Freedom of speech RIP

[slim]

Hello,

You may or may not know but there is a new law coming into practice anytime soon in the UK. It is also a warning to those on this site from the UK.

Anyone who supports terrorism with words on the internet or in speeches can be deported. The definition of terrorism has not been set so i advise that everyone uses their words cautiously.

The state is strangling our freedoms one by one. It is enroaching on our everyday lives. If i am banned from this site or cannot get hold of anyone. Be ready for mid 2007.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:25 PM
Anyone who supports terrorism with words on the internet or in speeches can be deported.
Where too if we're British citizens?

[RedAnarchist]

Do you think civil liberties in the UK will be eroded as they were in post-9/11 America?

Plus, what do you think this will mean for the communist movement in the UK? The government may see the revolutionary as terroristic.

[slim]

SAC, im not sure. Perhaps the states or maybe a neutral country like Ireland. Its up to diplomats now. Perhaps they will just send people to specially built "rehab centres" like the H blocs.

xphile,

To be honest, i have been trying to warn people of these dangers since i joined this site. No one really cared then and now its finally starting to dawn on people. Arrests have already been made under the terrorism act of 2001. Communists have been arrested and their houses raided. Anarchists at Edinburugh were resisted using that piece of legislation. It is just getting worse.

Our civil liberties have already suffered and there is now nothing in the way of more being taken away. If you can be deported for standing up to them then it looks like game over... for now...

We are the generation

Slim. HRA.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:25 PM
Anyone who supports terrorism with words on the internet or in speeches can be deported. The definition of terrorism has not been set so i advise that everyone uses their words cautiously.
The problem with these proposals is the fact that the definitions of terms such as "glorifying" and "justifying" terrorism are incredibly ambiguous and set a sort of net by which the government can clamp down on those who try to understand the phenomenon of acts such as suicide bombings.

It is another method by which this country is eroding away our "freedom of speech."

[slim]

The United Kingdom i think we can all agree is no longer a democracy. It is now a police state. It will only get worse. With no verbal opposition the government are unstopable.

We must prepare for the war that will end this. We are the generation that has been given this task. No one can stop the people. Once they are motivated, the impossible will be possible.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 02:00 PM
SAC, im not sure. Perhaps the states or maybe a neutral country like Ireland.
In that case I'll see you 50 or so miles down the road.

[RedAnarchist]

What is the best response then to this erosion of civil liberties?

[slim]

We cannot stop it now. The only way is to exploit it and educate the people about the corruption of the state.

Our response will come in 2007 with revolution.

[RedAnarchist]

why 2007? Whats so special about that year?

[MiniOswald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 02:25 PM
The United Kingdom i think we can all agree is no longer a democracy. It is now a police state. It will only get worse. With no verbal opposition the government are unstopable.

We must prepare for the war that will end this. We are the generation that has been given this task. No one can stop the people. Once they are motivated, the impossible will be possible.
Police state? This is bloody england not one of the koreas......

I seriously doubt this law will ever apply to communists either, unless protestors who incite riot, the law is designed for muslims.

oh and if the people of england can be motivated, thatd be a miracle, ha i can just see the chavs storming downing street now, or maybe some yuppies tearing down buckingham palace.

[RedAnarchist]

If the government can use it agaisnt us, they will. Dont think they'll use it just for one group.

[MiniOswald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 03:00 PM
If the government can use it agaisnt us, they will. Dont think they'll use it just for one group.
The radical left seems pretty low as a threat in the governments eyes. I mean, we dont have a history of violent struggle, couple of protests, couple o race riots stuff like that, but we dont go about blowing stuff up or owt. Now after 7.7 and the failed attacks and all that hoo haa they more have it in for some muslims than us lot.

[kingbee]

i would hardly say the uk is a police state. freedom of speech eroded? possibly eroded, but i'd say that i'm happy not to be allowed to go around publicy endorsing major terrorist attacks. but i'd hardly say it has been destroyed.

do you really think that the people will mobilise due to not being allowed to endorse terrorism?

i'm afraid that people need to be realistic. there IS/WAS a terrorist threat, and therefore we have to act accordingly. yes, there is a lot more to do, but i see exactly where they are coming from with these measures.

[bolshevik butcher]

Well i think that this is dagerous. It brings to mind two famous quotes, 'I may disagree with what you say but i will defend to teh end your right to say it.'

