Some anti-Che claims.

[AnimalRights]

First of all, I do not much about Che at all. I'd like to point to some negative statements which have been voiced about him.

Among these claims are:

-He started the concentration camps of Cuba, in idea if not in practice.

-Defeated freedom of speech

-Encouraged Castro to give up democracy.

-Jailed dissents, including different minorities like homosexuals.

-Had thousands of liberals and democrats killed.

-Had a small boy killed (had stolen food) as an example for others.

-Within the prison of Cabana, he had several of his former (to their consequent misfortune, democratic) comrades-in-arms executed.

-Lived a life of luxury in Havanna.

-Admirer of Stalin

-Hoped for the third world war, which China & the Soviet Union was supposed to win

Unfortunately I cannot provide references.

Those sympathetic to Castro & Cuba of present may not raise an eyebrow, but those critical of them and fans of Che might hold inconsistent views?

Thanks, in advance, for all polite answers.

[Big Boss]

Comrade CompaneroDeLibertad, you have nailed the mayority of outrageous lies that the worms in Miami and the rest of bastard liars have said for almost 40 years. I agree 100% with you comrade. The sources have to investigated first before claiming anything to be true or not and that is the error of many people that I have met.



Had a small boy killed (had stolen food) as an example for others

This is one of the stupidest lies about Che that I have ever heard. It's downright lame! ;)

[Clarksist]

CompaneroDeLibertad did something, that no capitalist argument can do:

POST SOURCES!!!

In fact, Companero did such a good job, I look at Cuba a bit better now. Although, I dislike Fidel still. <_<

I&#39;ve heard that comment from Che, "is this how the proletariat live in Russia?" before. It always cracks me up. :D

[fernando]

"Killing thousands poor people is called an acceptable prize, persecuting several bourgeoise criminals is called tyranny&#33;"

<_<

[Big Boss]

The stupidest one I&#39;ve ever heard was that, "Che shot down Camilo Cienfuegos plane"(&#33;&#33;)

That&#39;s awesome&#33; :lol:


"Killing thousands poor people is called an acceptable prize, persecuting several bourgeoise criminals is called tyranny&#33;"

Did comrade Fidel said that? ;)

[fernando]

I think so...Im not sure I must have heard it before since it was stuck in my head all day long

[Big Boss]

What does it have to do with Fidel? :blink:

[fernando]

what does what have to do with Fidel?

[KC]

Are you aware that in the 60&#39;s China & the Soviet Union 1. Split and were more enemies than allies 2. Built their weapons and armies as defensive measures, not for offense.

Actually he wanted to start a "second Vietnam" in Latin America. This is the "thirs world war" that I think he is speaking of. However, I believe this was going on as the Vietnam war was? I could be wrong. This is why he went to Bolivia, though. That was supposed to be the staging ground for much of the combat between the US and Latin America. It was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb for the rest of the continent, which they expected would all turn socialist after Bolivia was won. This vision blinded them, and that is why Che died.

[Clarksist]

It was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb for the rest of the continent, which they expected would all turn socialist after Bolivia was won. This vision blinded them, and that is why Che died.


Communists have always "over-projected" the reach of leftism. Nowadays, we think Latin America will be revolted soon.

In the 60&#39;s Communists thought Latin America would be finished revolting soon.

In the early 1900&#39;s Communists thought Germany (along with the rest of Europe) would revolt soon.

It just never seems to happen how we think it will.

[KC]

Well, it probably would&#39;ve worked if Bolivia was turned.

[Big Boss]

what does what have to do with Fidel?

By that I meant the quote that you posted earlier. The one that you wre not sure where it had come from but that you heard somewhere. ;)

[fernando]

oh the quote might have been from Fidel I dont know

[Hiero]

Also remember that at the time Che voiced any sort of admiration for him alot of his crimes hadn&#39;t yet come out.

Time and time again this excuses is used although it is false. One of the major events that split the communist movement was Khrushchev&#39;s secret speach in 1956 where Khrushchev accused Stalin of crimes.

It didn&#39;t take long for the world to know the contents of the secret speach, Che would of know about the speach.

[aberos]

it is not exactly as if che was the biggest fan of the ussr as i recall. he admired stalin for awhile yes, but he broke away from then and supported sino-socialism rather than the soviets. whether or not che admired the the theories of stalin at one point or another is really inconsequential.

[KC]

Just because Che failed once doesn&#39;t mean he was &#39;blinded&#39; by anything, or that his theory should be bagged outright.



He had no support from the Bolivians. He went along with it anyways.

