A well know conflict: Palestinia. [Archive]

*PRC*Kensei

19th August 2005, 22:23

Originally posted by Che [email protected] 19 2005, 09:37 PM
They may recognise them somewhere in the near future. The forced withdrawl of israeli sttlers in palestinian territory is a step in the right direction. If israelis leave palestinian land, it's essentially theirs. Jerusalem is a big problem though. That's going to cause alot of problems.
well, its a very simple tought.....but its the place jezus was born...mohammed wasnt born there......so give it so the catolics / judes. i know there are also religious "artifacts" like moskees there that are of importance to the islamics, but having a country is more important to the palistinians atm.

but thats just a quik, non-well-thought-about-opinoin.

bolshevik butcher

19th August 2005, 23:00

I support th two state solution. Palistine should consist of at least the west abnk, gazza strip and west jerusalem. But i do not want to see israel blasted into the sea.

Seeker

20th August 2005, 00:52

I don't support the existence of an exlusivly Jewish State, or a State for exclusivly Any Other Religion.

People should be allowed to move about as they please, and if that means more non-Jews than Jews are living on the land that is today called Israel, that is O.K.

I don't think anyone should be restricted from living there, or anywhere else, based on their faith or where they were born.

I don't often support the actions (that I hear about) of either side of the conflict (the media I have access to depicts both sides as monsters who long ago lost their humanity), and do not hope for the death of either side (everyone involved is a victim at some level), but I don't believe in "birthrights".

The notion that the world 'owes' you somthing because of who your parents are is ridiculous. Jewish Pride is no better than Ayrian Pride is no better than Arabian Pride is no better than Persian Pride . . .

I was raised as a Jew (even though my mother was Christian, she was meek and my father was a bully), but am anti-Zionist. Comming in with guns and deporting millions of people so that new people can move in cannot be justified by using the word "birthright". The right to live in a particular area is (or should be) shared equaly among all of us.

Enragé

20th August 2005, 00:58

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 19 2005, 10:18 PM
I support th two state solution. Palistine should consist of at least the west abnk, gazza strip and west jerusalem. But i do not want to see israel blasted into the sea.
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.

Dark Exodus

20th August 2005, 01:39

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 12:10 AM
I don't support the existence of an exlusivly Jewish State, or a State for exclusivly Any Other Religion.

Then you are opposed to all of the Islamic ones as well, yes? Just you didn't mention them.

I support the Palestinians, they don't have nukes or gunships or tanks or backing from the most powerful country in the world.

timbaly

20th August 2005, 03:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 07:16 PM
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.
Do you mean that Palestinians should rule the entire land area that is now Israel? I don't see how this is morally correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you think all the Israelis should be forced off the land?

Seeker

20th August 2005, 03:39

Then you are opposed to all of the Islamic ones as well, yes? Just you didn't mention them.

Correct.

In addition, I do what I can to keep Christianity out of the politics of my own country.

BuyOurEverything

20th August 2005, 04:37

I support the Palestinians, they don't have nukes or gunships or tanks or backing from the most powerful country in the world.

That's the stupidest fucking statement ever. In an incredibly complex conflict that's been going on for decades, you support one side entirely solely because they have less guns? Fucking pathetic.

Anyways, if you want an indepth discussion of this topic, I reccommend going to this (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=36396) thread.

guerillablack

20th August 2005, 10:37

Get em outta there.

bolshevik butcher

20th August 2005, 11:32

Originally posted by timbaly+Aug 20 2005, 02:46 AM--> (timbaly @ Aug 20 2005, 02:46 AM)
[email protected] 19 2005, 07:16 PM
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.
Do you mean that Palestinians should rule the entire land area that is now Israel? I don't see how this is morally correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you think all the Israelis should be forced off the land? [/b]
yeh tahts certainly the picture i get. So you support moving out a hige body of people bexause their ancestors drove out a huge body of people?

*PRC*Kensei

20th August 2005, 12:06

well, i'm clearly for the palestinians, but i'm not saying how the conflict should evolve...

the judes must have a land...

besides, it's not on the mather, but ... i think the Roma should have a little country of their own to.

Dark Exodus

20th August 2005, 12:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 03:55 AM
That's the stupidest fucking statement ever. In an incredibly complex conflict that's been going on for decades, you support one side entirely solely because they have less guns? Fucking pathetic.

You don't see the difference between a nuke/tank/gunship and an AK-47 or someone with a homemade bomb strapped to themselves?

Intifada

20th August 2005, 13:27

Until Palestinians are given justice and freedom, through the end of the illegal occupation, there will never be peace between Jew and Arab.

Enragé

20th August 2005, 15:39

Originally posted by timbaly+Aug 20 2005, 02:46 AM--> (timbaly @ Aug 20 2005, 02:46 AM)
[email protected] 19 2005, 07:16 PM
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.
Do you mean that Palestinians should rule the entire land area that is now Israel? I don't see how this is morally correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you think all the Israelis should be forced off the land? [/b]
because all that land is originally Palestinian. And no i dont want to remove the jews, but they should live in a Palestinian state, preferably a secular one.

