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Led Zeppelin
25th August 2005, 05:51
"Leader"

Every State is a dictatorship. Every State cannot avoid having a government, made up of a small number of men, who in their turn organize themselves around one who is endowed with greater ability and greater perspicacity. So long as a State is necessary, so long as it is historically necessary to govern men, whichever the ruling class may be, the problem will arise of having leaders, of having a "leader". The fact that socialists, even ones who call themselves Marxists and revolutionaries, say they want the dictatorship of the proletariat but not the dictatorship of leaders; say they do not want command to be individualized and personalized; in other words, say they want dictatorship, but not in the form in which it is historically possible - merely reveals a whole political stance, a whole "revolutionary" theoretical formation.

In the question of proletarian dictatorship, the key problem is not the physical personification of the function of command. The key problem consists in the nature of the relations which the leaders or leader have with the party of the working class, in the relations which exist between this party and the working class. Are these purely hierarchical, of a military type, or are they of a historical and organic nature? Are the leader and the party elements of the working class, are they a part of the working class, do they represent its deepest and most vital interests and aspirations, or are they an excrescence or simply a violent superimposition? How was this party formed, how did it develop, through what process did the selection of the men who lead it take place? Why did it become the party of the working class? Did this occur by chance?

The problem becomes that of the whole historical development of the working class, which is gradually formed in struggle against the bourgeoisie, winning a few victories and suffering many defeats: the historical development, moreover, not just of the working class of a single country, but of the entire working class of the world - with its superficial differentiations, which are nevertheless so important at any single moment in time, and with its basic unity and homogeneity. The problem also becomes that of the vitality of Marxism; of whether it is or is not the most certain and profound interpretation of nature and of history; of whether it can complement the politician's inspired intuition by an infallible method, an instrument of the greatest precision for exploring the future, foreseeing mass events, leading them and hence controlling them.

The international proletariat has had, and still has, the living example of a revolutionary party exercising workingclass dictatorship. It has had, and unfortunately no longer has, the most typical and expressive living example of what a revolutionary leader is - comrade Lenin."[118]

Comrade Lenin was the initiator of a new process of development of history. But he was this, because he was also the exponent and the last, most individualized moment of a whole process of development of past history, not just of Russia but of the whole world. Did he become the leader of the Bolshevik Party by chance? Did the Bolshevik Party become the leading party of the Russian proletariat, and hence of the Russian nation, by chance? The selection process lasted thirty years; it was extremely arduous; it often assumed what appeared to be the strangest and most absurd forms. It took place, in the international field, in contact with the most advanced capitalist civilizations of central and western Europe, in the struggle of the parties and factions Which made up the Second International before the War. It continued within the minority of international socialism which remained at least partially immune from the social-patriotic contagion. It was renewed in Russia in the struggle to win the majority of the proletariat; in the struggle to understand and interpret the needs and aspirations of a numberless peasant class, scattered over an immense territory. It still continues, every day, because every day it is necessary to understand, to foresee, to take measures.

This selection process was a struggle of factions and small groups; it was also an individual struggle; it meant splits and fusions, arrest, exile, prison, assassination attempts; it meant resistance to discouragement, and to pride; it meant suffering hunger while having millions in gold available; it meant preserving the spirit of a simple worker on the throne of the Tsars; it meant not despairing even when all seemed lost, but starting again, patiently and tenaciously; it meant keeping a cool head and a smile when others lost their heads. The Russian Communist Party, with its leader Lenin, bound itself up so tightly with the entire development of its Russian proletariat, with the whole development therefore of the entire Russian nation, that it is not possible even to imagine one without the other: the proletariat as a ruling class without the Communist Party being the governing party; hence without the Central Committee of the party being the inspirer of government policy; and hence without Lenin being the leader of the State.

