-Mart.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

you need to have theory to have practice.

Who are you? What kind of theory? When are you going to convert "theory" into practice?

[RASH chris]

not sure.. just a thought.

Ok, a thought, with no historical basis to back it up. Therefore, I consider revolution to be the only possible way, because, in the past, the masses have risen up and torn down the old structure. So why work at something which has shown no evidence of happening?


nope.

Then why did you attack my desire to live a life with technologically advanced items? I see no reason why I should walk out of my nice comfortable house and quit the system for something that might not work. It seems for more realistic to me to stay in the system, organize with my fellow workers and proletarians to create the new world.

[OleMarxco]

The most important is -NOT- a theory; But rather, a train of thought and a few idea's. Thes innovation is the revolution's weapon. We're not to be bound by conventional limit's! Renember; Trust in humanity's instinct to, if convinced so, to do whatever set's them to. Even fighting face to face with another social order. Have faith, and good luck ;)

[revind]

Start now with what tools you have and along the way you will find better tools

[Decolonize The Left]

Hey guys I've got a lot to say, but I gotta run to help my pops with some work, so I'll get back to all this later.

-- August

[Decolonize The Left]

Alright, I'll say a few things first which will give my comments some serious context. It's 12:45 west coast time, and I have to wake up early and fly back to college tomorrow so I will keep this short, and re-read all your comments with more thought later at school. Do to this I won't be able to check this forum for several days, so your comments will go unanswered until I can get access to the internet again.
---
Firstly, I'd like to say I understood much of what you were speaking about, although I consider it more to be an address to each and everyone who reads it (or as you might say, all of us who are in effect each other), rather than "how to start a revolution". The reason why I say this is because I understand that you believe a revolution can occur if everyone thought the way you described, or at least attempted to, and you are correct. Since revolution = transformation, a transformation would indeed take place, and we would see our revolution for an anarachist society (which is in effect what you are saying should result).

But, here is where I have trouble. Let's think about everyone who will read your posts, and then everyone who actually will take the time to analyze them and think about them, absorb them if you will. If these people take your words and thoughts with them, and share them with their close friends and loved ones, some of them will take that in, and analyze it, and understand it. And so on and so forth. Somewhat of a chain reaction. This is good. But I have a bigger problem. Whenever I think about how I could easily sustain myself and my loved ones, I think about everyone else. I think about the poor in Africa, I think about the oppressed in Latin America and South America, I think about their pain, and it becomes my pain, and I have to stop it. Not because it is pain, I can take pain, lots of it I have a high pain-threshold, but it is because it is unecessary and unjust. These people did not have an option, they were born into pain. Horrible pain of being denied freedom and liberty and opportunity. This pain is wrong and can be stopped, it can be stopped.
But it cannot be stopped through your method. This method can only help those stated above in the chain reaction. It cannot help those thousands of miles away in real pain, it cannot help them. They need physical help, now.

And this is why I after I finish college with whatever degree I emerge with, I will travel to them to provide my life as help. Because when you think about it, what is your life? To you it is everything. Think about when you stubbed your toe, it hurt, and you were in pain, possibly angry. Think about when you broke a bone, your arm for example. It hurt a lot, horrible pain. But it healed. And it only lasted a week or two of pain, then recovery, which was hard, but not unbearable.
Well what about if you live in fear of death everyday. You barely have enough food and water to survive, and you cannot do what you wish. This pain is so much stronger than that of your broken arm, and it lasts a life time.
So what is one life? It is but one life. That's it. What about millions of lives? Lives lived in pain the whole time? If I could give my life to make those millions live a life of happiness, I'd lay down in death's arms. And so this is what I will attempt to do. Rather than stay here in the safe US-of-A, I will travel and possibly die trying to help them. How I will help them depends on how I can best serve their interests. In the end it will certainly involve me trying to help them take control of their lives and their land, and their country.

So you can see my problem with your philosophy. It works for you who does not wish to take on responsability (as you stated). But for me it doesn't work. Responsability doesn't scare me, it's living a life where I didn't do what I could to help those who couldn't help themselves that scares me.

Example:
You are walking down the side of the road when you hear an animal screaming in pain. Do you walk towards the sound out of curiousity? Yes. And there you see a young dog with it's leg caught in a trap. You can easily open the trap and free the dog, do you open it? I would, as I imagine most people would. Most people would open that trap because they were not put in danger by doing so. It hurts them none to help that dog.