Qwerty Dvorak

20th August 2005, 15:50

VIVA LA PALESTINE!!!

sorry, but the isrealis are being a real pain in the ass about this one, arent they? i mean, there are right-wingers kicking and screaming and threatening to kill themselves if their land is given back to its rightful owners.

dude, chill out! smoke a joint or sumthin!

bolshevik butcher

20th August 2005, 18:08

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier+Aug 20 2005, 02:57 PM--> (NewKindOfSoldier @ Aug 20 2005, 02:57 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:46 AM

[email protected] 19 2005, 07:16 PM
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.
Do you mean that Palestinians should rule the entire land area that is now Israel? I don't see how this is morally correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you think all the Israelis should be forced off the land?
because all that land is originally Palestinian. And no i dont want to remove the jews, but they should live in a Palestinian state, preferably a secular one. [/b]
In that case all white americans should leave and go back to there respective european homelands. All black americans should go back to africa. See how farcical that is? Hopefully eventually both would live in peace and harmony in a socialst federaion but for the immediate futurea t least two states is the ebst solution.

*PRC*Kensei

20th August 2005, 19:49

but then black & white americans aint fighting eachother (anymore :P )

the judes dont have to leave, but RECOGNICE the palestinian nation, so the palestinians can start to settle things out officialy.

Enragé

20th August 2005, 20:50

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Aug 20 2005, 05:26 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Aug 20 2005, 05:26 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:46 AM

[email protected] 19 2005, 07:16 PM
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.
Do you mean that Palestinians should rule the entire land area that is now Israel? I don't see how this is morally correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you think all the Israelis should be forced off the land?
because all that land is originally Palestinian. And no i dont want to remove the jews, but they should live in a Palestinian state, preferably a secular one.
In that case all white americans should leave and go back to there respective european homelands. All black americans should go back to africa. See how farcical that is? Hopefully eventually both would live in peace and harmony in a socialst federaion but for the immediate futurea t least two states is the ebst solution. [/b]
AS I FUCKING SAID THE JEWS DONT HAVE TO LEAVE, ALL THEY DO IS DISMANTLE ISRAEL AND ACKNOWLEDGE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY

and if in the US the Sioux create an independent state and they want that part of the US to have their flag, and their name, i'll support them. This does not mean that the europeans/blacks have to leave.

Phalanx

20th August 2005, 21:23

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 12:10 AM
The right to live in a particular area is (or should be) shared equaly among all of us.
It's funny that you say that. Jordan, a more 'moderate' Arab state, doesn't allow Jews to live there. And Saudi Arabia doesn't even let non-Muslims enter Mecca.

bolshevik butcher

20th August 2005, 21:41

As socialists shouldnt we look upons this as reactionary bull shit?! I think the jews, now being bron there and brought up there also have a right to land there. Of course the palistineans have a right to a nation, but in the current light i think that the israelis do as well. Maybe one day a voluntary federation will exist.

novemba

20th August 2005, 23:00

Chinggis Kahn you have no idea what you are talkin about. I am a jordanian citizen and at my Halto Mariams house we have jewish neighbors....

as for the conflict:

peace is the answer, share the land, or give each faction self autonomy.

Tel Aviv and the surrounding areas belong to the isrealis, jews lived there before isreal. The west bank, south of jerusalem and gaza should be palestinian territory. I think jerusalem should be made into a DMZ or a self governed city which the UN organized, cause thats everybodys land since the beginning of time.

timbaly

20th August 2005, 23:59

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Aug 20 2005, 05:50 AM--> (Clenched Fist @ Aug 20 2005, 05:50 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:46 AM

[email protected] 19 2005, 07:16 PM
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.
Do you mean that Palestinians should rule the entire land area that is now Israel? I don't see how this is morally correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you think all the Israelis should be forced off the land?
yeh tahts certainly the picture i get. So you support moving out a hige body of people bexause their ancestors drove out a huge body of people? [/b]
I don't think either side should be forced off any lands. I thought you were implying that the Israelis should all be driven out, but I didn't want to start a debate based on that since I wasn't sure if that is what you were saying.

timbaly

21st August 2005, 00:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 03:08 PM
because all that land is originally Palestinian. And no i dont want to remove the jews, but they should live in a Palestinian state, preferably a secular one.

What do you mean by a Palestinian state? What would make it Palestinian and not Israeli? I don't think you mean that only Palestinians should rule, but I want to know what you do mean.

Enragé

21st August 2005, 00:57

Originally posted by timbaly+Aug 20 2005, 11:19 PM--> (timbaly @ Aug 20 2005, 11:19 PM)
[email protected] 20 2005, 03:08 PM
because all that land is originally Palestinian. And no i dont want to remove the jews, but they should live in a Palestinian state, preferably a secular one.

What do you mean by a Palestinian state? What would make it Palestinian and not Israeli? I don't think you mean that only Palestinians should rule, but I want to know what you do mean. [/b]
Palestinian because the palestinians are the majority.

And no I would like to see a Secular Democratic State of Palestine, in which jews and palestinians have equal rights.
(Well a people's republic of Palestine is better but you know what i mean)

redmafiosi

21st August 2005, 13:19

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Aug 20 2005, 05:26 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Aug 20 2005, 05:26 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:46 AM

[email protected] 19 2005, 07:16 PM
palestine should be the whole god damn country. Not only because that is simply morally correct but also because you cannot create a viable state with two strips of land separated by a military and economic power.
Do you mean that Palestinians should rule the entire land area that is now Israel? I don't see how this is morally correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you think all the Israelis should be forced off the land?
because all that land is originally Palestinian. And no i dont want to remove the jews, but they should live in a Palestinian state, preferably a secular one.
In that case all white americans should leave and go back to there respective european homelands. All black americans should go back to africa. See how farcical that is? Hopefully eventually both would live in peace and harmony in a socialst federaion but for the immediate futurea t least two states is the ebst solution. [/b]
Means nothing. The middle east would remain the same as long as the american capitalistic interest prevails. Mind it- it's the capitalistic interest. Do you people think for nothing the allied power put the jews in this land after the 2nd world war?
The Empire(The American State) is the undisputed leader of the international capitalistic interest. The Palestine -Israil issue is a face off only.

