A real question for the revolution

[Decolonize The Left]

Ok, so I've been reading threads in many different sections of this forum, some with great topics, others rather pointless, but they have one thing in common, they achieve nothing. I mean, what good is a thread about Military Tactics After the Revolution, now? Not too much good at all. I mean sure, it's fun to post about, but it really doesn't accomplish anything.

And so I will begin to ask questions that will get somewhere. If this has been done before, please just say so and I will read those posts, my apologies if this happens.

First Question, and the only one for this thread so as not to confuse the answers:

What is to become of the people after the revolution? By this I mean, what kind of economy will be put in place? How will the people be organized? Anarchism, socialism, communism?

I don't think I want hundreds of personal answers, many repeating others, so perhaps it would be best if the different theories of thought organized and came to a common conclusion and then posted that.

The reason why I ask this is because I believe the revolution cannot succeed without the total unification of the left. And to achieve this we must establish a common goal for the revolution, otherwise, what good is revolting? You can't all revolt for different things...

Please exuse me if this has been asked before, but I would like these responses to be different. Not personal opinions, but the opinion of all the anarchists, all the communists, etc... This way we can look at the main differences in thought and see how we can assemble a common goal.

How should these theories of thought organize? In new threads I assume. So then if this is the case, let this be the anarchist thread. And let others form new threads with similar titles acknowledging the theory at hand.

In solidarity,
-- August

[Decolonize The Left]

Umm, I fucked up the title, if some mod can change it to:
A real question for the Revolution
with the description as:
Anarchist opinions
That would be great, I dunno if that can be done. But at least I asked, my bad.

-- August

[Seeker]

It is enough to know which side you will fight for.

For my reasoning behind this, I refer you to The Tao of Pooh (http://winnie-the-pooh.ru/online/lib/tao.html).

[Decolonize The Left]

I have read all of the link, and enjoyed it very much, as I often read Whinnie-The-Pooh as a child.
And I also think that knowing which side you will fight for is the basis of any revolution, but it will not bring the revolution into existence. I know which side I will fight for, but to simply know this is not to realize it. The revolution will be so complex that to simplify it so is to doom it to failure.

-- August

[Seeker]

I don't think I want hundreds of personal answers, many repeating others, so perhaps it would be best if the different theories of thought organized and came to a common conclusion


The revolution will be so complex that to simplify it so is to doom it to failure.


Each piece of the puzzle will have its own needs that vary over time and that require personal answers.

[Decolonize The Left]

Each piece of the puzzle will have its own needs that vary over time and that require personal answers.

Of course. But to have every person (many of whom believe the same things) post their opinions will cause cluster. If the groups of thought divide and come up with each of their conclusions, we can then compare those and make a common goal.

-- August

[Enragé]

I mean, what good is a thread about Military Tactics After the Revolution, now?

basicly cuz defending the revolution is an important part of the revolutionary process, thus we need to have some idea of how to go about it.

"In war, one is not allowed to blunder twice"

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 01:12 AM
Ok, so I've been reading threads in many different sections of this forum, some with great topics, others rather pointless, but they have one thing in common, they achieve nothing. I mean, what good is a thread about Military Tactics After the Revolution, now? Not too much good at all. I mean sure, it's fun to post about, but it really doesn't accomplish anything.

And so I will begin to ask questions that will get somewhere. If this has been done before, please just say so and I will read those posts, my apologies if this happens.

First Question, and the only one for this thread so as not to confuse the answers:

What is to become of the people after the revolution? By this I mean, what kind of economy will be put in place? How will the people be organized? Anarchism, socialism, communism?

I don't think I want hundreds of personal answers, many repeating others, so perhaps it would be best if the different theories of thought organized and came to a common conclusion and then posted that.

The reason why I ask this is because I believe the revolution cannot succeed without the total unification of the left. And to achieve this we must establish a common goal for the revolution, otherwise, what good is revolting? You can't all revolt for different things...

Please exuse me if this has been asked before, but I would like these responses to be different. Not personal opinions, but the opinion of all the anarchists, all the communists, etc... This way we can look at the main differences in thought and see how we can assemble a common goal.

How should these theories of thought organize? In new threads I assume. So then if this is the case, let this be the anarchist thread. And let others form new threads with similar titles acknowledging the theory at hand.

In solidarity,
-- August

What is to become of the people after the revolution? By this I mean, what kind of economy will be put in place? How will the people be organized? Anarchism, socialism, communism?


the people will re-build the earth, with freedom in mind. i think that a trade and barter economy will be put in place. Anarchism.