[Big Boss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 01:36 PM
oh the quote might have been from Fidel I dont know
:blink: :wacko:

[QbN_NazI]

THE REAL CHE GUEVARA

"Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands&#33; My nostrils dilate

while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for

the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl&#33;"

"Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his

natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is

what our soldiers must become … " Che Guevara



He was very &#39;brave&#39; when he was at la But he seemed really scared after he was

Cabaña Fortress murdering innocent captured by Bolivian soldiers

civilians, including a 14 year old child

"I am much more valuable to you alive than dead," he told his captors pleading for

his life. Unfortunately for him, the Bolivian army gave him some of his own medicine



180 DOCUMENTED VICTIMS OF CHÉ GUEVARA IN CUBA: 1957 TO 1959

From: Armando M. Lago, Ph.D., Cuba. The Human Cost of Social Revolutions, unedited

Manuscript pending publication. Information provided by the TRUTH RECOVERY ARCHIVE ON CUBA

an undertaking of the FREE SOCIETY PROJECT, INC.

The exact number of Che’s Cuban victims has not been verified, but include people he personally

executed and those put to death under his orders. Che’s biographers consistently report that he sent

thousands to the firing squad. Over 4,000 deaths are documented to have taken place in Cuba, mostly

firing squad execution, in the first three years after Fidel Castro’s takeover (1959-1962). Che Guevara

was one of the regime’s chief executioners during this period and is said to have acknowledged ordering

"several thousand" executions. All took place without affording the victims fair trials and due process of law.

The following list is not exhaustive and only includes cases for which historic reference is known. Names are

cited as reported; dates and additional details for most are available. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba

and killings in countries where he led guerrilla operations have not been tallied.

14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958):

1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #1

6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #2 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES

11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS

10 executed in Santa Clara at Che’s orders in only two days (January 1959):

1. RAMÓN ALBA 2. JOSÉ BARROSO 3. JOAQUÍN CASILLAS 4. FÉLIX CRUZ 5. ALEJANDRO GARCÍA OLAYÓN

6. HÉCTOR MIRABAL 7. J. MIRABAL 8. FÉLIX MONTANO 9. CORNELIO ROJAS 10. VILALLA

156 executed at La Cabaña Fortress prison at Che Guevara’s orders:

1. VILAU ABREU 2. HUMBERTO AGUIAR 3. GERMÁN AGUIRRE 4. PELAYO ALAYÓN 5. JOSÉ LUIS ALFARO

6. PEDRO ALFARO 7. MARIANO ALONSO 8. JOSÉ ALVARO 9. ANIELLA 10. MARIO ARES POLO

11. JOSÉ RAMÓN BACALLAO 12. CEVERINO BARRIOS 13. EUGENIO BÉCQUER 14. FRANCISCO BÉCQUER

15. RAMÓN BISCET 16. ROBERTO CALZADILLA 17. EUFEMIO CANO 18. JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO

19. ANTONIO CARRALERO 20. GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS 21. JOSÉ CASTAÑO QUEVEDO 22. RAÚL CASTAÑO

23. EUFEMIO CHALA 24. JOSÉ CHAMACE 25. JOSÉ CHAMIZO 26. RAÚL CLAUSELL 27. ÁNGEL CLAUSELL

28. DEMETRIO CLAUSELL 29. JOSÉ CLAUSELL 30. ELOY CONTRERAS 31. ALBERTO CORBO 32. EMILIO CRUZ

33. JUAN FELIPE CRUZ 34. ORESTES CRUZ 35. HUMBERTO CUEVAS 36. CUNY 37. ANTONIO DE BECHE

38. MATEO DELGADO 39. ARMANDO DELGADO 40. RAMÓN DESPAIGNE 41. JOSÉ DÍAZ CABEZAS

42. ANTONIO DUARTE 43. RAMÓN FERNÁNDEZ OJEDA 44. RUDY FERNÁNDEZ 45. FERRÁN ALFONSO

46. SALVADOR FERRERO 47. VICTOR FIGUEREDO 48. EDUARDO FORTE 49. UGARDE GALÁN

50. RAFAEL GARCÍA MUÑIZ 51. ADALBERTO GARCÍA 52. ALBERTO GARCÍA 53. JACINTO GARCÍA

54. EVELIO GASPAR 55. ARMADA GIL Y DIEZ CABEZAS 56. JOSÉ GONZÁLEZ MALAGÓN 57. EVARISTO GONZÁLEZ

58. EZEQUIEL GONZÁLEZ 59. SECUNDINO GONZÁLEZ 60. RICARDO GRAO 61. BONIFACIO GRASSO

62. RICARDO JOSÉ GRAU 63. OSCAR GUERRA 64. JULIÁN HERNÁNDEZ 65. FRANCISCO HERNÁNDEZ LEYVA

66. ANTONIO HERNÁNDEZ 67. GERARDO HERNÁNDEZ 68. OLEGARIO HERNÁNDEZ 69. SECUNDINO HERNÁNDEZ

70. JESÚS INSUA 71. ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO 72. OSMÍN JORRÍN 73. SILVINO JUNCO 74. ENRIQUE LA ROSA