As long as there'll be conflict of nationalities in the region the interest of the Empire is safe. What is required is an unified front against the the Empire. As in the region natural resources (other than oil)are very limited the concept of societies based on nationality will always bring clashes. Only a socialist sociaty including all the nations is the solution.

BuyOurEverything

21st August 2005, 17:45

You don't see the difference between a nuke/tank/gunship and an AK-47 or someone with a homemade bomb strapped to themselves?

Not ideologically.

timbaly

21st August 2005, 20:09

I was going to aks about that weaponry comment but I forgot. I'm glad you mentioned it again.

If the Israelis were the ones with the AK-47s and homemade expolsives would you support their cause over the palestinian cause assuming that the Palestinians were getting US aid. This is also assuming that the Palestinians are the nationless refugees and the Israelis are the dominant group of the region.

Mr Brightside

21st August 2005, 20:10

The Israeli government pulling 5,000 Israeli's out of Gaza merely disracts from thre fact that there are 250,000 (approx.) in the West Bank. Gaza is not the most attractive place as far as they are concerned, its dusty and desert like in most places, not a great loss to Israel. The media spotlight is so focused on this isolated event that the real issues are being ignored, Palestinian rights are routinely abused by the authorities in Israel. If a similar situation had arised except with Palestinians being moved the tactics would have been a lot more heavy handed, using tanks or, as they have done in the past, air strikes on residential areas. Bush and Blair invaded Iraq on the grounds of human rights abuses against the Iraqi people by their own government (after the WMD argument fell to pieces), perhaps it is about time they took a look at the human rights abuses and extensive nuclear armoury of the Israeli government. However, I think we all know this will be overlooked by both the western governments and mass media.

:( :angry: :(

Sihvyl

22nd August 2005, 22:13

All I have to say is: when there are over 20 arab nations, why; oh why, do we another country for them? There is one Jewish nation in the world, and it's existence is constantly being diminished by concessions to the Palestinians. Sorry, but I think the Jews more then deserve this little plot of land thats been theirs (for the most part) for millenia. I say the palys need to go back around their own kind and take advantage of some of the land that their people have legitamently acquired. Israel doesn't need a higher population per square mile, but the arab countries could accomidate it easy.

For all that are passionate about something: take whatever your most passionate about; that feeling is probably comparable to how the Israeli's feel about preservation of their holy land. Israel defines the history and beliefs of the Jews, it is all they have. Jews make up ~0.02% of the world population, and yet look around you at the impact they have created. They deserve something, and that something is not problems from the Palestinians.

Just my $0.02, I know it's controversial...

Enragé

23rd August 2005, 00:04

Sihvyl

23rd August 2005, 01:58

Religious Freedom

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 guarantees freedom of religion for all. Each religious community is free, by law and in practice, to exercise its faith, to observe its holidays and weekly day of rest and to administer its internal affairs. Each has its own religious council and courts, recognized by law and with jurisdiction over all religious affairs and matters of personal status such as marriage and divorce. Each has its own unique places of worship, with traditional rituals and special architectural features developed over the centuries.

Hiero

23rd August 2005, 04:53

When i originally put thought to this situation i was very liberal minded. I believed in a two state solution, there was Israel and then Palastine, both share the land.

Recently a friend told me "the thing is there is no Israel. it is a false state inside Palastine". After thinking about it i agreed, and everything fell into place.

Now i know there were Jews in Palastine originally, but how does this matter at all. Most Jews in Israel are immigrates from the US and Europe. Just because there are Jews living in Israel, does not give the right for other Jews, who are connected by religion, any right to call Israel homeland.

In Israel, there were Jews living in Israel before WW1, but it was US Jewish Zionists who made the first moves to create a nation, buying land off the British and French government that was promised to the Arabs. The Zionist moved in, and then in 1948 claimed that a nation Israel existed. Then with large migration to "Israel" Jews begin settling in their homeland.

After being told Israel is a false state, it made me realise the reality of the situation.

In Palastine there is a false state called Israel, made mostly of citizens who have no ties to the land beyond a 1 or two generations and religious ties, this state has claimed authority over the native people, and is pushing them off their land.

I support the destruction of the false state called Israel, the deporting of its false citizens back to their real homelands, and the creation of the real state called Palastine whos citizens will be the people who have real claim to call it their homeland.