[Enragé]

think that a trade and barter economy

would that not just cause a new age of mercantilism and eventually capitalism?

[Decolonize The Left]

would that not just cause a new age of mercantilism and eventually capitalism?

Nonsense, it would have to involve the destruction of the price system, and therefore things would be traded based on value.

But since I think value is impossible to determine, things would have to be traded freely, or without hinderence, i.e. according to need.

-- August

[slim]

I think that it would be best if there was some sort of high meeting of all the world's best thinkers and philosophers, economists and the like, who meet up and write a few different ideas for the new economic structure of the country. When the best ideas are drawn up and argued and cross referenced; then the ideas should be presented before the electorate in a ballot. All adults must vote. The age for voting and the process of election will also be an issue in this council.

Once the perfect state is created and sustained then the word can spread and other corrupt states will no doubt turn on their masters and join the cause.

Obviously its not as black and white as this but its a start.

[enigma2517]

Trade and batter?

Eh I'm not all about that. Being an anarcho-communist I'd go for the gift economy. However its entirely possible that given the new degree of autonomy it would be quite possible for one commune or region to be complete commies while another region might try mutalism or something slightly more market oriented.

There isn't going to be one policy that shapes the world, not one that we can predict or dictate at least. Millions of people all around the world will shake off the chains of wage slavery and then begin participating in directly democractic decision making within their communites and federations. Thousands of ideas at a grassroots level will be enacted. For the quesiton of production and distribution people everywhere will come up with a plethora of different solutions. Self-determinatin will take its course.

However, some systems will inevitably work better than others. If people are no longer under any sort of coercive hierarchy, then why wouldn't they want to adopt the system that works the best? Why not do something that will benefit you the most? So when a particular idea or set of ideas shows itself as being the most efficient the other communes would start gravitating to that idealogy.

This is simply why democratic centralism is both misleading and unnecessary. Of course we need solidarity, class struggle is all we need for that to manifest itself. But why most we be subject to top-down authority? If something is truely worthy of our time, there is no reason why we should not accept it as our own, without any coercion or leader nonsense.

[Decolonize The Left]

I do not think this should happen. This would consolidate the power of creation to a select few "intellectual elites". This would also distance the public, the people who actually made the revolution happen, from the aftermath.

The workers should be in total control of the means of production through councils, and the same goes for intellectuals, for how can you build a building with only workers and no architect? Therefore, the "brain workers" will need to be a part of all this as well, i.e. pilots, architects, etc...

-- August

[slim]

That would be better i agree.

[Enragé]

I'd go for the gift economy

i agree, anything less is not communist.

Because everyone who can work will work to his ability in a communist system, the total produce of the entire populace belongs to the entire populace, no trade or anything should be introduced, because this could lead to some gathering more wealth..and then we're back where we begun.

[Enragé]

also its just common sense; we need each other.

A factory worker cannot work without an agricultural worker, he would die of hunger.
An agricultural worker cannot work without a factory worker, he would have no machines.
Someone who builds houses cannot work without an agricultural worker, and the agricultural worker not without they builder.
The architect cannot work without the builder, and the builder not without the architect (someone has to come up with a plan to build the house).
A teacher cannot work without an agricultural worker (no food), nor without a factory worker (no pencils) nor without a builder (no school building), and vice versa (they would not know how to do what they do).

get the point?
because everyone cannot do what he does without everyone else's support, the total production of a society belongs to all! :D

[Decolonize The Left]

Very true NKoS, your post is full of merit, and so I will leave it, and address those before it.

By "gift economy" I assume you mean people work according to their gifts? (i.e. if I happen to be good at sewing, I would work in textiles, etc...) Fine, but not completely true. If someone is gifted at carpentry, but they don't enjoy being a carpenter, they should not have to be one.

The revolution should result in an anarcho-communist system, where people are free to choose their profession according to their wishes. And like NKoS said, everyone will own everything, as they are so tightly intertwined.

-- August

[slim]

But that could result into everyone wanting to be in one proffession. I dont know many people who are happy to clean public toilets for a living, especially when there would be no financial incentive in communism.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 04:06 PM
Very true NKoS, your post is full of merit, and so I will leave it, and address those before it.

By "gift economy" I assume you mean people work according to their gifts? (i.e. if I happen to be good at sewing, I would work in textiles, etc...) Fine, but not completely true. If someone is gifted at carpentry, but they don't enjoy being a carpenter, they should not have to be one.

