Would You Fight For Socialism?

[ZACKist]

I've just completed George Orwell's WONDERFUL book on the Spainsh Civil War of Franco vs Anarchists/POUMs/Communists and it left me with this burning question: Would I be as honorable to my socialist comrades as Orwell was to his Spanish comrades?

I think most definatly I would have joined the Party of Marxist Unification (POUM) in the Spanish war against the Fascists. I believe that party to have been the most honorable one of the anti-Fascist bunch -- however, the Anarchists were equally honorable, I would say.

Currently, we have the tensions between the Latin American contries (Cuba/Venezeuela/Bolivia) fight for Socialism, vs the capitalist United States. I've come to the realisization that if there were a covert and/or overt attack on such comrade nations, I would personally do my best to help in the anti-capitalist cause. I believe that what Orwell did (went to Spain to join in the effort to fight the Franco forces) is extremly noble, and I would do everything I could to get down to Ven/Cuba/Bol to help.

I highly recommend that you read this book, it's very good, and talks a great deal about the Stalinists degrading of the Trotskists.

I ask now, would any of you join in the fight for a Socialist cause?

[Kez]

I think the most honourable thing to do to help any cause at the moment is to do it in our home countries.

We have a responsibility to all workers of all countries, and therefore include the ones in our own countries, not those which are more politisized or where the revolutionary struggle is at a higher level.

Imagine what an aid we could be in Britain for example if it were a Socialist Britain, which could then send over engineers and scientists in all fields to Venezuela to improve the system over there.

To use a petit-bourgeouis phrase and adapt it, Struggle starts at home. And this is something we must take on right now, through developing our theory and putting it to work in all our countries.

[Organic Revolution]

if it is a popular struggle, i would help out. but if it is a vanguard i wouldnt.

[Kez]

What if the vanguard led a popular revolution, as is the point of having a vanguard...?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Yeah I'd fight for a socialist cause,it would give purpose to my blip of a life.

And I'd have to agree with Organic Revolution, sorry but a vanguard doen't work it just aches to be over-flowing with bureaucrats.I think the idea of a vanguard these days isn't very appealing,so,it wouldn't be popular and it wouldn't lead the revolution.


Who needs a vanguard anyways.

[Kez]

the workers revolution?

the point is the workers must hold this vanguard to account and scrutinise, otherwise we see a rise in bureaucrats.

Doesnt mean we should do away with the only organising tool for revolution...

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 05:43 PM
What if the vanguard led a popular revolution, as is the point of having a vanguard...?
you dont need a vanguard to lead a revolution

[MoscowFarewell]

I would.

[Leif]

A Socialist revolution would only turn into a communist one if it was a revolution by the masses, a vanguard would only enforce a new bureaucracy to kill the old, and thus creating as many problems as the old system, and killing many in the process.

Pardon my stupidity, but what was the name of Orwell's book about his fight against the fascists?

Until the day when we need fight no more
-Nym

[h&s]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 25 2005, 12:01 AM
Yeah I'd fight for a socialist cause,it would give purpose to my blip of a life.

And I'd have to agree with Organic Revolution, sorry but a vanguard doen't work it just aches to be over-flowing with bureaucrats.I think the idea of a vanguard these days isn't very appealing,so,it wouldn't be popular and it wouldn't lead the revolution.


Who needs a vanguard anyways.
You'd fight for socialism but reject the idea of a vanguard? :lol:

[Kez]

Originally posted by organic revolution+Aug 25 2005, 02:43 AM--> (organic revolution @ Aug 25 2005, 02:43 AM)
[email protected] 24 2005, 05:43 PM
What if the vanguard led a popular revolution, as is the point of having a vanguard...?
you dont need a vanguard to lead a revolution [/b]
Oh you mean like the failed uprising of Bolivia a few months ago which didnt have a proper vanguard and led to nothing despite being a general strike and a clear revolutionary mood?

You say your comments despite the Bolivian trade unions stating there would have been a revolution had there been a revolutionary organisation to lead (ie a vanguard)

I suggest you start a thread on Vanguard, and actually try explaining yourself comrade as a one line statement is not appropriate for something as important as this.

[bolshevik butcher]

I think that some poeple are confused. A vanguard doesnt necesseraly have to be some maoist party that is a huge hieacracy that just takes orders from the top.