Enragé

23rd August 2005, 13:55

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 01:16 AM
Religious Freedom

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 guarantees freedom of religion for all. Each religious community is free, by law and in practice, to exercise its faith, to observe its holidays and weekly day of rest and to administer its internal affairs. Each has its own religious council and courts, recognized by law and with jurisdiction over all religious affairs and matters of personal status such as marriage and divorce. Each has its own unique places of worship, with traditional rituals and special architectural features developed over the centuries.
http://tellinglies.org/news/archives/000202.html

ok its not that you CANT be citizen, but it is way harder.
Which is discrimination.

viva le revolution

23rd August 2005, 17:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 09:31 PM
All I have to say is: when there are over 20 arab nations, why; oh why, do we another country for them? There is one Jewish nation in the world, and it's existence is constantly being diminished by concessions to the Palestinians. Sorry, but I think the Jews more then deserve this little plot of land thats been theirs (for the most part) for millenia. I say the palys need to go back around their own kind and take advantage of some of the land that their people have legitamently acquired. Israel doesn't need a higher population per square mile, but the arab countries could accomidate it easy.

For all that are passionate about something: take whatever your most passionate about; that feeling is probably comparable to how the Israeli's feel about preservation of their holy land. Israel defines the history and beliefs of the Jews, it is all they have. Jews make up ~0.02% of the world population, and yet look around you at the impact they have created. They deserve something, and that something is not problems from the Palestinians.

Just my $0.02, I know it's controversial...
1.You just gave it away! There is a JEWISH nation in Israel, therefore religious freedom goes out the window, because any arabs still left in Israel are therefore second-class citizens in a jewish nation.

2. Oh yes it's been jewish land for millenia, but refresh my memory, was it not the arabs living there BEFORE Moses led the israelites out of Egypt. If we go by the first come first serve theory, then the israelis came later and therefore should vacate that land( see the absurdity behind that arguement, which is the only legitimacy the israeli state relies on).

3. You see, you brand the arabs as a separate kind, but just take a look at which area Israel is situated in, then take a gander at the colour of the skin of the average Israeli. Then tell me by what warped notion you have come up with the arguement that the palestinians don't belong there.

4. Yes genocide of the philistines as commanded in the torah is a legitimate way of acquiring land. By the way, pardon me if i don't buy into that arguement.

5. Jerusalem is not only holy to jews, but to christians and muslims as well. Yet somehow that always gets overlooked when discussing israeli policy....

My advice would be, don't hold any romantic notions, nobody deserves anything by privalege of birth or something as superficial as religion. Just because the jews got dealt a bad hand historically does not entitle to some kind of consolation prize by forcing palestinians out of their homes. Then they are no better than Nazi's. They deserve nothing if it entails denying the humanity of another community, and a vastly larger one at that.

Dark Exodus

23rd August 2005, 17:12

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 07:27 PM
I was going to aks about that weaponry comment but I forgot. I'm glad you mentioned it again.

If the Israelis were the ones with the AK-47s and homemade expolsives would you support their cause over the palestinian cause assuming that the Palestinians were getting US aid. This is also assuming that the Palestinians are the nationless refugees and the Israelis are the dominant group of the region.
That depends if they were still letting dogs into mosques, snipig children in classrooms and breaking peoples arems with bricks. But then the Palestinians would not exactly be hospitable.

Their is a difference between outdates small arms and nukes, tanks etc. though, with one you can try to fight, and possibly win depending on yourself and your opponent. With another you can wipe a large city off the face of the Earth and defeat anyone wealding AK's. (AK/small arms being a metaphor for poor training as well)

bur372

23rd August 2005, 17:31

All you you seem to forget that zionisim is left wing and secular. Israel was created for the jewish race (people descended from jews) rather than a holy land. It was created as a place the jews could fell safe they had been persecuted for 2000 years.

Israel shoud have a unconditional withdrawel from gaza and the west bank no military should be there without the permission of the palenstinian goverment. setllers can stay in gaza + west bank but must adhere to palenstian law + taxes and cannot stop intergrtion with the palestinians. jerusalem should be made into its its own country or a UN zone. once or twice a year the palestian and israeli goverments must meet together to ensure strong ties between the two countries.

Once this is done there will be conflict which will overide all politics. Israel will get rid of the conservitives and go back to being a nice little socialist country and palestian will get rid of the coruupt PA and have a proper goverment.

viva le revolution

23rd August 2005, 23:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 04:49 PM
All you you seem to forget that zionisim is left wing and secular. Israel was created for the jewish race (people descended from jews) rather than a holy land. It was created as a place the jews could fell safe they had been persecuted for 2000 years.

Israel shoud have a unconditional withdrawel from gaza and the west bank no military should be there without the permission of the palenstinian goverment. setllers can stay in gaza + west bank but must adhere to palenstian law + taxes and cannot stop intergrtion with the palestinians. jerusalem should be made into its its own country or a UN zone. once or twice a year the palestian and israeli goverments must meet together to ensure strong ties between the two countries.

Once this is done there will be conflict which will overide all politics. Israel will get rid of the conservitives and go back to being a nice little socialist country and palestian will get rid of the coruupt PA and have a proper goverment.
1. Zionism was founded as a secular movement, but is not anymore.

2. The gaza strip and the West bank should be clear of ALL IDF forces and Iraeli settlers. Since Israel proper does not allow citizenship to gentiles. Let me quote a comparison:
In India, a tribe of three thousand that claimed ancestry from one of the twelve tribes of Israel was granted citizenship and the process of them emigrating to Israel is already underway.
But an Israeli woman who marries a Palestinian man must face separation or expulsion, because the state of Israel does not grant citizenship to palestinians, thus the woman can either live outside Israel or face separation.
See the idiocy of it all, indians are given citizenship, but palestinians living just outside Israel and even married to Israelis are not.