The revolution should result in an anarcho-communist system, where people are free to choose their profession according to their wishes. And like NKoS said, everyone will own everything, as they are so tightly intertwined.

-- August
A gift economy is an economic system in which the prevalent mode of exchange is for goods and services to be given without explicit agreement upon a quid pro quo.

from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

[Decolonize The Left]

But that could result into everyone wanting to be in one proffession. I dont know many people who are happy to clean public toilets for a living, especially when there would be no financial incentive in communism.

True, and I thank you for posting this familiar argument. I will argue the following.

Why do people not want to clean toilets, or be street-cleaners? Because it is not well-looked upon under capitalism. And why is this? Because it doesn't pay well.

When you think about it, these people are saving millions of lives from disease, etc.. They should be hailed for their noble work. And under an anarchist society they will, as people will appreciate any work that betters their lives. Therefore there will be much incentive, in the form of brotherhood, to assume these jobs, not because they pay well, but because they are helpful to others. Just as the surgeon saves lives, so does the janitor, and they both should be treated equally for their work.

-- August

[Decolonize The Left]

Thank you NKoS, for the info.

Yes of course a gift economy is necessary, anything less wouldn't be equality and liberty...

-- August

[slim]

Perhaps the less desirable jobs under capitalism should be prioritised by propaganda; or would that make us as bad as the cappies?

[Decolonize The Left]

Perhaps the less desirable jobs under capitalism should be prioritised by propaganda; or would that make us as bad as the cappies?

I don't understand, could you elaborate or clarify?

-- August

[Enragé]

he means like, people wouldnt like to be a garbage man, so what he proposed is having shows on tv say:

"BE A GARBAGE MAN :D THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY DEPENDS ON GARBAGE MEN ;) BE ALL YOU CAN BE, BE A GARBAGE MAN :D"

but i dont thinks this would be necessary.
Things like picking up garbage can be done by rotating people(4 days a week a doctor, one day a garbage man), you dont have to learn all that much for it.
Also its just something that has to be done, and the people will see the need for it to be done.

[slim]

Good idea. The office production would also be better because apparantly if you "get out more" then you will be inspired by new ideas that will make your job more productive.

[Decolonize The Left]

Good point. I also think if the public understand the reasons for the need of the revolution, they will understand what must be done afterwards. I mean honestly, I would be a garbage man if it meant an equal, free society. Not to mention it's only a couple hours a day...

-- August

[slim]

A garbage man in Britain has quite a good job if you think about it. As August said, its a couple of hours a day. This leaves the rest of the day free to do other work. So its 26K a year at least.

Removing this monetary system could do the job a favour. You could just see it when a guy is trying to pull a girl (looking at man's unfortunate but true incentives for a partner).

"So what do you do for a living?"
After a drag of a cigar "Me? I work in advertising most of the time but my real passion is in my other job as a garbage man. Its doing society a favour and its not as bad as it used to be made out to be. Sure it smells sometimes but its well worth it."

Crude example i know lol but it could work.

[Vanguard1917]

In communist society, trade does not exist - in whatever form.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

[Decolonize The Left]

In communist society, trade does not exist - in whatever form.

Ok... but where did this come from? We were talking about jobs and incentive, not to mention that this thread is for anarchists...


"So what do you do for a living?"
After a drag of a cigar "Me? I work in advertising most of the time but my real passion is in my other job as a garbage man. Its doing society a favour and its not as bad as it used to be made out to be. Sure it smells sometimes but its well worth it."

Lol, so true. Twenty bucks says he gets laid after that line too... :D

Should follow with, "Wanna go for a ride my the truck?"

Anyways, you get the idea.

-- August

[slim]

Lol!

Good line August. Your almost as good as me :P lol.

[Vanguard1917]

QUOTE
In communist society, trade does not exist - in whatever form.



Ok... but where did this come from? We were talking about jobs and incentive, not to mention that this thread is for anarchists...

I can actually very clearly see that this thread is for anarchists: with all that freedom to trade and barter nonsense.

Socialism is not about middle class people handing out shallow "incentives" to the lazy working masses, who otherwise would never get off their arses. Socialism is the ative dictatorship of the working class. The real incentive is the revolutionary tranformation of society. In a healthy revolutionary climate, there is no common incentive greater than this.