75. IGNACIO LASAPARLA 76. JESÚS LAZO 77. ARIEL LIMA LAGO 78. RAÚL LÓPEZ VIDAL 79. ARMANDO MAS

80. ENERLIO MATA 81. ELPIDIO MEDEROS 82. JOSÉ MEDINAS 83. JOSÉ MESA 84. FIDEL MESQUÍA

85. JUAN MILIÁN 86. FRANCISCO MIRABAL 87. LUIS MIRABAL 88. ERNESTO MORALES 89. PEDRO MOREJÓN

90. DR. CARLOS MUIÑO, MD. 91. CÉSAR NECOLARDES ROJAS 92. VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS 93. JOSÉ NUÑEZ

94. VITERBO O&#39;RREILLY 95. FÉLIX OVIEDO 96. MANUEL PANEQUE 97. PEDRO PEDROSO 98. RAFAEL PEDROSO

99. DIEGO PÉREZ CUESTA 100. JUAN PÉREZ 101. DIEGO PÉREZ CRELA 102. JOSÉ POZO 103. EMILIO PUEBLA

104. ALFREDO PUPO 105. SECUNDINO RAMÍREZ 106. RAMÓN RAMOS 107. PABLO RAVELO 108. RUBÉN REY

109. MARIO RISQUELME 110. FERNANDO RIVERA 111. PABLO RIVERA 112. MANUEL RODRÍGUEZ

113. MARCOS RODRÍGUEZ 114. NEMESIO RODRÍGUEZ 115. PABLO RODRÍGUEZ 116. RICARDO RODRÍGUEZ

117. JOSÉ SALDARA 118. PEDRO SANTANA 119. SERGIO SIERRA 120. JUAN SILVA 121. FAUSTO SILVA

122. ELPIDIO SOLER 123. JESÚS SOSA BLANCO 124. RENATO SOSA 125. SERGIO SOSA 126. PEDRO SOTO

127. OSCAR SUÁREZ 128. RAFAEL TARRAGO 129. TEODORO TELLEZ CISNEROS 130. FRANCISCO TELLEZ

131. JOSÉ TIN 132. FRANCISCO TRAVIESO 133. LEONARDO TRUJILLO 134. TRUJILLO 135. LUPE VALDÉS BARBOSA

136. MARCELINO VALDÉS 137. ANTONIO VALENTÍN 138. MANUEL VÁZQUEZ 139. SERGIO VÁZQUEZ 140. VERDECIA

141. DÁMASO ZAYAS

*15 additional executions were reported by The New York Times (on 2/6/59, 2/8/59, 3/16/59, and 4/2/59),

but names are unknown.

TRUTH RECOVERY ARCHIVE ON CUBA an undertaking of the FREE SOCIETY PROJECT, INC

[aberos]

except he did not beg for his life...he did however say "kill me you coward. you are only killing a man."

[Karl Marx's Camel]

-He started the concentration camps of Cuba, in idea if not in practice.

n/a



-Defeated freedom of speech

There was no freedom of speech in Cuba.



-Encouraged Castro to give up democracy.

n/a. Define: "democracy"



-Jailed dissents, including different minorities like homosexuals.

n/a



-Had thousands of liberals and democrats killed.


War Criminals, rapists, traitors, torturers (sp?), Batista officals (remember these people were responsible for torturing and cutting people&#39;s toungue and eyes out). Estimates vary from a few hundred to a little over thousand. Fine by me if you want to call them "liberals and democrats".



-Had a small boy killed (had stolen food) as an example for others.

Sounds illogical and not like Che at all.


-Within the prison of Cabana, he had several of his former (to their consequent misfortune, democratic) comrades-in-arms executed.

n/a



-Lived a life of luxury in Havanna.


Completely false and outrageous. Che went ballistic when he saw Cuban officals trying to elevate themselves above the masses. I have several examples of this.



-Admirer of Stalin

True.



-Hoped for the third world war, which China & the Soviet Union was supposed to win


False. Che opposed the Soviet Union. Or at least supported China over the USSR.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

This is why he went to Bolivia, though. That was supposed to be the staging ground for much of the combat between the US and Latin America. It was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb for the rest of the continent, which they expected would all turn socialist after Bolivia was won. This vision blinded them, and that is why Che died.