[ZACKist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 05:03 AM
Pardon my stupidity, but what was the name of Orwell's book about his fight against the fascists?
No stupidity to pardon, comrade! There is no possible way to read everything out there.

The book is: Homage to Catalonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell

I agree to some extent that the fight should be done in ones own country, but ultimatly... if say Venezuela was to come under attack of US forces I believe it would be necessary for ALL availiable revolutionaries to fight the capitalist imperialists in order to win the revolution of the people.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 25 2005, 09:25 AM


You'd fight for socialism but reject the idea of a vanguard? :lol: [/quote]
I consider myself a Council-Communist and not an Anarcho-Syndicalist only because of my use of Marxist terminology, to me using the phrases "socialism,workers state and rule of the prolitariat" are more correct in their usage, instead of saying "putting anarchism into practice and experimenting with anarchist ideas."

I understand when anarchists say "anarchism can only be practiced if the state is not there". However, when I say state its because the working-class are suppressing the upper-classes;therefore you have a state. And if you have a state in this sense,you have socialism.
But,the state mechanism in my way of thinking would be different from that of a bourgeos-democracy and vanguardist-collectivism. Until the state is truly gone,meaning class society is abolished you have communism aka an anarchist society.

My argument with the anarchists is that you do have a state after the revolution because your suppressing the upper-classes,to them it may appear its only a "state" by name and if thats what they think its fine with me.

As for vanguards,you can have all the unions,peoples armies,peoples militias form a commity themselves,you don't need a vanguard.Get out of the 1900s,its 2005; technology and communications are more advanced, its easier to educate nowadays.

[Kez]

Wouldnt that mean theres more of a need of a vanguard?

Because there are so many more opportunities there are people pulling in different directions, so the movement becomes weaker and weaker, this at a time when the capitalist state is becoming stronger and stronger...

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I believe that what Orwell did (went to Spain to join in the effort to fight the Franco forces) is extremly noble, and I would do everything I could to get down to Ven/Cuba/Bol to help.

Why not try India, Colombia, Nepal? Or how about the Phillipines? There are socialist revolutions there.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I would.

Then, conidering there are plenty of opportunities, why don't you?

[Moonfire]

I would definately fight for the socialist cause. Unfortunately Im still 16, so i havent been able to do much yet.

[Kez]

Age is never a limit, it just means you got more time to read, and analyse, so when u can participate more in the movement, you know what your talking about.

Ive had more intelligent discussions with some 15 year olds than with 30 year olds who have called themselves communists for the last 10 years!

[Decolonize The Left]

Moonfire, I am also young (19) but don't think that hopping right into action is the best course. I am currently reading up on Anarchism and Communism so as to really know where I am coming from, which will in turn make my position stronger. It is also important to know what you are going up against, how it works, and where it's weaknesses are. In other words "Know your enemy".

After you are sure of your position and what needs to be done, you can make a much larger impact. Good luck.

In solidarity,
-- August

[Enragé]

I would join the EZLN in a heart beat if they called for international forces to fight off the government.

However i would not join some stalinist shit cuz its...well...not socialist/communist.

[Correa]

Where is my AK-47? Enough said... :hammer: :che:

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 01:04 AM
I would join the EZLN in a heart beat if they called for international forces to fight off the government.

However i would not join some stalinist shit cuz its...well...not socialist/communist.
Whats stoppin you from going to Venezuela or Cuba?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by guerillablack+Aug 28 2005, 04:35 AM--> (guerillablack @ Aug 28 2005, 04:35 AM)
[email protected] 26 2005, 01:04 AM
I would join the EZLN in a heart beat if they called for international forces to fight off the government.

However i would not join some stalinist shit cuz its...well...not socialist/communist.
Whats stoppin you from going to Venezuela or Cuba? [/b]
cuz

A: i dont think they need some dutch fellow who knows only basic spanish
B: i have my doubts about cuba
C: Venezuela isnt doing enough
D: B and C i would throw aside if and when for example the US would invade them, but they are not, so...

[Vanguard1917]

Wouldnt that mean theres more of a need of a vanguard?

Because there are so many more opportunities there are people pulling in different directions, so the movement becomes weaker and weaker, this at a time when the capitalist state is becoming stronger and stronger...

Very good point. The working class hasnt been as fragmented as it is today - which makes a strong leading and unifying force all the more vital.