3. As long as Israel exists there cannot be a socialist government, why? because the whole basis for israel's existence lies in religion, and the whole immigration process is not dictated by logic but according to interpretation by rabbis.
As a reaction to this, the palestinians will continue to look to religious parties to protect them from an imminent threat.

as i said before, What is this some sort of consolation prize? persecuted for 2000 years so now have a free go at the Palestinians? force them off their land? No my friend, once they undertake these actions, they are no longer the persecuted but the oppressors. They have nuclear weapons and the strongest conventional military in the middle-east, not to mention 2 billion in arms loans each year from the united states, to top it all, all resolutions calling for immediate action get vetoed by the united states.

bur372

25th August 2005, 12:49

agreed all IDF forces should move out of palestine unless authorised by the palestian goverment. The settlers could stay they would have to adhere to palestian law so most of them probably leave.

The basis of israel's existance is irrevlevent they are there and have been for 60 years.
Also the basis of israel's existance is based on the un mandate. Israel is still secular its just the religous have more power in the goverment. Because of descions by previous goverments.

The strange thing about israel is that its society is diveded into many different tribes your average secular israeli the settlers the orthodox the israeli arabs and the russians. when it comes to palenstian terrorist attacks they think of hamas.

When they think of hamas the isralie arabs lose power (in the knesset) as do the russians mainly because they only speak russian. Thats 40+% of the population political power lost. the secular people think there should be peace with the arabs. and of course thats seems so unpatriotic and the only people left seem to be the orthodox and settlers they seem to be partiotic you can't uestion them.

So basically the right gains loads of power.

when there is peace is the middle east then the right starts to lose power and israel shows its socialist side.

kind of like how the neo-cons are only power when there is some huge threat.

YaelD

25th August 2005, 18:49

well, I haven't read the whole discussion, but there are a few thing I want to say.

a) not all Israeli are fascist whores. yes, there are a lot of those here. but I don't think its fair (that is a real big understatement) to say that I should be transferred because of something that was done by other israelis, befor I was born. what did I do wrong? was it refusing to join the IDF? resking myself to go to demos against the wall? did I breath to much tear gas that was thrown at me by the IDF? stood to close to the live ammunition? to many of my friends are sitting in prison? do I have to many palestinain friends? I just want to understand what I did wrong

b) I believe in a two state solution, not because I think that it's better, but because unlike the one state soultion, it is possible. there is just to much nationalism on both sides, and until that would be possible, it going to take alot of time, many years, two state solution is possible now (if will manage to make Sharon to move his fat ass) and every day of the occupation is suffering, death, hunger and oppression, do you want that on your hand? no? good. support peace now, not latter.

c) there are still a lot of seculars in the Zionist movement, if not more then religious people. it is also not true that they control the Knesset. it's is true that the arabs don't have a lot of power, but the russion have an influence, and they usuly don't have a problem with hebrew. the kennest is very right-wing, but there are also many seculers right wing that are influential (like sharon), I can talk more about the parties in Israel if you like.

peace,
Yael.

Enragé

26th August 2005, 01:49

if i was israeli, i would jump on a plane and get the fuck out of there as soon as possible, or defect to the palestinians if thats in any way possible.

All israelis are settlers.

Jews can stay, but israel must be done away with, and thus there would be no such thing as "an Israeli".

dso79

27th August 2005, 16:48

if i was israeli, i would jump on a plane and get the fuck out of there as soon as possible, or defect to the palestinians if thats in any way possible

By leaving you are actually helping the right-wingers; you can achieve far more by staying and becoming an activist.

Though defecting to the Palestinians is an option, joining an Israeli organisation is a better idea. The Israeli radical left (Gush Shalom, Banki etc) plays an important role in the fight against the occupation.

Kamikaze Gangbang

27th August 2005, 21:56

Israel was created under international law.

Jews went there originally with the encouragement of the locals.

"Palestinian" just means any arab that wants to be a terrorist. the ethnicity doesn't exist. It's false

So Israel comes into being and since they have a clue, their standard of living becomes much higher than the morons around them. This, of course, causes resentment and jealousy.

So Israel is attacked over and over.

Attempts at peace have been made numerous times by Israel but the Arabs just don't want it.

It's on the Arabs now. The Jews have tried.

Organic Revolution

27th August 2005, 21:57

then why were they rioting when the israelis told them to leave?

Kamikaze Gangbang

27th August 2005, 22:03

Originally posted by organic [email protected] 27 2005, 09:15 PM
then why were they rioting when the israelis told them to leave?
wouldn't you be pissed if you were getting kicked oiut of your home?

That just proves the effort the Israelis have made to appease the Arabs and make peace.

THEY WILL EVEN KICK JEWS OUT OF THEIR OWN HOMES TO MAKE PEACE

and you know what?

Some fukken savage will blow up some more innocent Jews once again as a show of gratittude.

Rememeber Rachel corrie? Yeah, that fekking moron who got run over by that bulldozer?

That bulldozeer wasn't about to raze a house, it was moving earth to shut off a tunnel where the Palestinians had been smuggling explosives into Israel! Those tunnels are all over the place!

But of course, the left wing proaganda makes you believe otherwise.

WISE UP!

Ownthink

27th August 2005, 22:21

Originally posted by Kamikaze Gangbang+Aug 27 2005, 05:21 PM--> (Kamikaze Gangbang @ Aug 27 2005, 05:21 PM)
organic [email protected] 27 2005, 09:15 PM
then why were they rioting when the israelis told them to leave?
wouldn't you be pissed if you were getting kicked oiut of your home?

