Has the left died?

[Albania]

i'm not sure as to how to aproach this as it is after all my very first post. We have to keep in mind that it is 2005 already. Has the Communist formula failed? Have we lost the war?

I grew up in a very communist country, ALBANIA. But we were starving to death, we were far removed from Che's dreams or any other's for that matter...

I embraced leftist ideas later, when Albania had turned to capitalism. it did not work for us as we proved that human race had a hard time embracing "the common good".

But I love justice and I love equality. Is socialism the only option left for a while?

What da ya think fellas?

[Fidelbrand]

For Albania, do you think the communist turn to capitalist is due to
1) the internal problems of socialism/communism?
or
2) the external beenfits that capitalism provide on the surface?

Personally, I think democratic socialism is an indispensible phase that will move us foward in a just and more egalitarian way.

To avoid being labelled as utopian, we leftists has to cater the needs of the masses. Not to say that we loose our principles and subdue to their consumerist sheep-herd liberal mentalities..... but we have to incrementally instil our ideas to them and brainstorm with them.

Human race has a hard time embracing the common good because when you Albanians were doing the right thing for the right cause, countries in the world are affected by capitalist globalization. They are capitalistic.

And in socialist countires with a strong government, the government is the be all and end all determinant in shaping the future. You need a good leader wise and charismatic enough to lead and to persuade and to motivate his/her people to move their ass collectively. But in reality, leaders of this kind are in lack....... but I still believe a benevolent leader is hiding somehwere . I don't loose hope.

Metaphorically speaking, capitalism is like a full-meat diet. Yeah, it's delicious, but constipation will form and cancer will occur. I opt for something in between. Vegetables are necessary for a "balance" diet. In this context, a more balanced way of life should be what human beings are achieving for.

[Taiga]

Wrong forum.
Please move.

[Fidelbrand]

ok, wait up.

[Led Zeppelin]

But we were starving to death

And how are you doing now?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Albania was never socialist.

[Clarksist]

Albania was never socialist.


It was however further to the left than capitalism.

The Left hasn't died, the "formula of communism" has not died. It hasn't been birthed yet.

[afnan]

The Renewing of Socialism by John Bellamy Foster (http://reddiarypk.blogspot.com/2005/08/renewing-of-socialism-by-john-bellamy.html)

[Lamanov]

Albania:

Communism is a progressive and developed classless society democraticaly run by the workers through their collective political organs.

Albania was not even developed or progressive, the rest you can conclude on your own. Albania was not a "communist country". Never any of them was.

It had an ecenomic and political structure of a typical maoist state-capitalist "socialism".


Don't let the stalinists and maoists to fool you.

[Axel1917]

I must point out something: If communism is so impossible, then why do they keep spending money on slandering, vilifying, etc. it? The only reason why everyone hates it is due to the capitalist ideology hammered into peoples' heads in school and such. In fact, if you mention a lot of aspects of communism without making specific reference to communism, most people seem to support it. Socialism is the unconcsious will of the masses,and they will become concious socialists when their currerend ideology starts to crack under the immense pressure of crisises and such.

[The Feral Underclass]

Has the left died? Not yet, but it certainly is getting there unless it renews itself with something far more aggressive and creative.

We are seeing the same old formulas time and time again and they are failing time and time again. Capitalism is co-opting resistance now, to such an extent, that they will have branded communism and sold it back to us.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 22 2005, 03:56 PM
Has the left died? Not yet, but it certainly is getting there unless it renews itself with something far more aggressive and creative.
And fortunately evidence suggests that is happening. Mainly during the G8 protests, I got to speak to a few long-running members of some Left wing organisations. All of which had accepted a continuing pattern, that recently, with the MPH campaigns and the Antiwar movement, younger people have been triggered into politics. Perhaps prompted by initially liberal ideas, young people have found their questions answered by Socialism, Communism and Anarchism. Several left wing groups have had a small increase in membership within the past few months, and most think this will continue.

More optimistic than that is a massive slump in the worlds economy that is predicted to hit the west quite soon. Another depression is on the way (supposedly), and we all no that in times of relative poverty people feel disillusioned with their masters...

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 22 2005, 03:56 PM
Has the left died? Not yet, but it certainly is getting there unless it renews itself with something far more aggressive and creative.

