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View Full Version : "We've Turned Sharon to the Strongest Zionist Leader"



Blasphemy
30th November 2002, 10:54
this is the full speech given by arafat's right hand, and number 2 in the palestinian authority, Abu Mazen, in the refugee camp in Gaza.

"two years passed since we started the intifada, and we have to ask ourselves: what have we achieved so far? where have we reached? what were the mistakes, and what were the accomplishments? if we even had any. and mainly, which path are we choosing?

we must not leave matters vague. we must not waste time. let us stop for a minute, and look at ourselves. i'm not asking for us to beat ourselves up, but to choose a path.

the decision of starting the intifada, as a protest for the actions taken by israel, was not a mistake. i find three reasons for it: deep frustrations from the failure of the negotiations, the expansion of the settlements and sharon's visit to the temple mount. these are the reasons that drove the palestinian people to cry out and protest - so the world will know that israel is conducting war crimes.

but we must not forget that at these days we were involved in a peace process. we started in Gaza and Jericho, and continued in the rest of the cities in the west bank. 42 percent of the west bank territories were freed. we declared a rehabilitation process. the world started sending us aid money, so we can build the palestinian homeland, with jerusalem as its capitol. we reached the final stages, that would have led to the ending of the occupation, and to a solution for the refugees problem.

what's been happening in the past two years completely destroyes everything we achieved.

the main reason is that many gave in to israel's actions, and militarised the intifada. our people began using different weapons - mortars, grandes, assault rifles, and starting firing from civilian locations. this is not a popular intifada mean to manifest the frustration of the palestinians. as you know, almost every city in the west bank was devestated, due to the actions taken by the israelis as a responce to our actions.

we say that sharon doesn't want peace, and won't bring security. that's true. if sharon would have sat in the negotiations table, and present his diplomatic doctrine, not only would we have rejected it, but also must of the israeli people. in this case, sharon's fate would have been the same as netanyahu's, who refused to give, and was kicked out by the israeli people.

we needed to reach a situation in which we would sit with sharon, and make him reveal all his cards.

after 9/11, the USA stated that they want Arafat. sharon's protested, and the US told him to shut up.

but things took a wrong turn from there. the popular front took responsibility for the assassination of [israel's minister of tourism] Rehavam Zeevi, which resulted in the siege placed on arafat, on and off, until today.

the Moktaa (the palestinian government complex), which was built during the british mandate developed since the palestinian authority was founded, and became some sort of a large village. now, unfortunately, it is completely destroyed.

during the siege on the moktaa, everybody spoke in everybody's name. instead of working, we ran to the news networkd and make contradicting statements. we should have stopped and asked ourselves: where are we going?

i see three options to how we get out of this situation: 1. we restrain ourselves, and i don't see why we won't succeed, in order to preserve what is left of our precious country. if we manage to do so, we would turn the whole world against israel, in a demand to end the occupation. 2. if we try to restrain but fail, the whole world will know that we tried. 3. if we fail because of israel, the world will kow we tried, and israel is the one to blame. in this case, the fingers will be pointed at sharon, and not at us, the things are today.

people here say that the intifada will make sharon fall, but not only he didn't fall, sharon became the strongest zionist leader since herzl. 80% percent of the israelis support him.

they said that the intifada started because of the settlments, but it only caused them to expand. we say that the settlers escaped because of terrorism, but that is simply not true. the say: we want the intifada to free jerusalem. the result: are lands, which have been freed during peaceful negotiations, were reoccupied. we only have the gaza strip, which we hope to salvage before it will be too late.

we can not place on the intifada a burden it cannot hold. we must not bet on the future of our country because of personal reasons. some of the organizations here do not was the authoriy. they want to destroy it and take its place. the result: devastation to all of us. no exceptions.

i tell you all now louldy and clearly: no more! we have sacrificed, and we have been destroyed. this is a crime that must cease. we wan't peace.