The very attitude of the great majority of Russian bourgeois, who used to say "our ideal too would be a republic headed by Lenin without the Communist Party", had great historical significance. It was the proof that the proletariat no longer merely exercised physical domination, but dominated spiritually as well. At bottom, in a confused way, the Russian bourgeoisie too understood that Lenin could not have become and could not have remained leader of the State without the domination of the proletariat, without the Communist Party being the government party. Its class consciousness prevented it as yet from acknowledging, beyond its physical, immediate defeat, also its ideological and historical defeat. But already the doubt was there, expressed in that typical sentiment.

Another question arises. Is it possible, today, in the period of the world revolution, for there to exist "leaders" outside the working class; for there to exist non-Marxist leaders, who are not linked closely to the class which embodies the progressive development of all mankind? In Italy we have the fascist régime, we have Benito Mussolini as fascism's leader, we have an official ideology in which the "leader" is deified, declared to be infallible, prophesied as the organizer and inspirer of a reborn Holy Roman Empire. We see printed in the newspapers, every day, scores and hundreds of telegrams of homage from the vast local tribes to the "leader". We see the photographs: the hardened mask of a face which we have already seen at socialist meetings. We know that face: we know that rolling of the eyes in their sockets, eyes which in the past sought with their ferocious movements to bring shudders to the bourgeoisie, and today seek to do the same to the proletariat. We know that fist always clenched in a threat. We know the whole mechanism, the whole paraphernalia, and we understand that it may impress and tug at the heartstrings of bourgeois school-children. It is really impressive, even when seen close to, and has an awesome effect. But "leader"?

We saw the Red Week of June 1914.[119] More than three million workers were on the streets, called out by Benito Mussolini, who for about a year since the Roccagorga massacre had been preparing them for the great day, with all the oratorical and journalistic means at the disposal of the then "leader" of the Socialist Party, of Benito Mussolini - from Scalarini's lampoon to his great trial at the Milan Assizes.[120] Three million workers were on the streets: but the "leader", Benito Mussolini, was missing. He was missing as a "leader", not as an individual; for people say that as an individual he was courageous, and defied the cordons and the muskets of the carabinieri in Milan. He was missing as a "leader", because he was not one. Because, by his own admission, within the leadership of the Socialist Party he could not even manage to get the better of the wretched intrigues of Arturo Vella or Angelica Balabanoff.

He was then, as today, the quintessential model of the Italian petty bourgeois: a rabid, ferocious mixture of all the detritus left on the national soil by the centuries of domination by foreigners and priests. He could not be the leader of the proletariat; he became the dictator of the bourgeoisie, which loves ferocious faces when it becomes Bourbon again, and which hoped to see the same terror in the working class which it itself had felt before those rolling eyes and that clenched fist raised in menace.

The dictatorship of the proletariat is expansive, not repressive. A continuous movement takes place from the base upwards, a continuous replacement through all the capillaries of society, a continuous circulation of men. The leader whom we mourn today found a decomposing society, a human dust, without order or discipline. For in the course of five years of war, production - the source of all social life - had dried up. Everything was re-ordered and reconstructed, from the factory to the government, with the instruments and under the leadership and control of the proletariat, i.e. of a class new to government and to history.

Benito Mussolini has seized governmental power and is holding onto it by means of the most violent and arbitrary repression. He has not had to organize a class, but merely the personnel of an administration. He has dismantled a few of the State's mechanisms more to see how it is done and to learn the trade than from any primary necessity. His ideas are all contained in the physical mask, the eyes rolling in their sockets, the clenched fist ever raised in menace.

Rome has seen these dusty scenarios before. It saw Romulus, it saw Augustus Caesar, and at its twilight it saw Romulus Augustulus.[121]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(notes from Antonio Gramsci "Selections from political writings (1921-1926)")

118 Lenin had died on 21 January 1924.

119 On 7 June 1914, an anti-militarist demonstration at Ancona, organized by Malatesta and Nenni (then a republican), was fired on by the police, resulting in three deaths. The PSI called a general strike, and there were insurrectionary outbreaks throughout the country. Ancona was held by the insurgents for ten days, and it took 10,000 troops to subdue it.