According to Harry Villegas (also known as "Pombo"), this claim is false.

Bolivia is the heart of Latin America.
http://www.geo.umass.edu/climate/bolivia/images/bolivia.gif

The goal was to take over Bolivia and make the nation a giant training camp for revolutionaries in South America, thus spreading the revolution. This was also the goal in Congo.

[Free Palestine]

Where did you get this garbage? Protest Warrior? :rolleyes:


-Had thousands of liberals and democrats killed.

Nobody was executed on the sole basis of their political standpoint, rather they were executed for their crimes. "Killed" is also an accurate term to describe an execution. They all received trials, although they were pretty summary. Revolutions aren&#39;t picnics. Of course Che executed people.

And personally, I think the executions were quite necesarry; the murderers and torturers of the Batista regime would have gone on doing the same thing for counter-revolutionary groups and the CIA. Their executions, on the other hand, made others fear to do likewise. In Nicaragua, the Sandinistas abolished the death penalty and spared Somoza&#39;s murders; this may be among the reasons they faced a much larger and longer counter-revolutionary war than Cuba did

Simply imprisoning the counter-revolutionaries is insufficient; they believe the revolutionary government will soon be overthrown and that they&#39;ll be freed then. So fear of imprisonment isn&#39;t a sufficient deterrent to prevent anyone from carrying out terrorism against the revolution. The executions were really necesarry to stop the counter-revolution before it gained ground.

The people, who were executed were people, who were members of the Batista government and military. As I said, they all were given trials and all those who were executed were those found guilty of atrocities against the Cuban people. The US, UK, France and the USSR did the exact same thing with the Nuremberg trials with Nazi war criminals after World War II.

[Big Boss]

THE REAL CHE GUEVARA

"Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands&#33; My nostrils dilate

while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for

the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl&#33;"

"Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his

natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is

what our soldiers must become … " Che Guevara



He was very &#39;brave&#39; when he was at la But he seemed really scared after he was

Cabaña Fortress murdering innocent captured by Bolivian soldiers

civilians, including a 14 year old child

"I am much more valuable to you alive than dead," he told his captors pleading for

his life. Unfortunately for him, the Bolivian army gave him some of his own medicine



180 DOCUMENTED VICTIMS OF CHÉ GUEVARA IN CUBA: 1957 TO 1959

From: Armando M. Lago, Ph.D., Cuba. The Human Cost of Social Revolutions, unedited

Manuscript pending publication. Information provided by the TRUTH RECOVERY ARCHIVE ON CUBA

an undertaking of the FREE SOCIETY PROJECT, INC.

The exact number of Che’s Cuban victims has not been verified, but include people he personally

executed and those put to death under his orders. Che’s biographers consistently report that he sent

thousands to the firing squad. Over 4,000 deaths are documented to have taken place in Cuba, mostly

firing squad execution, in the first three years after Fidel Castro’s takeover (1959-1962). Che Guevara

was one of the regime’s chief executioners during this period and is said to have acknowledged ordering

"several thousand" executions. All took place without affording the victims fair trials and due process of law.

The following list is not exhaustive and only includes cases for which historic reference is known. Names are

cited as reported; dates and additional details for most are available. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba

and killings in countries where he led guerrilla operations have not been tallied.

14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958):

1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #1

6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #2 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES

11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS

10 executed in Santa Clara at Che’s orders in only two days (January 1959):

1. RAMÓN ALBA 2. JOSÉ BARROSO 3. JOAQUÍN CASILLAS 4. FÉLIX CRUZ 5. ALEJANDRO GARCÍA OLAYÓN

6. HÉCTOR MIRABAL 7. J. MIRABAL 8. FÉLIX MONTANO 9. CORNELIO ROJAS 10. VILALLA

156 executed at La Cabaña Fortress prison at Che Guevara’s orders:

1. VILAU ABREU 2. HUMBERTO AGUIAR 3. GERMÁN AGUIRRE 4. PELAYO ALAYÓN 5. JOSÉ LUIS ALFARO

6. PEDRO ALFARO 7. MARIANO ALONSO 8. JOSÉ ALVARO 9. ANIELLA 10. MARIO ARES POLO

11. JOSÉ RAMÓN BACALLAO 12. CEVERINO BARRIOS 13. EUGENIO BÉCQUER 14. FRANCISCO BÉCQUER

15. RAMÓN BISCET 16. ROBERTO CALZADILLA 17. EUFEMIO CANO 18. JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO

19. ANTONIO CARRALERO 20. GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS 21. JOSÉ CASTAÑO QUEVEDO 22. RAÚL CASTAÑO

