The value of the Criminal Justice System

[Nickademus]

Since I kinda brought this idea up under the death penalty thread i thought i'd finish my though.

the question is whether our criminal justice system (namely prison sentances and corpral punishment where it exists) is providing any value to our society (regardless of the fact that its capitalist). the major reasons for the punitary system are deterance (general and speicific) and rehabilitation. Well deterrance isn't really working. Regarding general deterrance, the crime rates in north america just keep increasing not decreasing. they don't even stay at a steady rate, and every year more and more people are incarcerated.

regarding specific deterrance, the recidivism rate is also increasing every year.

and nothing in the justice system really rehabilitates people. it actually makes it harder for people to live a 'normal' life after prison.

first of all we label the person as a criminal from that day forward. its not the act itself that is labelled criminal but it is the person who is given a label. and as we all know it is very difficult to ever overcome a label.

perhaps its time to abolish our criminal justice system and start thinking about preventative measures towards crime instead of our current reactive view. we need to see why crimes are commit, and why certain people tend to commit them and we have to figure out how to prevent them and how to heal the community after the act has occurred. it is possible. it just takes patience and time.

i just had to state my opinion and was wondering what other peoples opinions of our criminal justice system are.

[canikickit]

perhaps its time to abolish our criminal justice system and start thinking about preventative measures towards crime instead of our current reactive view

Of course, but the radical fundamentalist scum bags will never let it happen.

I have seen politicians from the US advising in Ireland that (as our violent crimes are on the increase) we should not look to the west, to the US, but to the east, to the Netherlands, and Belguim There the focus is truly on rehabilitation, particularily with the drug laws and what not, where the user is treated as someone needing medical aid.

I watched a documentry recently on research into psychopathy, people are trying to understand it more, because the vast majority of people who re-offend are, in fact, pyschopathic.

[Nickademus]

Wow the overwhelming response! Thank you canikickit for being the only one that decided to express their opinion on this VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE

[redstar2000]

"Wow the overwhelming response!"

I don't mean to be critical, comrade, but do you have ANY idea of how repetitive many of the threads are on che-lives? How MANY times do you want us to post to the SAME topic?

Wouldn't it be great if people would actually LOOK through past threads to see if the topic they wanted to talk about had already been started? That perhaps the very question they were burning to raise had ALREADY been answered?

I KNOW it's so much EASIER to click on that "new topic" ikon, but wait...maybe there's already 50 posts on that subject!

PLEASE, dig a little first.

(I just did a search of che-lives for "criminal justice" -- 149 hits!)

(Edited by redstar2000 at 3:48 am on Dec. 5, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

redstar, i bet you go through all the pages of the forum before starting a new thread.

to the topic. right now, the main goal of the justice system is to keep criminals away from society by locking them up for a certain period of time, and not rehabilitating them. rehabilitation, although costly, should be the main goal, but before that, before people get into the whole "justice system", crimes need to be prevented.

crime is usually a product of a low socio-economic class. the state needs to put money into projects to raise socio-economic conditions through out the country, and by doing so, prevent the crime rate.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 10:43 pm on Dec. 4, 2002
"Wow the overwhelming response!"

I don't mean to be critical, comrade, but do you have ANY idea of how repetitive many of the threads are on che-lives? How MANY times do you want us to post to the SAME topic?

Wouldn't it be great if people would actually LOOK through past threads to see if the topic they wanted to talk about had already been started? That perhaps the very question they were burning to raise had ALREADY been answered?

I KNOW it's so much EASIER to click on that "new topic" ikon, but wait...maybe there's already 50 posts on that subject!

PLEASE, dig a little first.

(I just did a search of che-lives for "criminal justice" -- 149 hits!)

(Edited by redstar2000 at 3:48 am on Dec. 5, 2002)


i am fully aware of the repetitiveness of this discussion. HAVING SAID THAT, since the topic was last discussed there are ALOT of new members and I've brought other ideas into the discussion. so comrade, fuck off. sorry to be a ***** but hey, that's what i am.

[Valkyrie]

i really love the program where incarceratives are able to raise and train seeing-eye dogs for the blind. I think there is a lot of rehabilitation in that especially for the prisoners who have committed victim-related crimes.

[EricDHobo]

I'm hoping that was sarcastic Paris. I think the high american crime rates are do to the fear imposed upon people by the american news media

[Valkyrie]

No, as a matter of fact.. I wasn't being sarcastic. There is a program here that allows prisoners to train seeing-eye dogs.. the dogs stay right in the cells with the inmates the whole time during the training and the inmate is totally responsible for it's care and it's training. I think the only draw-back is that when the dogs are ready to leave the inmate may suffer from attachment association.