And i dont buy the argument that a vanguard is not necessary in the 21st century because people have a far greater access to information and education. The role of the vanguard has never merely been that of an educator of the masses. The vanguard brings together the most advanced and class conscious sections of the working class in order to lead the movement against the capitalists. Indeed, the fact that workers have greater access to bourgeois information and education makes the role of the vanguard ever more necessary. Does it not?

Remember, fighting for socialism means fighting against capitalism. The only way you can do that is by a strong political organisation of revolutionaries who are prepared to stand at the forefront of the class war against the bourgeoisie and lead the rest of the working class.

[bolshevik butcher]

On the whole og and fight in another country thing, socilaists are needed everywhere, why not fight for soicalism where you are. It will jsut weaken the movement where youa re if you leave.

[Fidelbrand]

Fighting for the socialist cause, i think, it's the best of all solutions.

With dialetical and historical materialism in mind, i don't think the mass will swiftly from the capitalist pseudo-paradise to communism / anarchism with ONE step. The first steps to democratic socialism or even petty-bourgeois social democracy is one little step foward and i don't think we should heavily criticise these possibilities (saying that communism is the only solution is austere).

[Decolonize The Left]

Personally, I think if you even dare call yourself a "revolutionary", you had better be contributing to sowing the seeds for(or helping pysically) the revolution.

i.e.: If you live in the US, get your education (if your in school), and go out there and spread the truth, by whatever medium you choose.
If you speak Spanish and are educated, the revolution (and attempts) in foreign lands could use some help, travel there.

Would I fight for socialism? If I knew it was leading to communism, yes. If I thought it would end up socialist-capitalist, probably not.

But will I do what I can to bring the revolution into the people's minds, yes. And I consider that worth something fighting for.

-- August

[Donnie]

he vanguard brings together the most advanced and class conscious sections of the working class in order to lead the movement against the capitalists.
What the authoritarian vanguards fail to do in our present day society is raise consciousness among the working class, that’s why when social revolution comes the vanguard is not really prepared and so it comes up with these Leninist arguments like "The working class by itself can only attain trade-union consciousness".
However the libertarian communist organisation is out in our present day society raising consciousness among the working class communities by getting into the working class communities unlike authoritarian parties like the CPGB who sit in..as I said before there thrones of power. That’s why when the revolution comes the Libertarian communist organisation has created consciousness and so the workers can control the organisation and drive through to attain communism.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 04:06 PM
Personally, I think if you even dare call yourself a "revolutionary", you had better be contributing to sowing the seeds for(or helping pysically) the revolution.

i.e.: If you live in the US, get your education (if your in school), and go out there and spread the truth, by whatever medium you choose.
If you speak Spanish and are educated, the revolution (and attempts) in foreign lands could use some help, travel there.

Would I fight for socialism? If I knew it was leading to communism, yes. If I thought it would end up socialist-capitalist, probably not.

But will I do what I can to bring the revolution into the people's minds, yes. And I consider that worth something fighting for.

-- August
QFT, Agreed.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 08:06 PM
Personally, I think if you even dare call yourself a "revolutionary", you had better be contributing to sowing the seeds for(or helping pysically) the revolution.

i.e.: If you live in the US, get your education (if your in school), and go out there and spread the truth, by whatever medium you choose.
If you speak Spanish and are educated, the revolution (and attempts) in foreign lands could use some help, travel there.

Would I fight for socialism? If I knew it was leading to communism, yes. If I thought it would end up socialist-capitalist, probably not.

But will I do what I can to bring the revolution into the people's minds, yes. And I consider that worth something fighting for.

-- August
I completly agree comrade. That is my current strategy. I'm planting my seeds here and plan on going to Afrika to help clean up that Imperialism has caused.

If you are not about action, if you are not about fighting or dying for what you believe for, then you are not a revolutionary. Chatting and debating here is fun, but there's work to be done, remember that. To all the people saying, they are too young or some other excuse, is bullshit.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh, the msot important thing to do is to get your message out.

As for authoritatrian vanguards i disagree, the working class can organize itself way beyone trade unions. This has been shown several times before in history.

[Axel1917]

I would fight for it.