And the one you all know that beings with first they came for the communists and so on.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

This is totally unfair against communists. I know of a lot of people here on RevLeft who spoke out against the 7/7 bombings. I don't think anyone in their right minds, communist or not, would support indescriminate killing.

[slim]

Xphile,

2007 is when i turn 18. The war will start on my birthday. It will show the international community that i am officially an adult and can be held responsible for my actions.

MiniOswald,

Whether you like it or not; terror laws have already been used against communists in the UK. Anyway, it doesnt matter whether they aim for communists or muslims, they are still citizens and should not be targetted at all for their religion. We should stand by them.

Also, no history? What about the massive anti thatcher strikes and protests of the 80s.

Another point, whether its as bad as korea or not, it is not justified and is still a crime against the people. One which we have the power and ability to fight. We are more fortunate than those in many countries but it does not mean we should accept the surrender of our freedoms.

Kingbee,

I see where the laws are coming from but the latest one is coming in coincidence with many others. They are unjust and dangerous. You are at the mercy of the state. In a country that doesnt trust Blair, can you truly say you can trust them with this power?

Clenched Fist,

Nice quote.

SAC,

Your statement isnt entirely correct. This is not totally unfair against communists.

It is a threat against all who question visibly corrupt policies of the state. A threat against democracy. Against justice, freedom and a threat against the pursuit of happiness. A crime against humanity.

We are the generation.

Slim. HRA.

[Ownthink]

Hey, it was almost certain that the UK would react to these attacks just as America reacted. Say bye bye to any of the civil liberties you have left.

I think I'll be visited by DHS or FBI or NSA sometime in the near future. It's unavoidable, especially with our "USA PATRIOT ACT". What a joke.

Anyways, this was bound to happen. Sucks, doesn't it?

This is the war of our generation. It is up to us to stop it.

[monkeydust]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed in this thread, but I thought it was interesting that you should say this:


The United Kingdom i think we can all agree is no longer a democracy. It is now a police state.

According to a recent poll, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Over 70% were in favour of more authoritarian measures at the expense of civil liberties.

[Kez]

To be fair, since when has Britain ever been a democracy?

i think its interesting in how the legislation will be applied to revolutionaries, it means we will have to more accurate in what we say, and hopefully will deter people (some honest) into going down the road of individual terrorism, which has never workeed for the revolutionary cause, hurt innocents, and isolated us from the masses.

If anything, what is more democratic than a revolution? Where the mass of people gain class consiousness and take the decision making process into their own hands :)

This gives more reason for revolutionaries to get more involved in the community, and stop being so isolated from it, drawing the wrong conclusion for methods, revolutionaries must work in all mass organisations of the people, be it in the political parties, unions and student organisations, to get people to draw revolutionary conclusions

[novemba]

Since when has any place on earth even been a true democracy?

Also, I just wanted to point out to everyone that this isn't just happening in the UK, but in the US and all over the world. I hope that more of you (reformists) will open your eyes and see that revolution is the only answer.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 06:54 PM
Since when has any place on earth even been a true democracy?

Also, I just wanted to point out to everyone that this isn't just happening in the UK, but in the US and all over the world. I hope that more of you (reformists) will open your eyes and see that revolution is the only answer.
Quoted for absolute truth.

[slim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 08:30 PM
I agree with most of the sentiments expressed in this thread, but I thought it was interesting that you should say this:


The United Kingdom i think we can all agree is no longer a democracy. It is now a police state.

According to a recent poll, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Over 70% were in favour of more authoritarian measures at the expense of civil liberties.
The people at the moment cannot be seen to be under a democratic system. It can be argued that they are brainwashed by biased media to support authoritarianism.

Remove the corrupt state. Remove the corrupt media.

Install true democracy. Install true freedoms.

May we be the generation that raises spears against this dire threat; may we be those who defy the strong and corrupt in favour of the true and weak. May we destroy the foundations of capitalism and bring about a new age of enlightenment. For the good of humanity. Rise up. Let the walls of their prisons shake to the ground.