But what about when that dog is native indian tribes of Guatemala, and they are being oppressed by the military and government. They are trapped as well. Do you help them? Do you go to them and try and free them from their trap? No, you sit here and give money to some organization that sends them food, if that...
So how is this different? It is different because traveling to Gautemala and helping those people involves you giving up the things you like, and putting your life in danger.
But how is your life better than theirs? How are you "more valuable" than them? How is your time worth more to anyone than theirs?
It isn't. You are equal. So why not help them? Why not help them all?

-- August

[Paradox]

Skipped everything else in your post after reading this:


Sure capatalism might not appear as though it still exists, but then where does it go? There is no there, no place where things which "don't exist" go when they are busy "not existing", the nature of such a place is evident in the words we use to describe it: it Doesn't Exist.
All things which have ever, do, or will ever exist are here and now. Ask to see something and if you look for it here and now, you will find evidence of it here and now.
The fact that capatalism will someday exist in the past proves my point. It exists now, it exists in the future, and it exists in the past all at once, even if it is "destroyed". It still exists as it is destroyed because it exists in the past, you see? Everything which did exist still does, in the past, but the past is now.
THINK ABOUT IT, I BEG YOU.

:rolleyes: Really? Does this matter? So it exists in the past, so what? Fine it "exists." This is nothing more than philosophy. Nothing against philosophy, but this is of no use. Who cares is there's no "there?" The system will not be capitalism, it will be "transformed (things "aren't destroyed")" into Communism. And so capitalism will only "exist" in the past. FINE. LEAVE IT AT THAT. It's all in your mind, remember your "the state only exists in your mind" arguement?

I may read the rest of your last posts later (right now I don't have the time), but this part just annoyed me. Nothing personal, it just seemed incredibly unproductive to me.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If you wish not to know what it is I am busy explaining in this section of this website, you are free to stop reading any time you wish.

And at the same time, I do not want my favourite website to be clogged up with volume upon volume of your pointless crap.


Do you go to great lengths to be so obvious or does it come naturally to you?

I just like to make my point across, so that I will not have to repeat myself.


Really I am truely deeply interested in the nature of your existence, your reaction to that question will be of much use to me.

My existance has no 'nature', it just is.


"Fuck that"
The ego objects.

Yes, because I find it pointless to show reason to the unreasonable.


"I'll slit the scumbag's throat"
It is easier to kill a man when you have a lable for him which you yourself would take offense to.

What is the point of this psychological analysis?


It is easier to kill a man, to slit his throat, when you allow yourself to give him a name which allows you to forget he is a man.

Yes, because to all intents and pruposes someone who threatens me or those dear to me have stopped being human and have become wild animals that need to be put down.


He "deserves" your "utter contempt"?

If I threatened to brutally rape you then torture you to death, would you not feel the same? Would you not want to make sure that it does not happen?


So because he has threatened you, he is somehow below you?

Yes, because the odds are his threat is a statement of intent.


And are you below him for threatening his life in respose?

No, because of this odd little concept called SELF DEFENCE. If I do not defend myself my personal well-being and quite possibly my life is at serious risk.


You cannot say whether or not you regret doing something until you have already done it.

Why should I regret defending myself from a killer/torturer? When someone threatens somebody else's life, that someone forfeits their own life whether the victim wants to or not - others might kill the would-be killer, the killer might accidently kill himself, etc.
When you set out to kill someone, whether pro-actively or in self-defence, you accept the possibility that the other person might kill you.


My point is that you be conscious while you kill.

That's funny because blind, animal rage is more useful when you're cornered - it gets the adrenaline going, which does various things to tip the battle in your favour while remaining calm and collected releases less adrenaline giving you less of an advantage.

If this sort of situation ever happens to you, and I really hope it doesn't, then try remaining calm and reasonable when your killer is banging on your door, looking with his hate-filled eyes into your own, or literally breathing down your neck

Feeling that same hate and fear is totally natural and nothing to be ashamed of or repressed.

----------------


This shouldn't be so shocking. Have you ever heard Metal, or do you simply listen to it?
Judging from the quote you must at least listen to it as you seem to be uneffected by the acusation made of hip hop.