[Vanguard1917]

Yes of course a gift economy is necessary

And who will be handing out these "gifts". With this logic, the working masses are charity-cases on the receiving end of petit-bourgeois pity.

I'll say it again: socialism is the dictatorship of the proletariat. When a class is actively ruling society, that class does not need handouts... or "gifts".

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 07:26 PM

Yes of course a gift economy is necessary

And who will be handing out these "gifts". With this logic, the working masses are charity-cases on the receiving end of petit-bourgeois pity.

I'll say it again: socialism is the dictatorship of the proletariat. When a class is actively ruling society, that class does not need handouts... or "gifts".
:huh:

NOOOOOO

gift economy is everyone gets what he or she needs!
Like i need some bread, so i get it as a gift, and when somebody needs what i make or sumthin, he gets that as a gift.

[Decolonize The Left]

Yes NKoS got the gift economy bit, the link to definition was posted earlier...

vanguard:
Of course some incentive will be the revolution, naturally people will rally around a big change. But to say that that is all that is needed is silly and simplistic. Why would people want change if they don't know the outcome of that change?

Also, where did you get this idea?

Socialism is not about middle class people handing out shallow "incentives" to the lazy working masses, who otherwise would never get off their arses.

I was talking about the incentives for everyone in an anarchist society after the revolution. I was talking about how these natural incentives to better yourself and your community would lift production above levels it has known today.
Clearly you didn't read these ideas, or you would know that it is not the middle class who imposes incentives on anyone, no one imposes anything, that's the whole point of anarchism!

-- August

[saint max]

revolutionaries are such pious folk, the revolution is not.

Aug, there is no one unifying ideology that all "The Left" or all anarchists or all communists can get behind.

It's funny, you critiqued newkindofsoilder for their ridiculous thread about 'after the rev' military forumations, yet you're all continuing to try and predict the future. A gift-economy, (or non-economy) can not function in an industrial or post-industial society--much less a workers-utopia. It is for small population density, with incredible amounts of free-time, and abundence. That is to say, it only works in anarchy, and without 'work.'

Luckily yall are too busy writing the new social order, on the internet, so we don't have to worry about you getin yer dicatatorship of the proletariat on any time soon.

anarcho-leftists, please hurry up and sell out.

cheers,
-max

[papi]

The new society will be the freedom of all people to pursue aesthetics for their own well being. Aesthetics in whatever form one chooses. Some may find it in their everyday labor. Some may find it in their family and home life, some may find it in a hobby or artistics expression. The industrial world will not disappear, but instead of us being beholden to it. It will be beholden to us. Everyone will have to pull their weight, but only as far as it is neccesary for an egalitarian society.
All forms of government are violent in nature, violent against the will of the individual. We cannot escape this. The ideal society creates the conditions for the least violence against all it's people, all those involved. Capitalism is the antithesis of this ideology. The new ideology would be created around several principals.
1. we are all beholden to each other.
2. the most selfish thing we can do is raise the position of our society as a whole. Reciprocity is an obligation, that serves my own selfish needs.
3. The advancement of the human animal creates new in roads to the aesthetic pleasure of life.
No one wants to work, but even in egalitarian village societies everyone must pull their weight.
The new ideal society exploits are potential for individual happiness as well as the potential of our species.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 05:10 PM
I dont know many people who are happy to clean public toilets for a living, especially when there would be no financial incentive in communism.
That's because most people are consumed by egotism and consumerism. The concept of doing anything for anyone else rarely ever transcends past giving a few quid to a charity. What will people really do for people they don't know?

Creating an equal society, namely communism, requires those kinds of attitudes to disappear. Communist society is a very humble society and works towards creating a system where pople "do what they can" in return for "what they need."

If their community needs them to clean toilets and they are able, regardless of whether you are trained as a doctor or as a bus driver you will be expected to contribute in that way.

What ever the community needs will have to be organised and it might mean having to do something you don't particularly like. That's the nature of solidarity and the basis of co-operation. Both the basis of an equal society.

[Decolonize The Left]

Aug, there is no one unifying ideology that all "The Left" or all anarchists or all communists can get behind.

Well thanks Saint Max, for reading my original post before running your mouth in opposition. I started this thread in order to find "one unifying ideology", I didn't claim there was one. I merely said we would be stronger as the "Left" and we could organize better if we had one. That's why I started this thread, to see what other anarchists think should come after the revolution. This way I can know what the anarchists on RL think, and it will give me a better idea of what others think.