(Edited by Paris at 7:12 pm on Dec. 5, 2002)

[canikickit]

. There is a program here that allows prisoners to train seeing-eye dogs..

Wow, I saw that in Oz, but never realised it was an actuality. Very interesting.

I don't know what you are talking about, Eric. You seem to be disregarding rehabilitation? Quite insane.

[antieverything]

I don't see what issue this really brings up worth discussing further. As far as I can tell its saying that the justice system needs to be reformed but it is neccessary. No shit.

[Nickademus]

alright then antieverything. it needs to be reformed. perhaps ideas on HOW! can you not see that there needs to be some discussions. or are you one of those people that simply points out problems and never offers any solution because those people really are of little use.

[El Che]

Hmmm... I think there is something inheretly sad about the penal justice system. Degradation is sad. But thats life... In other words, its sad that some individuals embark on a self destructive path. Some are full of rage, for different reasons but usualy poverty is one of them, and they are young... Its fucked up but theres nothing you can do about it. I mean of course there are things you can do, like fighting poverty and disfunctional, abusive families but those are long term solutions that never solve the problem completly, i.e there will always be crime. So...... what do you propose we do with people on a crash course with the world? Thats the real issue as I see it...

OK, on to your arguments. The penal justice system`s main function is penalization. It`s a trade off, you did this now you get this. Deterance is an intended consequence but its not the philosophy behind the penal system. As for rehabilitation, you could say its a function of the penal system (and rightfuly so) and maybe it is for some... Maybe some people have found others in prison that helped them change their lifes, I think thats perfectly possible and commendable. However... I tend to think we rehabilitate our selves. When we are ready to let go, we let go. Different things do it for different people.

"Well deterrance isn't really working. Regarding general deterrance, the crime rates in north america just keep increasing not decreasing. they don't even stay at a steady rate, and every year more and more people are incarcerated.

regarding specific deterrance, the recidivism rate is also increasing every year."

Wel,l I dont think you can say that. I mean why should we take north america as an example? If we take the worst, in terms of crime rate, part of the US or Brazil as an example can we, confining our selves to that area, say deterance isn`t working there? Does it follow from increasing crime rates that deterance is not working at all?

The only way to assess the effect of deterance is to remove deterance and then make a comparison(estatistical estimate but good enough). Interesting from a sociologic point of view no doubt but I doubt you`ll find many communities willing to volunteer for the experiment.

"and nothing in the justice system really rehabilitates people. it actually makes it harder for people to live a 'normal' life after prison."

You`re right. But thats the thing with rehabilitation, it`s a modern addition to criminal penality. Doesn`t mean it works,just that its better to have prison with rehabilitation elements than without.

"first of all we label the person as a criminal from that day forward. its not the act itself that is labelled criminal but it is the person who is given a label. and as we all know it is very difficult to ever overcome a label."

That`s not the penal systems fault is it? Its like blaming mother nature for racism.

"perhaps its time to abolish our criminal justice system and start thinking about preventative measures towards crime instead of our current reactive view. we need to see why crimes are commit, and why certain people tend to commit them and we have to figure out how to prevent them and how to heal the community after the act has occurred. it is possible. it just takes patience and time."

I think what you´re talking about is very important part of dealing with crime. But I defend that approach in conjunction with a penal system with emphasis on the former.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

This is just a suggestion wich I made up now.

When some one is arrested for an offence
We make a psychological report that judges him
"rehabilitatable" or a "sick mind"(dont know an other word right now)

If he is rehabilitatable we should let him work with ppl or with animals.

A few weeks ago I saw a documantary about an american prison for drugoffenders. One thing that I instantly noticed was that the guards were friendly talking with the prisoners, there were not 3,4 fences just one, there were just 2 guardtowers and the whole atmosfere there was relaxt(as relaxt as you can be in a prison)

But the prisoners worked with horses and even the roughest criminals were turned into friendly ,smiling ppl who could be ur neighbour without any problems. Somehow working with animals relaxes ppl and brings respect for fellow humans back. Maybe ppl are in rough times in need of a "person" who listens and doesnt argue with them.


And the sick minds we could put them in labour camps for a few years(2 a 4 years)

But still i dont like this solution.
What to do then??
What to do with ppl who cant adjust to society and who would surtainly fall back in the "crimal invoirement"(dont know how to spell but you got the point) Should we kill them, in labour camps ,sentence a life time ,back to society.

I myself dont really see a good answer between those.

Maybe this "animaltherapy" works.


Plz give me ur opinian about this.

(Edited by CCCP at 3:48 pm on Dec. 9, 2002)