120 Mussolini became editor of Avanti! in December 1912, and gained immediate wide publicity with his fiery editorials on the occasion of a police massacre of agricultural labourers at Roccagorga in January 1913. (In the Prison Notebooks, Gramsci was to cite Roccagorga as the real origin of the train of events culminating in the Red Week, see QC II, pp. 10 10- 11). As a result of the Avanti! campaign, Mussolini and a number of other journalists and contributors to the paper were put on trial in Milan between 26 March and 1 April 1914; some of the braccianti who had escaped the massacre testified as defence witnesses. One of Mussolini's co-defenders was Giuseppe Scalarini, who was to continue as one of the principal contributors to Avanti! until its suppression in the mid-twenties.

121 Romulus Augustulus, last of the Western Emperors of Rome, was overthrown in A.D. 476 by the Heruli under Odoacer.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/wo...4/03/leader.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/works/1924/03/leader.htm)

Must read for utopianists!

ÑóẊîöʼn
25th August 2005, 06:12
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 25 2005, 05:09 AM

Must read for utopianists!
Yawn. Yet another screed attempting to justify Leninist despotism. I've read such things before.

"Utopian" is not an insult to me. The mere fact you do not even try to achieve an utopia ius evidence you'll settle for second best - IE, dead last.

Nothing Human Is Alien
25th August 2005, 06:31
Utopian means not based in material reality.

1. Excellent or ideal but impracticable; visionary: a utopian scheme for equalizing wealth.
2. Proposing impracticably ideal schemes.

The word comes from the book "Utopia" by Sir Tomas More

ÑóẊîöʼn
25th August 2005, 14:48
And here's me thinking it came from 1930's futurists as a name for an ideal society.

redstar2000
25th August 2005, 16:34
Originally posted by Gramsci
Every State cannot avoid having a government, made up of a small number of men, who in their turn organize themselves around one who is endowed with greater ability and greater perspicacity.

Well, let's begin with that unusual word "perspicacity" -- it means shrewdness...as in business dealings. Especially skillful in bargaining might be another way to put it.

Gramsci's "leader" is one who can, through negotiation, balance conflicting interests in such a way as to result in purposeful movement...in one direction or another.


So long as a State is necessary, so long as it is historically necessary to govern men, whichever the ruling class may be, the problem will arise of having leaders, of having a "leader".

Note the careful qualification here...there will be no Gramscian "leaders" in a communist (stateless) society.


The fact that socialists, even ones who call themselves Marxists and revolutionaries, say they want the dictatorship of the proletariat but not the dictatorship of leaders; say they do not want command to be individualized and personalized; in other words, say they want dictatorship, but not in the form in which it is historically possible - merely reveals a whole political stance, a whole "revolutionary" theoretical formation. -- emphasis added.

Here Gramsci asserts that the dictatorship of the proletariat reduces itself, by necessity, to the dictatorship of an individual "leader" or a small group of "leaders".

Ok, I see two possibilities here.

1. The phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" is historically meaningless...at best, the "leader" or "leaders" rule in the name of the proletariat.

2. Or...Gramsci is just flat out wrong.


In the question of proletarian dictatorship, the key problem is not the physical personification of the function of command. The key problem consists in the nature of the relations which the leaders or leader have with the party of the working class, in the relations which exist between this party and the working class. Are these purely hierarchical, of a military type, or are they of a historical and organic nature?

I admit I have never been a careful student of Gramsci's work -- but it's always struck me that there was a strong idealist slant to his thinking.

In real life, the leader-led relationship is fundamentally "hierarchical" and "of a military type"...however that may be costumed, perfumed, etc.

To speak of leaders and their followers as having an "organic relationship" is, I think, to be metaphysical. It implies that there is "something more" to the relationship than one guy commanding and all the rest obeying.

Whatever that "something" might be, it is clearly subjective and has no bearing on the objective material outcome...which remains one guy commanding and all the rest obeying.

Whether you obey because some thug is pointing a gun at you or you obey because you "love your Leader with all your heart"...the main thing is that you obey.