[Commandante_Ant]

It seems to me that Bush's stupidity is infectious...Tony Blair has definitely got it now. I think its safe to say that this law is going to be our "Patriot Act" which means we have no rights, the government can check all our records without our approval etc. I've just started buying a couple of books that arent exactly praising America and Britain...does that mean i'm going to be deported? The governments a joke...we need a socialist government but i dont know of a party with enough support to get rid of the New Labour morons.

2007 is going to be a very eventful year.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 08:26 AM
It seems to me that Bush's stupidity is infectious...Tony Blair has definitely got it now. I think its safe to say that this law is going to be our "Patriot Act" which means we have no rights, the government can check all our records without our approval etc. I've just started buying a couple of books that arent exactly praising America and Britain...does that mean i'm going to be deported? The governments a joke...we need a socialist government but i dont know of a party with enough support to get rid of the New Labour morons.

2007 is going to be a very eventful year.
2007 will be very eventful, indeed.

Hope you don't get deported, heh.

I'm already being browsed by the DHS and maybe the FBI.

[Commandante_Ant]

how do you know? surely they dont send a letter saying "eh by the way in case you didnt know, we're watching your ass!!"

[Alexknucklehead]

To be honest, I don't think this will have any effect whatsoever on lefties in the UK. As someone else said, the law is designed for Muslim extremeists and lets face the facts, communists or anarchists are mostly ignored other than when it comes to large events such as the G8. I'm sure all you'll notice is a few wanker fundamentalist types leaving the country quietly before they get deported.

[slim]

The law has already been applied to leftists. Another thread has prooved it. The apparantly socialist labour party died in 97' with new labour. The tories offer no resistance. The liberal democrats are more labour than labour. The rest of the parties make up less than 10% of the seats in the house of commons. These parties range from the BNP to the respect coalition.

The illusion of democracy we once had is now gone yet the nation still retains the insulting speeches of freedom and democracy. They are white lies from the lips of men who are not the moral characters many have voted for. They are oil barons, men who share alliegence with the Bush administration, men who see constructiive opposition (democracy) as a threat to the "free" world. Men who claim the middle east to be uncivilised. Men who share no characteristics of civilised men.

They will flee with their tails tucked under away from the onslaught of light and justice. The blades of truth will carve a new name for the British people. A name that will spread across the globe and give aid to our american and african counterparts. You are not alone in this struggle. Justice will destroy the oppression that once ruled your lives.

Slim. HRA. Sil Anmchadha

[Alexknucklehead]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 10:44 AM
The law has already been applied to leftists. Another thread has prooved it. The apparantly socialist labour party died in 97' with new labour. The tories offer no resistance. The liberal democrats are more labour than labour. The rest of the parties make up less than 10% of the seats in the house of commons. These parties range from the BNP to the respect coalition.

The illusion of democracy we once had is now gone yet the nation still retains the insulting speeches of freedom and democracy. They are white lies from the lips of men who are not the moral characters many have voted for. They are oil barons, men who share alliegence with the Bush administration, men who see constructiive opposition (democracy) as a threat to the "free" world. Men who claim the middle east to be uncivilised. Men who share no characteristics of civilised men.

They will flee with their tails tucked under away from the onslaught of light and justice. The blades of truth will carve a new name for the British people. A name that will spread across the globe and give aid to our american and african counterparts. You are not alone in this struggle. Justice will destroy the oppression that once ruled your lives.

Slim. HRA. Sil Anmchadha
The BNP don't have a seat in the House of Commons, and the other 10% you speak of is made up of Plaid Cyrmu (sp?), the SNP and the Northern Irish Parties, Respect has one seat. I fail to see how this law has 'already been applied to leftists' as you say, as all you seem to have written is how New Labour took the party right eight years ago and a little soapbox speech....

[slim]

It has already been applied to leftists. This is evident in the non publicisised arrests and raids of the homes of IWW members.

[Alexknucklehead]

Could you point me in the direction of where you obtained this information please, I'd be interested to read it as I find raids on UK members of the IWW very hard to beleive. Especially since I received the IWW internal bulletin in the post today...

[slim]

Oh shiad

It was in the states.lol. Sorry false alarm.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=39023

The point is that in the UK the political system has turned to the right wing. The polls in newspapers indicate that the people are in favour of more terror laws. How do we know these polls are genuine? Theyve never asked me. They might have gone for a target audience like those who lived through the control orders of the 1940's.

Democracy has ended.