Well, some representative example would be nice - lyrics from popular Metal bands like Black Sabbath, Pantera, and Sepultura for example.
Most Metal I've heard (And apologies to more ardent Metal fans if you feel I'm not telling it as it is) is about death, destruction, dehumanisation, pain, anger, and world-weariness, none of which is gender-specific. Musicians are of both sexes.
Fans of both genders wear jewellery, tattoos, and dark clothing.
Nothing I've seen at all about the Metal genre suggests any sort of role for women.

Hip-Hop, at least the appearence MTV likes to give, has male 'niggaz' and female 'hos'. I cannot think of any Metal equivalent.


He is up front singing about her as she is shaking her booty behind him.

She is an object, a prize to be won, territory to be conquored and forced into doing what is wanted.
Or coerced into doing what is wanted. Or hypnotized into giving up what is wanted.

Its all about pussy, and she is a slut.

He wants it, she's got it.

None of which happens in Metal to my knowledge - relationships, when touched upon in Metal, tend to focus on the darker, less satisfying side - see lyrics from bands like My Dying Bride for an example.


Even if you have your own, seperate philosophy, that philosophy is still effected by the music you listen to, like, or dislike, because the music, your opinion of the music, and your life philosophy exist in perfect relation to each other and in doing so are connected even if you don't consider them so.

Okay Freud, I listen to Drum & Bass (http://www.di.fm/wma/drumandbass_low.asx), Hardcore Dance (http://www.di.fm/wma/hardcore_low.asx), and Fear Factory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear+Factory) (Seriously)

Make of that what you will.


So if you hate women (for example) and you listen to the type of metal which promotes to killing, raping, and torchure of women, then your hatred of women is reenforced everytime you hear those lyrics and those sounds.

I'd like some examples of metal lyrics featuring the torture, rape and killing of women, and presents it as something desireable.


Some revolutionary you're turning out to be.

More revolutionary than you, I promote a change in the status quo, and it seems it doesn't matter to you.

[Gnosis]

If you wish not to know what it is I am busy explaining in this section of this website, you are free to stop reading any time you wish.


And at the same time, I do not want my favourite website to be clogged up with volume upon volume of your pointless crap.

You call it pointless crap because you see no point in it.
That is a fault of your own and should be dealt with accordingly.
You give these words meaning, you bring them where they go.
If this is pointless crap then its because you are pointless crap.


My existance has no 'nature', it just is.

The fact that you exist is the nature of your existence.
You are because it is in your nature to be.


What is the point of this psychological analysis?

You were helping prove my point by arguing with me, and I felt an analysis was in order.

My point was that by becoming a new kind of killer, you are becoming a new kind of person.
Killing out of percieved necessity and doing it while in love with the part of you which exists inside of that person you are killing, and keeeping in mind who you are killing and their relationship with yourself will keep you focused and better able to cope with the killing process. (theoretically)

Also, my point was, if a society is formed on the ground where another once stood, and that past society was killed by the new society, imagine the philosophy and the culture of the new society if they went about their "revolution" with love in their hearts the entire time, even while killing their enemy.

I thought it was a revolutionary thought.

To let go of the animal within you, to let go of the old ways of putting your enemy in a seperate catagory than yourself, to realize that your enemy IS yourself, and to kill him out of love for that self.
Being a concious killer.
Not easily provoked.
Always ready because there is no need to psych yourself up or put yourself in a place or your enemy in a place.
Wise and true to that honest wisdom.



Yes, because to all intents and pruposes someone who threatens me or those dear to me have stopped being human and have become wild animals that need to be put down.

We are all wild animals, we've allowed ourselves to be domesticated because it works for the survival of the whole (even though it is begining to work against us).
You are no more a man than he is.
This view is not necessary, possibly even counter productive, and it was my point to show you that and to show you how things can be different.


If I threatened to brutally rape you then torture you to death, would you not feel the same? Would you not want to make sure that it does not happen?

I would not feel the same contempt you might feel.
I would feel sorry for you as I understand where you are coming from and that you are only playing a hand you have been dealt, it is not your fault you want to rape me, you are learning a lesson and threatening me is a part of it.
I would love you regardless of anything you thought about doing to me or tried to do to me.
I love you now even as you are on the other side of the internet reminding me that you do not understand me.
But just because I love something does not mean I would not kill it.
I would view killing you as a symbolic turning point in my life as I have never killed before.
I would kill you, I would kill myself, I would kill my husband, I love everything but I would kill everything.
I would still love you even if you didn't try to hurt me, thus is my nature as a being.