That just proves the effort the Israelis have made to appease the Arabs and make peace.

THEY WILL EVEN KICK JEWS OUT OF THEIR OWN HOMES TO MAKE PEACE

and you know what?

Some fukken savage will blow up some more innocent Jews once again as a show of gratittude.

Rememeber Rachel corrie? Yeah, that fekking moron who got run over by that bulldozer?

That bulldozeer wasn't about to raze a house, it was moving earth to shut off a tunnel where the Palestinians had been smuggling explosives into Israel! Those tunnels are all over the place!

But of course, the left wing proaganda makes you believe otherwise.

WISE UP! [/b]
Ban.

Kamikaze Gangbang

27th August 2005, 22:26

Go ahead and ban me. I'll just come back with a proxy!
:D

debate me, if you dare!

Ownthink

27th August 2005, 22:28

Originally posted by Kamikaze [email protected] 27 2005, 05:44 PM
Go ahead and ban me. I'll just come back with a proxy!
:D

debate me, if you dare!
Ban is fine.

Kamikaze Gangbang

27th August 2005, 22:30

typical commie. when confronted with the TRUTH, he wants to be a fascist and repress free speech.

who's the fascist????!!!!!!!

YOU ARE!!!!!

:D

Intifada

28th August 2005, 12:51

(The following quotes are that of an idiotic Zionist fuckwit)

wouldn't you be pissed if you were getting kicked oiut of your home?

Yes.

No wonder so many Palestinians are pissed off with the Israelis who illegally occupy Palestinian land, while humiliating and attacking them day after day.

Those ultra-Zionist fanatics who have been removed from their illegal settlements in the Gaza Strip have no sympathy from me. They are the same people who made the lives of Palestinians unbearable.

That just proves the effort the Israelis have made to appease the Arabs and make peace.

I see you are referring to the withdrawal from the Occupied Palestinian Territories... I mean the Gaza Strip.

That is not an effort to make peace, it is a ruse on Sharon's behalf: Withdraw from the Gaza Strip (though, do not let the Palestinians control the borders, airspace or coastline), let everybody believe we are being really nice to the Palestinians, yet keep the West Bank and East Jerusalem, while we perpetuate the illegal settlements there, while seizing more Palestinian land, and undermining any hopes of a viable Palestinian state.

It is, as usual, yet another ploy by the Zionists to make the world believe that they want a just peace with the Palestinian people.

Some fukken savage will blow up some more innocent Jews once again as a show of gratittude.

Yes, suicide bombing.

A phenomenon that took hold in the Occupied Territories 27 years after the illegal occupation of the remaining 22% of historic Palestine began.

The occupation has created a life of misery and hopelessness for the Palestinian people, who have nothing to live for, and as a result, nothing to lose.

The influence of extremism is great, simply because they have a huge sea of desperate people, ready to be indoctrinated into being willing to blow themselves up in order to gain "revenge."

The studies of Professor Robert Pape, of the University of Chicago, on terrorism since 1980 makes good reading.

Rememeber Rachel corrie? Yeah, that fekking moron who got run over by that bulldozer?

That bulldozeer wasn't about to raze a house, it was moving earth to shut off a tunnel where the Palestinians had been smuggling explosives into Israel! Those tunnels are all over the place!

Of course, that is the story of the Israeli Occupation Forces.

What about the likes of Tom Hurndall and James Miller?

What did they do wrong to be murdered by the Israeli occupiers?

Take a tip from yourself and "WISE UP!"

YaelD

28th August 2005, 14:20

Originally posted by Kamikaze Gangbang+Aug 27 2005, 09:21 PM--> (Kamikaze Gangbang @ Aug 27 2005, 09:21 PM)
organic [email protected] 27 2005, 09:15 PM
then why were they rioting when the israelis told them to leave?
wouldn't you be pissed if you were getting kicked oiut of your home?

That just proves the effort the Israelis have made to appease the Arabs and make peace.

THEY WILL EVEN KICK JEWS OUT OF THEIR OWN HOMES TO MAKE PEACE

and you know what?

Some fukken savage will blow up some more innocent Jews once again as a show of gratittude.

Rememeber Rachel corrie? Yeah, that fekking moron who got run over by that bulldozer?

That bulldozeer wasn't about to raze a house, it was moving earth to shut off a tunnel where the Palestinians had been smuggling explosives into Israel! Those tunnels are all over the place!

But of course, the left wing proaganda makes you believe otherwise.

WISE UP! [/b]
Lies Lies Lies.

the left wing propganda?

the IDF was Coght lying many times. some of them he even admit. when did the left lied? I went to palestain. I've been in demonstrations. I heard them lie. or am I also a liar? maybe this is just a left wing propganda.... ooo...

And who dare you say that shit about Rachel Cori?!

the child in me whant's to tell you :P
But I'll get pass that.

p.s - to the guy that want me out of my home - I can do more for freedom and peace here than abroad. you don't like that I said Israeli? fine, call me a jew that lives in palestine. whatever. I'm all up for living in the same contry with palestinians. I really wouldn't mind if it will be called Palestine. you can call it Balogkfdnbkjbvjrbjh for all I care. I AM NOT A ZIONIST. I AM AN ANTI ZIONIST. get that into your head.