[Alexknucklehead]

Ah ok, no probs :D

I think you're being a little melodramatic though, the political system here isn't 'turning to the right' as the right as always played a large part in British political life in the last century. Just compare these new laws to Thatchers anti-union laws, she destroyed the union movement in this country and in the process lost many men their jobs. Laws like this have been flying around for years, they may be 'draconian' but they aren't anything new. These new laws will just shut a few religious nutters up, I doubt they'll have any effect on the activities of left wing activists, they aren't designed for that. As for the opinion polls, saying they aren't true is a little conspiracy theory-esque now, most people do want these new laws as they fear another terrorist attack, its as simple as that. 'Death of democracy' is over the top, this is hardly comparable to other major assaults of free speech that people have had to endure in the UK (and elsewhere) over the years.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

10/10 for paying attention slim.

[Rissen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 11:33 AM
The people at the moment cannot be seen to be under a democratic system. It can be argued that they are brainwashed by biased media to support authoritarianism.
Indeed my friend. The only way, it seems, to escape the subconcious mind-programming is to follow my philosophy and surround yourself with others who do the same. Unfortunately not everyone is able to overcome the values imposed upon them and therefore it is up to the enlightened ones to guide the masses in a suitable direction...

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:33 PM
Ah ok, no probs :D

I think you're being a little melodramatic though, the political system here isn't 'turning to the right' as the right as always played a large part in British political life in the last century. Just compare these new laws to Thatchers anti-union laws, she destroyed the union movement in this country and in the process lost many men their jobs. Laws like this have been flying around for years, they may be 'draconian' but they aren't anything new. These new laws will just shut a few religious nutters up, I doubt they'll have any effect on the activities of left wing activists, they aren't designed for that. As for the opinion polls, saying they aren't true is a little conspiracy theory-esque now, most people do want these new laws as they fear another terrorist attack, its as simple as that. 'Death of democracy' is over the top, this is hardly comparable to other major assaults of free speech that people have had to endure in the UK (and elsewhere) over the years.
These types of draconian laws and shoot to kill have been used for decades in the six counties of the Irish north. Not news.

It's true also it's more aimed at the Islamists than the left.

[slim]

The north is a different situation and the laws are different.

The fact that it may be aimed at "Islamists" does not mean we should just sit back and accept it. It will only be a matter of time before they turn on leftists. The fact is that they ARE attacking the PEOPLE. They may not be of our alliegience but they are still proletarian and victims of the bourgoise.

[Kamikaze Gangbang]

don't worry, I'm sure many of you commies from the UK will be in prison soon for supporting terrorism on the internet.

Toddle -o!

:D

[slim]

Since wen did we ever support terrorism?

By opposing the same people that people who are labelled terrorists, does that make us terrorists?

I suppose the Americans in world war two were soviet because they both fought nazi germany. :rolleyes:

[Rissen]

Actually, I would not be at all suprised to hear an accusation like that by neo-nazis...

[slim]

Lol. You have a point there.

[Kez]

well some people do support individual terrorism here, which as marxists we should oppose.

The point is, when the govt cracks down on leftwing groups, they will use these sets of laws, they'll use anything to crack down on the left, its happened in the past, and will happen again.

[kingbee]

I see where the laws are coming from but the latest one is coming in coincidence with many others. They are unjust and dangerous. You are at the mercy of the state. In a country that doesnt trust Blair, can you truly say you can trust them with this power?


at the mercy of the state? you think i am likely to get shot at, imprisoned, or investigated (ok, maybe the last one)? the de menezes shooting was an accident and a one off. i cant see it happening again, not with the press that the met have been getting recently.

maybe blair i dont trust over the iraq war, clause 4, renationalising the railways, but why would he try to trick the nation on something as severe of terrorism?

wouldnt you find a way of discrediting whoever made the laws, regardless of who it was anwyays?

[slim]

Men can be discredited yes; but in a situation where you can discredit the whole government. Where the mass of the people can discredit a democracy.

It's not right and will get worse.

[kingbee]

if i wake up in a few weeks, and we are a facist dictatorship with blair in charge, i'll apologise.

but, until then...

[slim]

The lines between freedom and fascism are vague. You cannot see a fascist state coming until its too late. Politicians dedicate their lives to debating with other MPs using lies, deceit, cover-ups and other devices to trick their opponents who are also used to this form of debating. Its not as difficult for them to trick the people who have no political experience and who are attacked with propaganda whenever they watch t.v.