We are seeing the same old formulas time and time again and they are failing time and time again. Capitalism is co-opting resistance now, to such an extent, that they will have branded communism and sold it back to us.
There are plenty of things arising to keep the Left alive and renew it. The future of China is still uncertain (the question of the 20 years of growth and such making it the biggest capitalist power are a major if, things are unfolding quite rapidly in Venezuela and in other parts of Latin America, many in the US are starting to oppose Bush and his Imperialism (in reality, they are already unconciously opposing capitalism), etc. As long as there are oppressors, the left shall live on, and with that time, there will be many opporunities for socialist revolution.

We are not entering some kind of slump! We are on the verge of seeing new world revolutions! Revolutionary actions are already taking place!

[saint max]

Has the Left died?

Yes. please don't consume it's corpse.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by saint [email protected] 22 2005, 11:59 PM
Has the Left died?

Yes. please don't consume it's corpse.
no that was art.


the left aint dead, just look at all the demos.

[Organic Revolution]

the left has died because creativity and action have dropped to an all time low on the communist platform, and they have fallen into the theory, and waiting for the party to tell them what to do and where to go.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 06:05 PM
There are plenty of things arising to keep the Left alive and renew it.
Like what?


The future of China is still uncertain (the question of the 20 years of growth and such making it the biggest capitalist power are a major if, things are unfolding quite rapidly in Venezuela and in other parts of Latin America, many in the US are starting to oppose Bush and his Imperialism (in reality, they are already unconciously opposing capitalism), etc. As long as there are oppressors, the left shall live on, and with that time, there will be many opporunities for socialist revolution.

I was talking about the real left.


We are not entering some kind of slump! We are on the verge of seeing new world revolutions! Revolutionary actions are already taking place!

I like the optimism, but I think its very misplaced.

[coda]

i don't think it died, but is being reborn. it did die in the 80's. But, put it this way... you can count Seattle as the coming out party of the new left in the US, don't know how things were in the UK or other places, but the US you can say 1999. so, in about three years from now, marks the 10th anniversary of this new mobilization. i think that's a good sign and as long as we keep up the resistance this time. it's a slow process getting the masses together. We know it won't happen overnight. I think one problem is that the left is too scattered into many different groups and campaigns, (Noticed that with the new RCP "Drive Bush out" campaign to install Avakian... do we really need yet another group-thing going?) -- all working on the same things, but in many different directions, and should rather be consolidated into ONE mass movement in each region. But, things are looking good otherwise, i think. i'm pretty optimistic for the most part too.

[Enragé]

"I like the optimism, but I think its very misplaced. "

he might be a bit over-optimistic, but the left is growing, cuz we have finally put stalinism behind us (for the most part)

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Aug 23 2005, 08:47 AM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Aug 23 2005, 08:47 AM)
[email protected] 22 2005, 06:05 PM
There are plenty of things arising to keep the Left alive and renew it.
Like what?


The future of China is still uncertain (the question of the 20 years of growth and such making it the biggest capitalist power are a major if, things are unfolding quite rapidly in Venezuela and in other parts of Latin America, many in the US are starting to oppose Bush and his Imperialism (in reality, they are already unconciously opposing capitalism), etc. As long as there are oppressors, the left shall live on, and with that time, there will be many opporunities for socialist revolution.

I was talking about the real left.


We are not entering some kind of slump! We are on the verge of seeing new world revolutions! Revolutionary actions are already taking place!

I like the optimism, but I think its very misplaced. [/b]
Well, first of all, the events unfolding in Venezuela are quite revolutionary, and if things keep going in the right direction, it will send shockwaves all over the world when capitalism is overthrown there; there is not a single stable captialist regime from the Rio Grande to the Tierra Del Fuego. Those shockwaves will inevitably spread all over the planet, and it could rapidly trasnform the situation in China of slipping to capitalism to genuine socialism. We also have the fact that the growing hatred of Bush in the USA is, in reality, hatred toward capitalism. The masses' lack of understanding, at this point in time, think that Bush is the sole problem, but in reality, their hatred is directed against capitailsm itself, as Bush is merely a figurehead of Bourgeois dictatorship.

What is this "real left"? Not to mention that there is no pure starting point to shift toward the left. It takes many injustices, much suffering, etc. before quantity becomes transformed into quality, when people shift to revolutionary ideology.

Say what you will, but as long as capitalism exists, it won't be able to eliminate its inherent contradictions, of which spell continued struggle against it.