Phalanx

29th August 2005, 01:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 01:07 AM
All israelis are settlers.

You're right, but so are Palestinians, Ugandans, Italians, Paraguayans, and any other human living on Earth. It just so happens that 70% of all Israeli Jews were born in Israel. Yes, many of their parents were settlers, but are you going to punish one for their father's sin? Besides, many Jews were being killed in riots after WWII, namely Poland, Morocco, and Yemen. I'm not saying Zionism is correct, I'm saying that's why people moved to Israel/Palestine/whatever you want to call the fucking place. The whole conflict is stupid, and taking sides to it will further inflame the situation. Until we can learn of forgiveness, we are destined to destroy ourselves in a hateful and meaningless conflict. That's right meaningless conflict!

bombeverything

29th August 2005, 01:32

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 29 2005, 12:18 AM
You're right, but so are Palestinians, Ugandans, Italians, Paraguayans, and any other human living on Earth. It just so happens that 70% of all Israeli Jews were born in Israel. Yes, many of their parents were settlers, but are you going to punish one for their father's sin? Besides, many Jews were being killed in riots after WWII, namely Poland, Morocco, and Yemen. I'm not saying Zionism is correct, I'm saying that's why people moved to Israel/Palestine/whatever you want to call the fucking place. The whole conflict is stupid, and taking sides to it will further inflame the situation. Until we can learn of forgiveness, we are destined to destroy ourselves in a hateful and meaningless conflict. That's right meaningless conflict!

It is not a "meaningless conflict" for the people actually involved in it. Simply dismissing the conflict as "stupid" is ignorant, naive and insulting. The Palestinians are fighting for restitution for past wrongs. Until this is achieved, "forgiveness" is impossible.

novemba

29th August 2005, 02:57

call me a fascist, everyone can't be a saint.

but if I find any of you trolls you better pull up your pants and run.

and you KNOW what I mean

watch yoself

Phalanx

29th August 2005, 17:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 12:50 AM
It is not a "meaningless conflict" for the people actually involved in it. Simply dismissing the conflict as "stupid" is ignorant, naive and insulting. The Palestinians are fighting for restitution for past wrongs. Until this is achieved, "forgiveness" is impossible.
Yes it is a meaningless conflict. One side bombs another with a person wearing a belt, the other side drops a bomb with an airplane. It is an endless cycle that will continue for eternity. No, I'm not being naive or ignorant, I'm just sick of seeing my brothers killing each other. I'm not asking for anyone to be a saint, I'm just asking them to stop killing each other for the sake of territory.

EagleEyeNuÃ±ez

29th August 2005, 17:42

I have studied the Rachel Corrie photos. The bulldozer was not very close to a house, it was moving dirt. That was twisted by the left as propaganda so gullible people will be outraged and fight the power. It's all propaganda by the left. Once you start to recognize it you realize that it is everywhere.

Rachel Corrie was a terrorist and a hate monger.

Intifada

29th August 2005, 17:47

Originally posted by Chinghis Khan+Aug 29 2005, 04:53 PM--> (Chinghis Khan @ Aug 29 2005, 04:53 PM)
[email protected] 29 2005, 12:50 AM
It is not a "meaningless conflict" for the people actually involved in it. Simply dismissing the conflict as "stupid" is ignorant, naive and insulting. The Palestinians are fighting for restitution for past wrongs. Until this is achieved, "forgiveness" is impossible.
Yes it is a meaningless conflict. One side bombs another with a person wearing a belt, the other side drops a bomb with an airplane. It is an endless cycle that will continue for eternity. No, I'm not being naive or ignorant, I'm just sick of seeing my brothers killing each other. I'm not asking for anyone to be a saint, I'm just asking them to stop killing each other for the sake of territory. [/b]
I can understand your sentiments regarding the violence between Israel and the Palestinians.

The fact remains, however, that the Palestinian people are being persecuted and oppressed by the state of Israel. They have every right to resist that aggression, in a legitimate fashion.

Dr. Martin Luther King once said that "peace is not merely the absence of tension, but the presence of justice."

Once the Palestinians are given true justice, through either a violent or peaceful uprising, preferrably with the unity of the working-class of both peoples, there will be no peace between the two peoples, who are really all just human beings.

That is why I am completely behind the struggle for Palestinian freedom. It is a pre-requisite for any just peace settlement.

EagleEyeNuÃ±ez

29th August 2005, 17:54

The only thing that makes somebody a Palestinian is a hatred of Jews. There is no Palestinian state, it's just a collection of Jew-hating Arabs. Do your research. When you do, you will see the propaganda for what it is.

Intifada

29th August 2005, 17:59

Originally posted by EagleEyeNuñ[email protected] 29 2005, 05:12 PM
The only thing that makes somebody a Palestinian is a hatred of Jews.
I think that this statement proves to me that you are an idiot at best, and that you are not worth responding to.

Typical Zionist I suppose.

Phalanx

29th August 2005, 18:06

No, he is not a mere Zionist, I can't even describe his hatred. Well, he will be banned in about 2 minutes. Fuck you, scumbag. People like you divide humanity and try to send it towards a destruction path. (Sorry Intifada, it wasn't directed at you, but at EagleEye****face.)