The illusion of freedom is not the same as freedom itself.

Do chara,

Slim.

[kingbee]

(1) The lines between freedom and fascism are vague. (2) You cannot see a fascist state coming until its too late.

1. i've always considered facism to be the opposite of freedom. are you telling me that freedom doesn't exist? or that facism is freedom?

2. have you any experience or proof of this? when was the last time it was "too late"?


Politicians dedicate their lives to debating with other MPs using lies, deceit, cover-ups and other devices to trick their opponents who are also used to this form of debating.

strangely enough, sometimes politicans don't use dirty tricks. sometimes there are debates, clean ones at that. maybe i don't agree with either point, but there ARE some well balanced debates.


Its not as difficult for them to trick the people who have no political experience and who are attacked with propaganda whenever they watch t.v.

this is true. i was on the station the other day and some woman was complaining about the council moving in gypsies and asylum seekers into former white working class areas in cardiff. but i see this more as a media addled case, than a politics one. how often do people switch on to bbc parliament, or prime minister's question time?

yes, the illusion of freedom is quite different to freedom. personally, i believe that true freedom is almost impossible to have. as someone once said on this board, the biggest chains are those in the mind.

[slim]

Fascism is often confused by the people as freedom until it is too late. Im not sure of the most recent time this happened but it happened in Nazi Germany under the people's noses. Another is the United States of America.

Politicians use the cards they hold to their advantage at the cost of those around them. Sometimes the cost is of the people. Always to the hypocricy of their respective offices.

For example, Lord Simon of Highbury, Chairman of BP, was accused of using his company to evict peasants in Columbia and of handing photographs of protestors to the local military. His company has also given millions of pounds to the Columbian army who have killed trade unionists and protestors against the oil industry. However, he is also among the ministers responsible for implementing Britain's "ethical foreign policy".

The British government is full of such figures of hypocricy, injustice, corruption and greed.

By removing the blinding influence of the capitalist state- which will always endeavour to hide the truth- we can bring about a new society of learning. I have made a post on it somewhere. A second but greater age of enlightenment. The chains of the mind will be overcome with the capitalist system.

Do chara,

Slim. HRA.

[kingbee]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 04:39 PM





Fascism is often confused by the people as freedom until it is too late. Im not sure of the most recent time this happened but it happened in Nazi Germany under the people's noses. Another is the United States of America.

ah yes, the u.s- that famous facist dictatorship. sieg heil, holocaust, and hanging people off meat hooks.

as far as i know, hitler always wanted rid of other parties, and outlined in mein kampf what he was going to do. the german people (or 33% of it, anyway) understood this, and voted for him, as germany was going through turbulent times.


The British government is full of such figures of hypocricy, injustice, corruption and greed.

i suppose a lot of it is. but most are in the cabinet, or are new labour cronies.


By removing the blinding influence of the capitalist state- which will always endeavour to hide the truth- we can bring about a new society of learning. I have made a post on it somewhere. A second but greater age of enlightenment. The chains of the mind will be overcome with the capitalist system.

i have always thought that the capitalist superstructure will be almost impossible to overcome. overcoming the base is easy enough, but changing history, culture and people's minds is not so easy.

are you irish perchance?

[slim]

"i suppose a lot of it is. but most are in the cabinet, or are new labour cronies."

Unfortunately it is not just the MPs. There are quite a few figures in the house of Lords with positions of power and office that are corrupt but identified as legitimate by the commons because of the influence they bring. This corruption has been uncovered by reporters but the government have not acted against these corrupt officials. This, i am afraid, is just the tip of an iceberg of lies and double standards.

"i have always thought that the capitalist superstructure will be almost impossible to overcome. overcoming the base is easy enough, but changing history, culture and people's minds is not so easy.

are you irish perchance?"

I feel that the capitalist system is anti-culture so there would be no culture to remove as such. There would be a vacuum of anti culture cappie conformity that will eventually be filled with the ideals that freedom and expression bring. History cannot be changed; capitalism happened; but we can ultimately learn from mankind's mistakes. The workers will never be exploited by the corrupt again.

I am of Irish descent, yes.

Comradely,

Slim. HRA. Sil Anmachadhra.