sharon will fall after a few months of negotiations because he can't give us anything. we objects to evacuation settlments. he objects to withdrawing from the west bank. his fate will be like netanyahu's.

we all remember how netanyahu refused to give, and then clinton came and said: i thank the palestinians for doing what they had to do. we came to the meeting, and netanyahu started coming up with new demands. and then clinton said: i'm leaving. and he left. and a month later we went to the USA, and clinton said: this man (netanyahu) is an obstacle to peace.

now, the wheels have turned. we are disgraced, we are being pressured to write a constitution, from a government, implement reforms and elect a prime minister. everybody want to get rid of the authority.

when we signed Oslo, no one was with us. they told us we have to consult with the arab countries, but we got parts of our lands back.

the arab summit in beirut approved the Saudi initiative, which included a solution to the refugees problem. this is one of the most successful initiatives modern history has ever know, and it is important because saudia stands behind it.

the meaning of the initiatve is: lands for peace, and full normalization. this is tempting to the israelis, who dream about normal relations in return for a full withdrawal. the result: 60% of the israelis supported the initiative.

i'm not saying we should stop the intifada, but we have to clean it of its negative elements, especially the militarization. we can have demonstrations and rallies, but i don't like the slogan: the rivers of blood. whose blood? our children's?

i said the same thing in ramallah, in a convention of the Fatah, and they were angry. i was told i "crossed the red lines", but almost every jew stands behind sharon today, because they believe he can protect them. we need to say: we want our rights, but we don't want war. when we say that, the number of israelis supporting us will rise.

we must stop the violence for our benefit. give ourselves a chance. we must make it. we don't kill out of a hobby.

what's been happening in the past two years is not the hands of fate, but our own creation. i hope we can make a change. we have a new minister of financed, with a vision, who knows what he wants. there's a new minister of the interior, who want to unite the powers in the authority.

to conclude: i'm the head of the acting body, responsible for the negotiations and the refugees. i was also responsible for the elections [in 1996]. but i'm not one of those who seek a job. that is why, i have decided to relieve myself of my authorities one by one. i want others to stand by me, and help save quickly, everything that can be saved.

Sinistra
30th November 2002, 13:40
I only have one question to Abue Mazen , why did it take the palestenians 55 years to start thinking about the UN recomandation in november 29 1947 .

redstar2000
30th November 2002, 14:20
Why did it take 55 years to start thinking about the UN recommendation of November 29, 1947?

I do not know how Abu Mazen would answer that question (he was most likely either an infant or not yet born in 1947).

Were I in his shoes for a few moments, I would probably answer something like this:

"We NEVER expected to be deprived of our country by a group of nations meeting together thousands of miles away. It NEVER occurred to us that countries we'd barely HEARD of could decide, without even asking us, that we were only entitled to half of the land our ancestors had been living in for centuries. No one had EVER told us the United Nations could do this to us...or anyone.

That the whole world could "gang up" on a tiny country and rip it apart was something entirely outside our historical experience...and that they did it to wash away their own collective guilt for the holocaust made it even more unbelievable. How did the world decide that the Palestinians should PAY for the crimes of the GERMANS?

Why isn't the "Jewish State" in BAVARIA---the cradle of the 3rd Reich? ALL of the western countries did NOTHING to save the Jews from the Nazis...but it made them feel better to give OUR country to the Jews.

We were stunned. We still are. Many of us will NEVER accept what was done to us in 1947...or since."

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Not being any kind of nationalist/patriot myself, it's probably presumptious of me to attempt to simulate one, but the above is how I think a Palestinian nationalist/patriot would respond.

And, keep in mind, Arafat's people are already widely discredited among the Palestinians as not only arrogant and corrupt, but LOSERS as well. The next, rising generation of Palestinian nationalists will likely be MUCH more fanatical and MUCH more determined.

The guilt of western ruling classes for the holocaust has been washed away in the blood of arabs and jews...and now the flow of blood has become a flood that laps on the shores of...Manhattan. It will rise higher.