Are the leader and the party elements of the working class, are they a part of the working class, do they represent its deepest and most vital interests and aspirations, or are they an excrescence or simply a violent superimposition?

Here Gramsci is simply being a-historical.

He is evidently ignorant of the work of, for example, Rosa Luxembourg -- who pointed out back in 1911 (I believe) that a certain kind of party organization, even if it began in the former situation, would end up in the latter situation.

All Leninist parties claim that they are "a part of the working class" and "represent its deepest and most vital interests and aspirations".

That was a plausible claim in the 1920s...but was it and is it true?

In fact, it turned out, for the most part, not to be true at all.


Why did it become the party of the working class? Did this occur by chance?

Chance is actually a pretty good explanation for the rise to prominence of particular personalities in history.

For example, why did Lenin's party become the party of the Russian working class during the summer of 1917 and Roosevelt's party become the party of the American working class in 1932?

Do we give Lenin and Roosevelt (neither of whom were workers) the credit? Or were there deeper causes at work?


The problem also becomes that of the vitality of Marxism; of whether it is or is not the most certain and profound interpretation of nature and of history; of whether it can complement the politician's inspired intuition by an infallible method, an instrument of the greatest precision for exploring the future, foreseeing mass events, leading them and hence controlling them. -- emphasis added.

Somehow, I think this sort of thing would set Marx spinning in his grave with hurricane-like velocity.

It's "Marxism" as fortune-telling.

Not to mention the "inspired intuition" (known to us mere mortals as the lucky guess) of the leader.


This selection process was a struggle of factions and small groups; it was also an individual struggle; it meant splits and fusions, arrest, exile, prison, assassination attempts; it meant resistance to discouragement, and to pride; it meant suffering hunger while having millions in gold available; it meant preserving the spirit of a simple worker on the throne of the Tsars; it meant not despairing even when all seemed lost, but starting again, patiently and tenaciously; it meant keeping a cool head and a smile when others lost their heads. The Russian Communist Party, with its leader Lenin, bound itself up so tightly with the entire development of its Russian proletariat, with the whole development therefore of the entire Russian nation, that it is not possible even to imagine one without the other: the proletariat as a ruling class without the Communist Party being the governing party; hence without the Central Committee of the party being the inspirer of government policy; and hence without Lenin being the leader of the State.

Since we know (from other evidence) that Gramsci was not a cynical opportunist looking for a job when he wrote this, we can only conclude that he sincerely meant every word of it.

Which makes its hagiographic character all the more depressing.

It is, in fact, almost fascist in style...one would need only to substitute a few words to "achieve" the sort of literary panegyrics that were routinely written and published about Mussolini, Hitler, et.al.


The dictatorship of the proletariat is expansive, not repressive. A continuous movement takes place from the base upwards, a continuous replacement through all the capillaries of society, a continuous circulation of men.

Except at the top...where, curiously, the men remain the same until death achieves what the people cannot -- their final and permanent dismissal from office.


In Italy we have the fascist régime, we have Benito Mussolini as fascism's leader, we have an official ideology in which the "leader" is deified, declared to be infallible, prophesied as the organizer and inspirer of a reborn Holy Roman Empire. We see printed in the newspapers, every day, scores and hundreds of telegrams of homage from the vast local tribes to the "leader". We see the photographs: the hardened mask of a face which we have already seen at socialist meetings. We know that face: we know that rolling of the eyes in their sockets, eyes which in the past sought with their ferocious movements to bring shudders to the bourgeoisie, and today seek to do the same to the proletariat. We know that fist always clenched in a threat. We know the whole mechanism, the whole paraphernalia, and we understand that it may impress and tug at the heartstrings of bourgeois school-children. It is really impressive, even when seen close up, and has an awesome effect. But "leader"?

Well, why not? Why is Mussolini not just as "entitled" to mindless adoration as Lenin?

If your idea of politics reduces itself to flopping on your belly, what difference does it make who you worship?

Is the mindless worshiper of Lenin to be preferred to the mindless worshiper of Mussolini? On what grounds?