23. EUFEMIO CHALA 24. JOSÉ CHAMACE 25. JOSÉ CHAMIZO 26. RAÚL CLAUSELL 27. ÁNGEL CLAUSELL

28. DEMETRIO CLAUSELL 29. JOSÉ CLAUSELL 30. ELOY CONTRERAS 31. ALBERTO CORBO 32. EMILIO CRUZ

33. JUAN FELIPE CRUZ 34. ORESTES CRUZ 35. HUMBERTO CUEVAS 36. CUNY 37. ANTONIO DE BECHE

38. MATEO DELGADO 39. ARMANDO DELGADO 40. RAMÓN DESPAIGNE 41. JOSÉ DÍAZ CABEZAS

42. ANTONIO DUARTE 43. RAMÓN FERNÁNDEZ OJEDA 44. RUDY FERNÁNDEZ 45. FERRÁN ALFONSO

46. SALVADOR FERRERO 47. VICTOR FIGUEREDO 48. EDUARDO FORTE 49. UGARDE GALÁN

50. RAFAEL GARCÍA MUÑIZ 51. ADALBERTO GARCÍA 52. ALBERTO GARCÍA 53. JACINTO GARCÍA

54. EVELIO GASPAR 55. ARMADA GIL Y DIEZ CABEZAS 56. JOSÉ GONZÁLEZ MALAGÓN 57. EVARISTO GONZÁLEZ

58. EZEQUIEL GONZÁLEZ 59. SECUNDINO GONZÁLEZ 60. RICARDO GRAO 61. BONIFACIO GRASSO

62. RICARDO JOSÉ GRAU 63. OSCAR GUERRA 64. JULIÁN HERNÁNDEZ 65. FRANCISCO HERNÁNDEZ LEYVA

66. ANTONIO HERNÁNDEZ 67. GERARDO HERNÁNDEZ 68. OLEGARIO HERNÁNDEZ 69. SECUNDINO HERNÁNDEZ

70. JESÚS INSUA 71. ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO 72. OSMÍN JORRÍN 73. SILVINO JUNCO 74. ENRIQUE LA ROSA

75. IGNACIO LASAPARLA 76. JESÚS LAZO 77. ARIEL LIMA LAGO 78. RAÚL LÓPEZ VIDAL 79. ARMANDO MAS

80. ENERLIO MATA 81. ELPIDIO MEDEROS 82. JOSÉ MEDINAS 83. JOSÉ MESA 84. FIDEL MESQUÍA

85. JUAN MILIÁN 86. FRANCISCO MIRABAL 87. LUIS MIRABAL 88. ERNESTO MORALES 89. PEDRO MOREJÓN

90. DR. CARLOS MUIÑO, MD. 91. CÉSAR NECOLARDES ROJAS 92. VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS 93. JOSÉ NUÑEZ

94. VITERBO O&#39;RREILLY 95. FÉLIX OVIEDO 96. MANUEL PANEQUE 97. PEDRO PEDROSO 98. RAFAEL PEDROSO

99. DIEGO PÉREZ CUESTA 100. JUAN PÉREZ 101. DIEGO PÉREZ CRELA 102. JOSÉ POZO 103. EMILIO PUEBLA

104. ALFREDO PUPO 105. SECUNDINO RAMÍREZ 106. RAMÓN RAMOS 107. PABLO RAVELO 108. RUBÉN REY

109. MARIO RISQUELME 110. FERNANDO RIVERA 111. PABLO RIVERA 112. MANUEL RODRÍGUEZ

113. MARCOS RODRÍGUEZ 114. NEMESIO RODRÍGUEZ 115. PABLO RODRÍGUEZ 116. RICARDO RODRÍGUEZ

117. JOSÉ SALDARA 118. PEDRO SANTANA 119. SERGIO SIERRA 120. JUAN SILVA 121. FAUSTO SILVA

122. ELPIDIO SOLER 123. JESÚS SOSA BLANCO 124. RENATO SOSA 125. SERGIO SOSA 126. PEDRO SOTO

127. OSCAR SUÁREZ 128. RAFAEL TARRAGO 129. TEODORO TELLEZ CISNEROS 130. FRANCISCO TELLEZ

131. JOSÉ TIN 132. FRANCISCO TRAVIESO 133. LEONARDO TRUJILLO 134. TRUJILLO 135. LUPE VALDÉS BARBOSA

136. MARCELINO VALDÉS 137. ANTONIO VALENTÍN 138. MANUEL VÁZQUEZ 139. SERGIO VÁZQUEZ 140. VERDECIA

141. DÁMASO ZAYAS

*15 additional executions were reported by The New York Times (on 2/6/59, 2/8/59, 3/16/59, and 4/2/59),

but names are unknown.