EagleEyeNuÃ±ez

29th August 2005, 18:21

Originally posted by Intifada+Aug 29 2005, 05:17 PM--> (Intifada @ Aug 29 2005, 05:17 PM)
EagleEyeNuñ[email protected] 29 2005, 05:12 PM
The only thing that makes somebody a Palestinian is a hatred of Jews.
I think that this statement proves to me that you are an idiot at best, and that you are not worth responding to.

Typical Zionist I suppose. [/b]
I'm not a Zionist. I do not support the formation of Israel in the first place.

BUT, since it's been there for 50+ years and it's NOT GOING ANYWHERE, enough is enough, wouldn't you say?

The Palestinians need a leader who will do them right, period.

This struggle shit over the "holy land" is ludicrous.

EagleEyeNuÃ±ez

29th August 2005, 18:24

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 29 2005, 05:24 PM
No, he is not a mere Zionist, I can't even describe his hatred. Well, he will be banned in about 2 minutes. Fuck you, scumbag. People like you divide humanity and try to send it towards a destruction path. (Sorry Intifada, it wasn't directed at you, but at EagleEye****face.)
How cute. Hysterics. :D

Of course I'll be banned. If I say anything against the lies I will be banned. par for the course in left wing circles. Your house of cards comes tumbling down sooooo easily you have to repress the truth or you will lose recruits.

The Palestinians are the destructive ones.

Intifada

29th August 2005, 18:26

BUT, since it's been there for 50+ years and it's NOT GOING ANYWHERE, enough is enough, wouldn't you say?

I do not wish for the destruction of Israel.

I wish for justice for the Palestinians.

The PLO, under Arafat, recognised Israel's right to exist in 1988. All they want is 22% of the Occupied (historic) Palestinian Territories in which they can live in freedom.

This struggle shit over the "holy land" is ludicrous.

Too right, and it won't stop until Israel ends the illegal occupation of Palestine.

Phalanx

29th August 2005, 18:34

Originally posted by EagleEyeNuñ[email protected] 29 2005, 05:42 PM
How cute. Hysterics. :D

Of course I'll be banned. If I say anything against the lies I will be banned. par for the course in left wing circles. Your house of cards comes tumbling down sooooo easily you have to repress the truth or you will lose recruits.

The Palestinians are the destructive ones.
There is no such thing as hysteria when it comes to racism. All racism must be stamped out however brutally.

TalMarsh

29th August 2005, 18:51

'Intifada' - I couldn't figure out whether you support Palestinian terror acts?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is far more complicated than some people take it here.

It about 100 years of history (and 38 of Israeli occupation).

So is the story of the Jewish state and its establishment.

On these days we're seeing the first moves in about a decade towards a solution of the conflict - with the removal of 8,000 settlers from the Gaza strip.
While this is unfolding, Israeli government has yet to have really given up the occupation - perpetuating the cycle of death.
[Now, you may see religious settlers and other leaders crying on your TV screens (and believe me, more than plenty of it here) it is only a well executed publicity scheme to sway public opinion to the settlers hands.]

While the Palestinians' life are far worse in all respects - the situation in Israel isn't far better off - hundreds of thousands live in poverty, unemployment may be decreasing but labour has never (or so I reckon) been in such a worse state. Along with the other regular ailments of a capitalist society (privatization of large industries, health, education - and generally what ever the bastards put their hands on).
For the past few decades (3 or so) it is been the truth that most of Israel's proletariat has sided with right wing parties because of nationalistic fanatic and religious views and with no real thought to social agenda.

/rant/TalMarsh @ Tel Aviv, Israel.

Intifada

29th August 2005, 20:27

'Intifada' - I couldn't figure out whether you support Palestinian terror acts?

Well, here is the answer:

I do not support any form of terrorism and the targeting of innocents.

If I supported Palestinian terrorism, I would be as bad as the apologists of the illegal Zionist occupation.

I do, however, understand the cause of such acts of Palestinian terror. The Israeli occupation is the root of all the violence.

On these days we're seeing the first moves in about a decade towards a solution of the conflict

I wouldn't call it a "solution" to the conflict, but a ruse on Sharon's behalf. I do, however, see that you recognise that.

While the Palestinians' life are far worse in all respects - the situation in Israel isn't far better off - hundreds of thousands live in poverty, unemployment may be decreasing but labour has never (or so I reckon) been in such a worse state. Along with the other regular ailments of a capitalist society (privatization of large industries, health, education - and generally what ever the bastards put their hands on).

That is the problem, and the solution is the unity of the Palestinian and Israeli working-class. Only then can true peace prevail.

TalMarsh

29th August 2005, 20:41

However one sided and blind the removal of these settlements by Sharon, many of the "pro-peace leftists", including myself, see it as a start of the end for the occupation - and a refute to those many who claimed that removal of settlements is not possible.
I choose to take strength from this move, however fallible may be they way it was portrayed and everything surrounding it (from some strengthing of other settlements and continuation of the construction of the apartheid wall separating Israelis and Palastinians from peace).

bombeverything

31st August 2005, 07:58

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 29 2005, 04:53 PM
Yes it is a meaningless conflict. One side bombs another with a person wearing a belt, the other side drops a bomb with an airplane. It is an endless cycle that will continue for eternity. No, I'm not being naive or ignorant, I'm just sick of seeing my brothers killing each other. I'm not asking for anyone to be a saint, I'm just asking them to stop killing each other for the sake of territory.

When you ignore the reasons behind the violence your arguments are based on emotion, not reason.