Sinistra
30th November 2002, 16:50
First of all , abu mazen is in his mid 70'ies , so 55 years ago he was around 20 years old .
second , the palestenians refused the recomendation , and at the end the got nothing , because they chose war . and today they think that threw war they could seaze what they want .
third , Israel is the homeland of the jewish people , it is the land of their ancestors . dont forget that the arabs do not come from palestine , but from the arab pininsola .

Blasphemy
30th November 2002, 20:39
that's a load of bullshit, because if someone converts to judaism they allow him in israel, so the whole ancestor shit is just an excuse to discard the palestinians' right on the land.

the palestinians' have the right to live in peace just like the jews, and saying otherwise is utter racism. they have been sitting on this land for decades, and no one has the right to deprive them of their homes.

IRANeAZAD5
1st December 2002, 01:54
"that's a load of bullshit, because if someone converts to judaism they allow him in israel"

Wait so if your not jewish your not allowed in Israel?

by the way did you ever get that email i sent you about the israeli forums?

new democracy
1st December 2002, 02:10
if you are not jewish you are not allowed in israel(except arabs that were alreay there, and they don't get such a good treatment). Blasphemy, not only that converting into judaism is harder than breaking a diamond with your own bare hands, it's also says you can't immigrate to israel if you are a muslim, christian etc, even if there was no problem with the palestinian refugees legitimate right to return, it wouldn't happen, because the zionists want a jewish majority in israel.

(Edited by new democracy at 2:11 am on Dec. 1, 2002)

IRANeAZAD5
1st December 2002, 02:20
Wait so I cant go to Israel as a tourist ?

new democracy
1st December 2002, 02:33
i meant that you canit immigrate to israel without being a jew. tourists are always welcomed, but they are afraid to come because of the current situation. this is one of the reasons for the rising poverty.

IRANeAZAD5
1st December 2002, 03:02
wow Israel in poverty? I never thought that would ever happen with all the money people and the govt of us gives to Israel.

new democracy
1st December 2002, 03:05
the aid is not for the israeli people but for funding the fascist war. more than one million israelis are living under poverty today.

IRANeAZAD5
1st December 2002, 03:14
Wow

are you sure , because ive seen alot of ads to gather money for Israel.

1 million ? 0ut of a population of 5 million? are you sure?

new democracy
1st December 2002, 03:17
i am sure about it because i live in israel.

Sinistra
1st December 2002, 11:19
poor , as for a man that has less than 500 dollars for a month .
the economical situation is still compared to other countries o.k .we have the same percentage of povarty like te US ( the riches country in the world). but if we dont change our fucking economy that is getting more and more capitalist evry year , if we dont kick out "shas" from the parlament , if we dont reach a peace agreement NOW , i am afraid that the economy well be like a third world economy ... sad but true...

IRANeAZAD5
1st December 2002, 19:47
intresting

ok couple questions

is their racism in Israel?
Im not talking about the arabs but others like the persians or blacks?

When you speak of poverty in Israel is it only amoung a certain minority groups?

Knowing how the president in Israel is persian and other persians hold high positions in the govt , how well off are the rest?

and theirs a famous singer in Israel that is a female that is also persian.shes supposdly the most famous in Israel could you tellme her name?

thanks

new democracy
1st December 2002, 20:46
"is their racism in Israel?
Im not talking about the arabs but others like the persians or blacks?"

if by persians and blacks you mean jews that came from iran and africe, most of israel blacks are jews that came from ethiopia. racism? in a small scale. not that much.

"When you speak of poverty in Israel is it only amoung a certain minority groups?"

a lot of the poor are arabs and jews that came from arab countries, but you can find poor people from all kind of ethnic groups.

"Knowing how the president in Israel is persian and other persians hold high positions in the govt , how well off are the rest?"

you are talking about moshe kazav, in israel president is mainly a symbolic role. he don't hold a lot of power. most of the pesians are living in pretty good conditions.