Why? How can I say such things? Do you believe me?

I am being honest.
I have no attachments to anything but love, I try to do everything I do out of love and in love, why should killing be any different?


And are you below him for threatening his life in respose?


No, because of this odd little concept called SELF DEFENCE. If I do not defend myself my personal well-being and quite possibly my life is at serious risk

So since you were defending yourself, you are not below him?
But you are not equal to him.
Love is an equalizer.
When you love something, it is not below you and you are not above it.
Healthy love puts you and the object of your love on an equal ground.
I say you should kill him and defend yourself and do it well, but if you want revolution, than be revolution, be in love with him and his failed attempt to harm you as you kill him.
Kill him with passion, using science and love-wisdom, be more than just an animal gone blind and full of hate-rage.

There are many reasons why someone would regret killing, I'm sure. But as I have no experience in the matter, i have no more to offer you.

What I've said about music I don't feel like wasting more time on explaining.
If you want to witness what I was talking about, and that is a reenforcement of gender roles, both male and female, then listen to music and judge for yourself.


Fans of both genders wear jewellery, tattoos, and dark clothing.


death, destruction, dehumanisation, pain, anger, and world-weariness


More revolutionary than you, I promote a change in the status quo, and it seems it doesn't matter to you.

How exactly do you go about promoting change in the status quo?

What do you do?

What do you say?

What do you think?

Who do you attempt to change exactly?

What do you see as the "status quo"?

What does the "status quo" mean to you?

How can you consider one less revolutionary than another?

Do you not view us as equal?

What is your status quo changing philosophy and how do you go about applying that philosophy to every day life?

In what ways are you different than your enemy?

[Admin note: Please make sure that you edit your posts properly. You had made a mistake with the "quote" option which meant your quotes were all over the place - I've corrected it now :)]

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 04:23 PM
You are because it is in your nature to be.
Why is it?

By saying that, you're implying that there is a preconcieved "you" which defines what your nature is while you exist? Where did this preconcieved "you" come from? How can something be my nature if it wasn't preconcieved?

This also implies that I have to always be this "nature"?

[Sa'd al-Bari]

In regards to the thread starting post, I must respectfully disagree with most of your points.

I agree with your first point; that a revolution needs to involve the masses. However, I disagree with the rest of your post. You suppose, as I understand it, that if we all got outside and started protesting, rioting, etc. that the masses of workers would suddenly spring up and join us. Not true. The masses will support Communists because the Communists fight for the interests of the working class. However, this is a long process that involves the disillusionment of the masses with the bourgeois politicians and the realization that the Communists fight for the interests of the working class. This means that we must pass out propaganda, conduct agitation, organize strikes, etc. so that we are truly fighting for the interests of the working class.

Now what will happen if you suddenly try to start the revolution now? You will be out fighting bourgeois forces and the masses will not support you. They will see no reason to support you since they have not come to realize that you are fighting for their interests. After this happens the well armed forces of the bourgeoisie will crush you, and probably take a very bloody reprisal. You will have also estranged the masses, since you jumped way ahead of their consciousness and thus they do not share in your goals. The sum total of these events will be a negative for the revolutionary movement.

Now regarding theory…theory does not necessarily involve checking time while you participate in endless diatribes while getting nothing done. Marxist theory is a guide to action, one that can be used to help revolutionaries fight for the working class. It helps to get things done and if it hinders things then it is not being used properly.

Is the next phase of society an inevitability? Absolutely, but it depends on the proper material conditions being developed that will lead to the smashing bourgeois control and seizure of power by the proletariat, and this can not be overlooked in favor of forcefully bringing about that phase prematurely.

[Spartacus2002]

i am definantly in on a revolution, i long for the day to see capitalism overthrown and the corperations destroyed. count me in. I think that all like minded individuals on this board should start contacting each other and perhaps work on a shared statement of beliefs anything outside of which will not be revolutionary policy. this way despite our differences we can focus on all our common goals. I also think that the revolution should be run by a council as oppossed to a single individual in order to ensure no abuses by a single person. If anyone is tired of talking they should do this the problem many people are comfortable with just talk. now is the time for action or should we just wait until our enemies have completely fucked up our world. i know people will have criticisms about this post but that is fine, the critics rarely change anything. but i am open to criticisms on methods but not on the fact that now is the time for direct action and revolution.