Also, a party in a popular struggle would just be the representative of the masses, for in genuine conditions (no backward isolation like the USSR), if a bureaucratic stratum tried to take power, the workers and pro-workers in the party would simply smash them.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier+Aug 28 2005, 06:54 AM--> (NewKindOfSoldier @ Aug 28 2005, 06:54 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 04:35 AM

[email protected] 26 2005, 01:04 AM
I would join the EZLN in a heart beat if they called for international forces to fight off the government.

However i would not join some stalinist shit cuz its...well...not socialist/communist.
Whats stoppin you from going to Venezuela or Cuba?
cuz

A: i dont think they need some dutch fellow who knows only basic spanish
B: i have my doubts about cuba
C: Venezuela isnt doing enough
D: B and C i would throw aside if and when for example the US would invade them, but they are not, so... [/b]
I'm sorry but those are week excuses. I don't speak any Afrikan languages but that is not stopping me from goingto Afrika. Che wasn't Afrikan neither, nor do i think did he speak the languages of the Congo but that did not stop him from pursuing his vision. Even though language is a barrier, it is not a barrier that can not be overcome.

Second, if Venezuela is not doign enough, then why not do something to change that.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 02:05 PM

And i dont buy the argument that a vanguard is not necessary in the 21st century because people have a far greater access to information and education. The role of the vanguard has never merely been that of an educator of the masses. The vanguard brings together the most advanced and class conscious sections of the working class in order to lead the movement against the capitalists. Indeed, the fact that workers have greater access to bourgeois information and education makes the role of the vanguard ever more necessary. Does it not?

First of what do you exactly mean by vanguard, a revolutionary political party, whom organizes their parliment to accomade workers; or the workers themselves forming a commity and conincidentally spear-heading the revolution ? The former is definatly a political-movement which would breed dogmatism and muzzle dissent. The latter is a social-movement,of which would gain more support, possibly gain more supporters and encompas the working-class. Conflicting views are likely to occur in this political movement, but consensus could be reached through dialectical reasoning.

There are workers movements in every country, other workers may take a while to catch on. When you go fishing, you can't expect to catch a fish immediately, because you cast your line into the water.

I think political-movements, especially in this sense patronize the workers themselves. Just because the world is over-flowing with manual labour, doesn't mean the workers are intellectually inept. Who better to understand the interests of workers than the workers themselves!

Though my avitar suggests a Socialist United States of America, I don't think revolutionary potential is its wind. But, I'll do my best to spread class-consciousness in this country. The potential is more likely in third-world countries or even other first-world countries like Spain.


Remember, fighting for socialism means fighting against capitalism. The only way you can do that is by a strong political organisation of revolutionaries who are prepared to stand at the forefront of the class war against the bourgeoisie and lead the rest of the working class.

Why can't the revolutionaries intermingle with the working-class? A central commitee can dominate the working-class, which begets alienation.

[piet11111]

my personal believe is that i will fight for communism but only in a nation where it stands a chance.

meaning europe.

personally im dutch 20 years old and very angry at the government.
im learning everything i can about marxism but i prefer redstar2000's website its easier to understand and without the dialectical bull.
the problem with our ideology's is that its lacking an obvious list of standpoints and those followers of those ideology's are talking too much about trivial things
and they do that behind closed doors.
i say that all those intelectuals get out of their chair and start teaching the masses about the basics.
go visit schools and hold lectures (without dialectics it wont be apreciated) instead of being a couch potato.
im tired of the what ifs and dont's we will have to learn it the hard way through revolution.

personally im looking for my own "spanish civil war" where i can truly make a difference and be educated by my comrades.
i am a fighter in heart and not much of a talker i loathe the poeple that dribble on about how the world ought to be after revolution.
as a general once said "no battleplan ever surfived the first encounter with the enemy" same goes for a revolution.

i will be practising my skills for creating havoc and hoard tools of revolution (though i lack the $ to get much grrr.) and i will rock the boat a little and teach my family members to revolutionise them.
and ofcourse i keep an eye out on redstars webpage kudo's to redstar2000.
i dont need to practise my shooting skills i am a natural on that hit the bullseye with a .357 revolver at 25 meters (yards if you will) first time i holded a gun in my life.
if anyone has links or tips for creating havoc please pm me and i will check them out.
also pm sites that can increase my understanding of marxism.
and the dutch fella pm me i would like to talk to you about the dutch situation and how to counter act harry potter's gangbang of the proletariat.

[workersunity]

yes definitley id fight for socialism