Now if instead of being ignorant and close-minded you went and started a communist thread to discuss the same thing, we might make some progress... But that's too much for you to do, and you don't even have to get off your ass! So before you start ragging on my idea to actually do something, why not look at what you're saying: "Fuck this, it's stupid, it accomplishes nothing." Well then, since you clearly proposed an alternative, why not expand on it? Oh wait, you didn't, you just sat there and said that this sucked, then went off to doing nothing yourself. Hypocrite.


It's funny, you critiqued newkindofsoilder for their ridiculous thread about 'after the rev' military forumations, yet you're all continuing to try and predict the future.

Wrong. Again a failure of your ability to read or grasp ideas. I am not trying to predict anything, I am asking people what they would like to see if a revolution should succeed, what they think is the best solution. That is not predicting the future, it's forming the future.
Military tactics after the revolution have no basis today. This thread is an effort to bring the left together in order to advance the revolution.


A gift-economy, (or non-economy) can not function in an industrial or post-industial society--much less a workers-utopia. It is for small population density, with incredible amounts of free-time, and abundence. That is to say, it only works in anarchy, and without 'work.'


Again, I see you saying everything here is stupid and pointless, then not offering any solutions or alternatives. Therefore, for your ignorance, your whole post should be ignored as void of intelligent comment.


Luckily yall are too busy writing the new social order, on the internet, so we don't have to worry about you getin yer dicatatorship of the proletariat on any time soon.

anarcho-leftists, please hurry up and sell out.

See above.

-- August

[saint max]

This is just too ridiculous...



Aug, there is no one unifying ideology that all "The Left" or all anarchists or all communists can get behind.



Well thanks Saint Max, for reading my original post before running your mouth in opposition. I started this thread in order to find "one unifying ideology", I didn't claim there was one. I merely said we would be stronger as the "Left" and we could organize better if we had one. That's why I started this thread, to see what other anarchists think should come after the revolution. This way I can know what the anarchists on RL think, and it will give me a better idea of what others think.


And I told you, there is none. In fact, you're wrong, anarchists and antistate-communists would be weaker and more boring if there were.


Now if instead of being ignorant and close-minded you went and started a communist thread to discuss the same thing, we might make some progress... But that's too much for you to do, and you don't even have to get off your ass! So before you start ragging on my idea to actually do something, why not look at what you're saying: "Fuck this, it's stupid, it accomplishes nothing." Well then, since you clearly proposed an alternative, why not expand on it? Oh wait, you didn't, you just sat there and said that this sucked, then went off to doing nothing yourself. Hypocrite.

First of all, I don't know why you implied I should start a communist thread, I am obviously not a marxist in any sense of the word. Saint Max is marx's insult to Max Stirner (albiet, a few years late...)I am not interested in "progress," either in your metaphorical or litteral movement towards some greater-good (i.e. enlightenment prinicpals.) I don't think that creating an internet thread is "doing something," either. And by the way, "hypocrite" is someone who say's one thing and does another, someone who contradicts their moral law. I have reject morality so it's pretty hard for me to fall into this, beyond the whole 'primitivism.com' arguement, which is laughable. That word may however be more your style, considering...



It's funny, you critiqued newkindofsoilder for their ridiculous thread about 'after the rev' military forumations, yet you're all continuing to try and predict the future.

Wrong. Again a failure of your ability to read or grasp ideas. I am not trying to predict anything, I am asking people what they would like to see if a revolution should succeed, what they think is the best solution. That is not predicting the future, it's forming the future.
Military tactics after the revolution have no basis today. This thread is an effort to bring the left together in order to advance the revolution.

How is talking about how a garbage man can be revolutionary and how garbage picking up will be organized, or how anything at all will be organized in a so-called free society (that does'nt exist yet) not trying to predict the future? I mean, you're trying to assume the psychology of people you're not appart of, cuz yer obiovusly not saying "oh, i'll clean up the trash..." You're talking about the fucking propganda machine, tricking folk into nonsese, they could just dig a fucking 6 ft hole with saw dust buckets or other composters for.



A gift-economy, (or non-economy) can not function in an industrial or post-industial society--much less a workers-utopia. It is for small population density, with incredible amounts of free-time, and abundence. That is to say, it only works in anarchy, and without 'work.'

Again, I see you saying everything here is stupid and pointless, then not offering any solutions or alternatives. Therefore, for your ignorance, your whole post should be ignored as void of intelligent comment.