It&#39;s amazing what these people come up with&#33; :lol:

[fernando]

I once read somewhere that Che loved to eat babies...is that true? <_<

[RevolucioN NoW]

I once read somewhere that Che loved to eat babies...is that true? dry.gif

Yes, in fact che killed thousands of babies during his time in Cuba simply because they were too loud and he liked the taste

He also killed bambi&#39;s mother

:lol:

[fernando]

I KNEW IT&#33;&#33;&#33; Didnt he also order all his troops to rape all female prisoners?

But yeah I heard that before about Bambi&#39;s mother...what a prick&#33;

[Big Boss]

Oh yeah, he killed Camilo Cienfuegos&#33; :lol:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 10:09 PM
I once read somewhere that Che loved to eat babies...is that true? <_<
Yes, that is actually one of the dark sides of Che&#39;s legacy.

[fernando]

Originally posted by CompaneroDeLibertad+Sep 9 2005, 05:11 PM--> (CompaneroDeLibertad @ Sep 9 2005, 05:11 PM)
Socialist [email protected] 9 2005, 01:40 PM
Oh yeah, he killed Camilo Cienfuegos&#33; :lol:
Someone actually said that to me before. They were being serious.

<_< [/b]
people are also serious tha Fidel Castro had Che killed...there is room for more than enough conspiracy theories here

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 05:53 PM


Just because Che failed once doesn&#39;t mean he was &#39;blinded&#39; by anything, or that his theory should be bagged outright.



He had no support from the Bolivians. He went along with it anyways.
Due to their uneducation and the imprisonment of the Pro-China Communist.

[Lex]

Originally posted by NWOG+Sep 9 2005, 04:39 PM--> (NWOG @ Sep 9 2005, 04:39 PM)
[email protected] 8 2005, 10:09 PM
I once read somewhere that Che loved to eat babies...is that true? <_<
Yes, that is actually one of the dark sides of Che&#39;s legacy. [/b]
Is that true guys? <_<

[Lex]

Originally posted by fernando+Sep 9 2005, 09:55 PM--> (fernando @ Sep 9 2005, 09:55 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 05:11 PM

Socialist [email protected] 9 2005, 01:40 PM
Oh yeah, he killed Camilo Cienfuegos&#33; :lol:
Someone actually said that to me before. They were being serious.

<_<
people are also serious tha Fidel Castro had Che killed...there is room for more than enough conspiracy theories here [/b]
Personally, I dislike Fildel..To me, he played a part in Che&#39;s death..

[bunk]

Is that true guys?

How do you think he kept such a good complexion?

[fernando]

Originally posted by Lex+Sep 10 2005, 10:31 AM--> (Lex @ Sep 10 2005, 10:31 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 05:11 PM

Socialist [email protected] 9 2005, 01:40 PM
Oh yeah, he killed Camilo Cienfuegos&#33; :lol:
Someone actually said that to me before. They were being serious.

<_<
people are also serious tha Fidel Castro had Che killed...there is room for more than enough conspiracy theories here
Personally, I dislike Fildel..To me, he played a part in Che&#39;s death.. [/b]
perhaps he had a part in it...but it wasnt him who had Che killed, that was the CIA and the Bolivian militar.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Is that true guys? dry.gif

Do I need to say anything more?

http://www.nnc.cubaweb.cu/che/che_ninos.jpg





Personally, I dislike Fildel..To me, he played a part in Che&#39;s death..

To you?

Why, according to you, did he play a part in Che&#39;s death?

[Bark]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 08:54 AM
I think you&#39;re using "democracy" in the bourgeois sense. Cuba is one of the most democratic nation in the world, as this article (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys1a.html) points out.
Cant find that article and I really would like to see it.

[jack]

Obn Nazi is obviously a gusano pig. If you have not been removed from this list yet I would like to know why you can only name 180 people exectuted by Che. According to your gusano buddies in Miami he killed tens of thousands, however I know that you cannot name many more because the figure of thousands kiled is a big lie. He did preside a tribunals where several hundred were killed and they were the Bititistiano butchers who deserved it. That is why the Cuban people supported these trials .
Hasta La Victoria Siempre&#33; Venceremos&#33;

[Wanted Man]

It&#39;s not easy to say who deserves execution and who doesn&#39;t, nor am I a big fan of the death penalty. But looking at the general killers and torturers of Batista, and the situation Cuba was(and is) in, it&#39;s probably accurate to say that the executions mentioned were the only way to avoid a massive counter-revolution flowing on CIA money. Had these people been left alone, they would have played a huge part in the Bay of Pigs invasion. Had they been imprisoned, they might have fueled a prison uprising.