"nd theirs a famous singer in Israel that is a female that is also persian.shes supposdly the most famous in Israel could you tellme her name?"

rita.

IRANeAZAD5
1st December 2002, 21:44
ok thanks

redstar2000
1st December 2002, 21:58
Sinistra, it is quite true that the arabs in Palestine came from the Arabian Peninsula...about 1,200 YEARS AGO! A Palestinian Arab in 1947 could, at least in principle, trace his ancestry back for dozens of generations in Palestine.

Yes, they did turn down the 1947 UN Resolution on Partition...people generally do that when they feel they've been robbed of half their country.

But that's secondary. You didn't answer my main question on behalf of the Palestinians:

WHY DO THE PALESTINIANS HAVE TO PAY FOR THE CRIMES OF THE GERMANS???

And, for that matter, the crimes of the other western ruling classes who turned blind eyes and deaf ears to the plight of the jews under the nazis???

Where is the justice here???

Sinistra
2nd December 2002, 11:24
The arabs are not paying for the crimes of the Nazis , dont forget that there was a confermation of the rights of the jewish people in palestina even 1917 (the blafour declaration ) , 22 years before the holocaust . the holocaust showed how important is a home for the jewish people .

redstar2000
2nd December 2002, 14:19
Sinistra, I did not ask why are the "Arabs" paying for the crimes of the Germans; they're not.

I asked WHY THE PALESTINIANS HAVE TO PAY FOR THE CRIMES OF THE GERMANS? Answer me, please!

Yes, I am aware of the Balfour Declaration: "The Government of England looks with favor upon the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine" or words to that effect.

So I will ask another question: BY WHAT RIGHT DOES THE GOVERNMENT OF ENGLAND HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT PALESTINE? Last time I glanced at the map, Palestine was NOT part of England. Of course, in 1922, England was "a great power" (according to them, anyway) while the Palestinians were just a bunch of small farmers and merchants who didn't own even ONE battleship, dumb shitkickers.

Yes, I don't deny it would have been very difficult for Hitler to murder the jews if they had all been living far away, either in a state of their own or in some civilized country(s) that would have protected them.

But if westerners REALLY wanted to "make up" for their disgraceful behavior during the holocaust, why did they not set aside part of THEIR OWN lands for a Jewish State? I repeat, why isn't the Jewish State in Bavaria or Austria or Poland...or, for that matter, Pennsylvania?

I don't really "blame" the Zionists...they just grabbed what history had to offer and to hell with the consequences.

But, I live in a country founded on slavery and mass murder--there is a price history exacts for that kind of crime. You live in a country stolen from its native inhabitants by force...and you are paying the price for that now.

Both our countries have right-wing governments that steadily destroy our liberties in the name of protecting us from terrorism...something THEY CANNOT ACTUALLY DO. Both our countries are far down the road towards fascism, partly for economic reasons, but mostly, I suspect, because the crimes of the past will not die...the victims of U.S. imperialism and Israeli repression keep coming back...and coming back...and coming back.

Do you think for a minute that there will be a day when they will finally stop reappearing, demanding justice?

Only if you kill them ALL.

Conghaileach
2nd December 2002, 18:38
from redstar2000:
Only if you kill them ALL.

That used to be a popular proposed solution among Israelis though I think now most of them would be happy with just ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people into Jordan.


Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but at the time of the Balfour declaration wasn't the Zionist Congress still debating where they were to have their Jewish homeland?

Sinistra
3rd December 2002, 08:21
CiaranB , i think your talking about the Uganda opsion , it wasnt mensioned as ahomeland , it was mensioned only as a momenteraly solotion to the russian Jews that at that time were terebly persecuded , like in kishenev .

Conghaileach
3rd December 2002, 19:26
Was Blugaria, or another country somewhere around there, not considered at one time or another?

Sinistra
4th December 2002, 10:01
I dont think so .