Neither is capable of rational thought on the object of their veneration -- though they may be quite perceptive on other matters. But one must view everything they have to say with deepest suspicion. Leader-worship is just as much a superstition as Catholicism -- and has the tendency to "leak" into everything else the worshiper might choose to "think" about.

Thus, you will not be surprised to find that I can't get very interested in Gramsci's ideas. :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

NovelGentry
25th August 2005, 18:18
http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article2.htm -- There's my Response to Gramsci

OleMarxco
25th August 2005, 18:18
I suppose, as again, you hit the hammer at the nail again, huh, Red-Star? They ain't got shit on ol'Papa Commie ;)

As for the topic itself, here's my thought's on'ris shit.
A single 'leader' is useless; There'll be so much "leader's"
after the revolution, we'll all be'rat shit, the word itself almost
fade's into obscurity for 'rit's meanin' - no-one's supposed to be
evaluated over other's! But that's kinda 'ard with'rese Leninists 'round :D

Led Zeppelin
31st August 2005, 11:39
Here Gramsci asserts that the dictatorship of the proletariat reduces itself, by necessity, to the dictatorship of an individual "leader" or a small group of "leaders".

Ok, I see two possibilities here.

1. The phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" is historically meaningless...at best, the "leader" or "leaders" rule in the name of the proletariat.

2. Or...Gramsci is just flat out wrong.


Yes, "leader" or "leaders" rule in the name of classes, it has always been like this, it will always stay like this until Communism/classless society is "achieved".


In real life, the leader-led relationship is fundamentally "hierarchical" and "of a military type"...however that may be costumed, perfumed, etc.

To speak of leaders and their followers as having an "organic relationship" is, I think, to be metaphysical. It implies that there is "something more" to the relationship than one guy commanding and all the rest obeying.

Whatever that "something" might be, it is clearly subjective and has no bearing on the objective material outcome...which remains one guy commanding and all the rest obeying.

Whether you obey because some thug is pointing a gun at you or you obey because you "love your Leader with all your heart"...the main thing is that you obey.

Leaders and masses (http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/works/1921/07/leaders_masses.htm)

Masses and leaders (http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/works/1921/10/masses_leaders.htm)


Somehow, I think this sort of thing would set Marx spinning in his grave with hurricane-like velocity.


Gramsci didn't care about "what Marx would have thought", as is seen in his The Revolution Against 'Capital' (http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/works/1917/12/rev_against_capital.htm).


Except at the top...where, curiously, the men remain the same until death achieves what the people cannot -- their final and permanent dismissal from office.


Yes, that is why I support the democratization of the party.

black
31st August 2005, 12:05
"leader" or "leaders" rule in the name of classes, it has always been like this, it will always stay like this until Communism/classless society is "achieved".

1. Leader/s can't rule in the name of anyone but themselves.
2. Communism will never be achieved through a minority-based government that doesn't represent the working people themselves. In short only the free, conscious control of the proletariat as a whole can transform society (which they are the biggest part) to one of renewal and positive change. Communism is only posssible through the rejection of political leaders.


Yes, that is why I support the democratization of the party.

demoncratisation means shit. The best efforts of authoritarians could never even come close to demos-kratis; people power.

Led Zeppelin
31st August 2005, 12:15
1. Leader/s can't rule in the name of anyone but themselves.
2. Communism will never be achieved through a minority-based government that doesn't represent the working people themselves. In short only the free, conscious control of the proletariat as a whole can transform society (which they are the biggest part) to one of renewal and positive change. Communism is only posssible through the rejection of political leaders.

"Every State is a dictatorship. Every State cannot avoid having a government, made up of a small number of men, who in their turn organize themselves around one who is endowed with greater ability and greater perspicacity. So long as a State is necessary, so long as it is historically necessary to govern men, whichever the ruling class may be, the problem will arise of having leaders, of having a "leader"."

I agree with Gramsci.


demoncratisation means shit.

No, democratization means democratization.