Anyway, the part about Stalin in the first post reminded me of some supposed quotes by Che I read on another forum, would anyone know whether he actually said these?

"Once more I could convince myself how terrible the capitalist octopuses are. I swore on a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin, I swore not to rest before these capitalist octopuses are destroyed."

"In the so called mistakes of Stalin lies the difference between a revolutionary attitude and a revisionist attitude. You have to look at Stalin in the historical context in which he moves, you don&#39;t have to look at him as some kind of brute, but in that particular historical context . . . I have come to communism because of daddy Stalin and nobody must come and tell me that I mustn&#39;t read Stalin. I read him when it was very bad to read him. That was another time. And because I&#39;m not very bright, and a hard-headed person, I keep on reading him. Especially in this new period, now that it is worse to read him. Then, as well as now, I still find a Seri of things that are very good."

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 07:59 AM
First of all, I do not much about Che at all. I&#39;d like to point to some negative statements which have been voiced about him.

Among these claims are:

-He started the concentration camps of Cuba, in idea if not in practice.

-Defeated freedom of speech

-Encouraged Castro to give up democracy.

-Jailed dissents, including different minorities like homosexuals.

-Had thousands of liberals and democrats killed.

-Had a small boy killed (had stolen food) as an example for others.

-Within the prison of Cabana, he had several of his former (to their consequent misfortune, democratic) comrades-in-arms executed.

-Lived a life of luxury in Havanna.

-Admirer of Stalin

-Hoped for the third world war, which China & the Soviet Union was supposed to win

Unfortunately I cannot provide references.

Those sympathetic to Castro & Cuba of present may not raise an eyebrow, but those critical of them and fans of Che might hold inconsistent views?

Thanks, in advance, for all polite answers.
i very much doubt that che would have the icon status if ANYTHING from that list was true&#33;&#33; these stories are just creations of the right-wing press and its just wat the bastards want u to believe. if che didnt believe in socialism, he wouldnt have fought so hard for it&#33;&#33; and he DID fight hard. read the motorcycle diaries and then call him a despot. and he did NOT turn castro off democracy, he showed him marx, so he created the best functioning socialist land in the world, and all future marxist revolutions will be based on his beliefs.

[Defiance]

naturally, the opposition would do everything in their power to slander his name. don&#39;t believe the bullshit that they dish out. study and research. seek truth. for example - i was always given the impression that "Communism" was a bad thing... like it was something evil... until i came across the manifesto and found it to be something quite the opposite. like i said... seek truth. find out for your SELF. free your mind.

[DisIllusion]

Yeah, naturally they bring up the people he had killed. Even though I don&#39;t support the death penalty, these people, in a way, deserved to die. They were sadists and basically the Gestapo of the Batista regime, and since the new Cuban government wasn&#39;t especially stable yet; they couldn&#39;t really do anything with them and definitely could not risk letting them go.

[Tepethe]

Dont forget the claim that he fucked dolphins.

[DisIllusion]

Dont forget the claim that he fucked dolphins.

lol?

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

That was claimed in a hilarious "The truth about Che Guevara" thread (by BANANARAMA I think). Go read it, and laugh your guts out.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Oh, actually it was claimed by this same Tepethe dude. The thread has obviously been moved to the Trashcan, you can read it here (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=42006)

[NovelGentry]

This is outright bizarre. Without a source, how is anyone supposed to believe this nonsense?

The story of Che killing a little boy is actually an abstracted story from his diaries on the Cuban revolution. One of the guerillas (I don&#39;t recall whether or not he was young) deserted and stole all the food that they had, he was captured and shot. One thing that should be understood quite clearly is that at this point the food stolen was a matter of life and death for a good portion of the guerrilla forces.

All of them knew the consequences of such an action, sometimes when found they were punished, sometimes not.

[Big Boss]

"Once more I could convince myself how terrible the capitalist octopuses are. I swore on a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin, I swore not to rest before these capitalist octopuses are destroyed."

I believe that this quote is true. I remember reading it in the John Lee Anderson biography on Che.