[monkeydust]

Interesting topic.

I think the answer to the question posed has to be "no". The left hasn't "died", that much is clear from the fact that there still are plenty of leftists around, people who believe leftist ideals - socialism, social democracy, anarchism, communism, whatever - and who attempt to work towards those ideals.

Whether or not the left is "dying" or not remains to be seen. In part, it depends what you mean by "left". Those who still proclaim themselves to be "leftists" - social democrats and left-leaning liberals - are still very much part of contemporary society, and their values and beliefs are still pretty mainstream.

As for the "far left" - the side of things which most of us tend to affiliate with - matters are far less certain. It seemed clear to many at the time that the collapse of eastern-bloc socialism in 1989-91 that the far left was facing imminent obsolescence. In terms of actual countries where far-left ideas are popular and mainstream, they seem to have been proved right so far. Hardly any socialist states have since emerged, and many of those that have remained - such as Vietnam and most notably China - have been sliding with growing pace towards a capitalist eonomic system.

But the ideas of the "far left" still exist. People still hold them. Many new ones are being created and advocated in the form of environmentalist movements across the west. There's at least a fair chance that far-left ideas may become current once again in the world, so it's probably far too early to declare them to be "dead" or "dying".

We'll have to wait and see.

[redstar2000]

We will do better once we finally get out from under the shadows of Lenin and his heirs -- all of them!

But it's pretty clear that it will still be awhile before that task is accomplished. :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[enigma2517]

The combination of Western propaganda and the collapse of the Soviet Union has made up the minds of a lot of people. I deal with everyday skepticism from adults but I can safely report that those who didn't live in fear of the USSR (teenagers my age) are actually highly receptive to the ideas. The only problem is there is no mainstream to join so breaking away from the majority is (understandably) a challenge. Taking action is indeed hard.

Promoting communist ideas isn't even the concern right now I think. First people need to see (through direct action and solidarity) just how much leverage they hold over the world. Only after we've done that can we influence the movement to take a communist direction (although thats essentially what we've been doing anyway)

[Vanguard1917]

The greatest problem for the left in the past 20 years or so has been the social climate of class peace. The decline of the class struggles of the past have affected the left profoundly. It has nothing to do with "the shadows of Lenin and his heirs". When a political movement loses the social struggles on which it once stood , it degenerates into obscurity. Today the "left" is dominated by the likes of environmentalists, primitivists, animal rights activists, multiculturalists, and general cynics of progress of all sorts.

There's an old saying: when a green grocer loses his customers, he'll use the scales to weigh his testicles. In other words, the left has lost its reason for existing, and its activists (who were once engaged in most progressive causes) have sank into (often reactionary) idleness.

[Lamanov]

:rolleyes:

Revolutionary left (marxism and anarcism) is a product capitalism, and the reason of it's existence. It cannot lose the "reason for existing" until the reason itself is destroyed.

Why some "left" is descending into idleness and reformism is because the real existence of such "left" is based not on the destruction of capitalism, but the ways to transform and continue it.

That's exactly what the "heirs of Lenin (http://www.broadleft.org/communis.htm)" are. Today's state of such "left" is the proof of it's real character.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by DJ-[email protected] 25 2005, 09:45 AM
:rolleyes:

Revolutionary left (marxism and anarcism) is a product capitalism, and the reason of it's existence. It cannot lose the "reason for existing" until the reason itself is destroyed.

Why some "left" is descending into idleness and reformism is because the real existence of such "left" is based not on the destruction of capitalism, but the ways to transform and continue it.

That's exactly what the "heirs of Lenin (http://www.broadleft.org/communis.htm)" are. Today's state of such "left" is the proof of it's real character.
Exactly. Many "leftists" only want reform, not Revolution. This is why they have idled. We need the total destruction of this barbaric system of profit and greed and exploitation, not a different flavor of it! :angry:

[Amusing Scrotum]

In Britain from what I can gather Thatcher, basically destroyed the left in the revolutionary sense. She did however have alot of help from the likes of Scargill selling out. Then instead of waiting for their time, the left adopted a bourgouise Socialism of sorts. Which has led to Blair, Mandelson and aload of other parlour pinks. With no links to either the working class or revolutionary Socialism.
If only scientists invented an age defying formula, gave it to Tony Benn, who would become 30 years younger, and then became the post Blair leader of the Labour Party. Now that would be wonderful. ;)