Perhaps you don't know much about critique or gift-economy for that matter. I am merely pointing out that what you are offering as a gift-economy, can not function and be liberatory within industrial and post-industrial society, and requires the complete destruction of civilization and rewilding of the planet. Not only that, gift economies can only function in abundant biodiversity with increadibly less population density, which would require not only a removal of civilization, but as well, a massive die off the population. This is becuase you need abundance to give and place valuelessness to something. In scarcity economies, such as capitalism and socialism, abundant life is reduced to 'resources' to improve the human condition through progress, not as priceless beautiful forms of life to live and interact with. You want self-deterimination and autonomy, the abolition of poverty...etc? fine. But it'll take more than a few kids on the internet, or workers taking over their workplaces.

It's cool for us to talk some shit; to theorize and critique and deconstruct on this shit, but we aint the architechs to a new world, we are maybe at best this worlds irreconcilable antagonisms and demolition team.

destruction is not merely a creative force too, it may be the only force we can weild and these threads are proving this point more and more. If we can't even think outside of work how are we supposed to imagine a 'free society'? as they say: "how can you speak of freedom in the shadow of a church?"

cheers,
-max

[The Feral Underclass]

What a great post!

I think i'm in love with you.

Out of interest, you're not that boy they call Wheeler are you?

[Decolonize The Left]

It's cool for us to talk some shit; to theorize and critique and deconstruct on this shit, but we aint the architechs to a new world, we are maybe at best this worlds irreconcilable antagonisms and demolition team.

destruction is not merely a creative force too, it may be the only force we can weild and these threads are proving this point more and more. If we can't even think outside of work how are we supposed to imagine a 'free society'? as they say: "how can you speak of freedom in the shadow of a church?"

Fair enough, I acknowledge your point of view. But what do you propose we do then?

-- August

[saint max]

Honestly. I'm not sure. I think a mass-movement and even perhaps the concept of 'revolution' is obsolete for anarchy. I don't think we should concern our selves with replacing The World. However, I do think, we can reconceptualize anarchy as not merely a 'life-style' as it seems to take form in the US. But rather as a projectual life, elaborating on our freedom. To say: "that is freedom, but there is more..."

I think it's useful to elaborate beyond bike-shops, infoshops, and Food Not Bombs and taking some advice from european comrades by creating a momentum of social centres to intervene in youth phenomona and other social movements. I think at the same time, it's quite useful to re-learn/rewild primitive living skills and know your bioregions. Moreover, I would suggest within all our endevours, to search for the most vulnerable parts of the nation-state we occupy's infrastructure and social movements open to anti-authoritarian ideas and strike, mercilessly.

Serriously, the only topic relevent to my freedom and liberation is why, how, and with who...and if I don't meet/know anyone off of this board in real life, it's rather trite to continue. Why should my opinons or yours for that matter, mean anything to any of us? We're aliases that talk shit on the internet; the real world is the only place where discussion can really mean anything or precede any action.

cheers,
-max

[JKP]

Originally posted by saint [email protected] 1 2005, 01:52 PM
Honestly. I'm not sure. I think a mass-movement and even perhaps the concept of 'revolution' is obsolete for anarchy. I don't think we should concern our selves with replacing The World. However, I do think, we can reconceptualize anarchy as not merely a 'life-style' as it seems to take form in the US. But rather as a projectual life, elaborating on our freedom. To say: "that is freedom, but there is more..."

I think it's useful to elaborate beyond bike-shops, infoshops, and Food Not Bombs and taking some advice from european comrades by creating a momentum of social centres to intervene in youth phenomona and other social movements. I think at the same time, it's quite useful to re-learn/rewild primitive living skills and know your bioregions. Moreover, I would suggest within all our endevours, to search for the most vulnerable parts of the nation-state we occupy's infrastructure and social movements open to anti-authoritarian ideas and strike, mercilessly.

Serriously, the only topic relevent to my freedom and liberation is why, how, and with who...and if I don't meet/know anyone off of this board in real life, it's rather trite to continue. Why should my opinons or yours for that matter, mean anything to any of us? We're aliases that talk shit on the internet; the real world is the only place where discussion can really mean anything or precede any action.

cheers,
-max
The bourgeoisie debated their ideas before they had their revolutions France.

Marx debated with the Anarchists for decades before the Paris Commune actually happened.

So while debate may not have any effect on its own, it can certainly lead to action. If anything, more people should be involved in debate, especially the working class.