"In the so called mistakes of Stalin lies the difference between a revolutionary attitude and a revisionist attitude. You have to look at Stalin in the historical context in which he moves, you don&#39;t have to look at him as some kind of brute, but in that particular historical context . . . I have come to communism because of daddy Stalin and nobody must come and tell me that I mustn&#39;t read Stalin. I read him when it was very bad to read him. That was another time. And because I&#39;m not very bright, and a hard-headed person, I keep on reading him. Especially in this new period, now that it is worse to read him. Then, as well as now, I still find a Seri of things that are very good."

I don&#39;t know about that one&#33; :unsure:

[I&#39;m the red under your bed]

He didnt like the soviets.He was a maoist.

[Correa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 01:29 PM
The stupidest one I&#39;ve ever heard was that, "Che shot down Camilo Cienfuegos plane"(&#33;&#33;)
It wasen&#39;t Che it was really Fidel&#33; Remember Fidel wanted absolute power so he had to eliminate his competition *wink* *wink* :lol:

[ketchupstan]

According to Javier Arzuaga, a chaplin at La Cabaña, that executed child&#39;s name was Arial Lima. And Che killed people based on their religion, so says Paquito D’Rivera. This article (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535) is a bit dramatic, but has legitimate sources.

[ReD_ReBeL]

for the love of fuck sake&#33; why even ask half of this stuff, you know its not true. there capitalist lies pure lies most of it. They have noticed how much of an icon Che is and what an influence he has on the world exspecialy the youth. This capitalist propaganda is simply to discredit him and stop the spreading of leaftist ideals. As for why would Che ever see a child/young teenager as such a threat that he would execute the poor boy/girl? Think about these things, Che isn&#39;t just some nutcase who shoots up everyone. the truth is the number of executions which went ahead under Che&#39;s command after the revolution was 600. But take into acount this is after a revolutionary war where u have just overthrown a corrupt brutal dictatorship, so take into account all the murderers, rapists, torturers there would be left.

[Janus]

Animal Rights, I&#39;m surprised that you didn&#39;t mention one of the most popular lies about Che: that he was a murderer of gays and AIDS victims. :lol:

Most of the outrageous claims that you posted are bourgeois propaganda. Yes, it is true that he had counter-revolutionaries killed. But letting capitalists and counter-revolutionaries live is totally impractical and will only lead to the downfall of the revolution. Che definitely didn&#39;t want that. You should actually research and analyze Che for yourself; might I suggest John Lee Anderson&#39;s Che?

[ReD_ReBeL]

yes u are very right Che did not kill gays and AIDS victims but the revolutionary goverment did put homosexuals in consentration camps and Che did not like gay people very much.

[ketchupstan]

AIDS? The disease was first recognized in 1981, 14 years after Che&#39;s death. There&#39;s no way anyone would claim or believe that.

[Janus]

You&#39;re right. However, Red Rebel was talking about the Cuban government&#39;s isolation of Cuban AIDS victims in the 1980&#39;s after the return of many infected soldiers from the war in Angola. Of course, Che was already dead then. This is what confuses many people and they blame it on Che.

[Counter revolutionary]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 17 2005, 04:16 AM
But letting capitalists and counter-revolutionaries live is totally impractical and will only lead to the downfall of the revolution. Che definitely didn&#39;t want that. You should actually research and analyze Che for yourself; might I suggest John Lee Anderson&#39;s Che?
Wait, how come when Che kills counter-revolutionaries to &#39;better the state&#39; in his eyes it&#39;s necessary, but when anyone who isn&#39;t Communist, marxist, leninist, maoist, etc., gets into fights with people who are in groups which actively beat the shit out of others for doing nothing more than going into a war in order to defend their country, they are a tyrant?

[gewehr_3]

my Fascist "friend" (actually i hate him now) puts Che on the same level as Kim Jung Il because "they both killed people" and of course its impossible to argue with him because he doesnt accept any thing you say. He is also a self proclaimed jeEnYus. because he got a 32 on his ACT after studying for 2 months.
My brother got a 28 after being out of high school for 2 yeasrs and he took it after partying the previous night and with 3 hours of sleep.

[cccpcommie]

where was it proven that che disliked gays?..ive never heard that a day in my life..

[ReD_ReBeL]

in John Lee Anderson&#39;s biography on Che , theres a passage which the words comes from Che&#39;s mouth and his feelings towards gay people, I would post the passage but one of my mates is lending that book of me, so ask sum1 else who has read it . And also in the Cuban revolution there was a few gay ppl in the guerilla&#39;s and they got the piss took out of them and jokes towards them becoz thy were homsexuals.Now i am not discrediting the revolution im just stating your question, and u&#39;ve got to remember wht year that was,homosexuality wasnt as widely accepted bck thn.