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Pyro Kittens
19th August 2005, 04:43
This is something I have been working on for a while, tell me what you think.

All items, physical, intellectual, or otherwise owned by the people shall be provided by the government which in turn has bought said items from corporations. People shall not be issued currency, only corporations.

With regards to international trade, a company may export their product with at least 30% tariffs as not to allow people in the nation to be subjected to slave labor. Items wished to be purchased out of the nation from a person within the nation must be approved by the government in less than 3 hrs. People visiting the nation, who must have a visitors visa, may buy products with out working and shall be issued person specific currency, as not to allow people living in the nation to have a currency, that has equal value to the currency the person entering the nation has with him/her.

At least 3% of the market must be taken up by "arts" jobs. People may request transfers from their current employer to another or from their line of work to another. The request must be accepted by the government at least 20% of the time that you ask. A person may only ask to change employer/profession once a year. A person can have their profession changed by the government every three years. The persons making the decisions with regards to job change cannot be those whom are employing you.

If you wish to start your own corporation, you must pass through a government process to deem you fit to manage a business, and if the business could benefit the economy. Those who wish to start a corporation shall have all necessary products to start said corporation. Those who cannot work because of mental defect or physical defect shall be given sleeping and living quarters and food equivalent to that of the average standard of living of the population. The average standard of living being defined as the average size of a house in feet squared, and the average disposable income. If they have worked in the past shall be able to retain all of their possessions. People who refuse to work shall be given food and food alone, and if they have worked in the past, all of their possessions shall be repossessed by the government. After an age to be defined by law, you are no longer required to work. The government shall review your health, mental or otherwise, in the form of a trial, to determine weather you can work or not. During the time that you are being reviewed by the government, none of your possessions may be repossessed.

The more productive you are at work the higher quality, and higher quantity of items you can request the government to issue you. Productivity defined by the government, not you employer. This does not necessarily mean that the quantity of work does or does not play a factor in the government supplied items. The government cannot reassign more than 1/500 of the population a month, however regional government may, regional government being defined as the governors, elected, in the time allotted by, the people to be determined by regional law and the regional senate of three to be elected, in the time allotted by, by the people to be determined by regional law.


The market must be taken up by 40% small businesses, a small business being defined as a company that holds less than or equal to 1/1000th of the market. The market being defined as all trade. A single market being defined as one specific area of trade. No one company can dominate a single market. A single market must consist of two or more large businesses. The government must buy, for the people, from every corporation. The government must tax all products bought by no less than 25%.

The previous six paragraphs, because they have to do with the economy which is constantly in flux, is to be opened to revision every five years, any revisions suggested must have the majority of house votes, must be approved by the council and must be ratified by the people.

When ever a change is to be made in your company's dynamics in any way you must send in your proposed change to a board of review which must respond promptly as to weather you may or may not make the suggested change. There shall be a board of review for each city for city business matter, for each region for regional business matters, and country for national business matters.

The governor, with the approval of the senate, will appoint advisors to assist in the running of the region. Free education shall be provided for people up through the age of 22, and shall be considered a job where productivity is measured by the quality of work done. Education after the age of 22 can be either given to you by the government after a review process, or may be bought. The government cannot censor any information provided through education.

The government will be made up of a ruling council of three and three houses of representatives. The three houses of representatives and the ruling council shall be elected by the people with members of the council being at least 32 and being a citizen from birth, and members of each of the houses being at least 25 and being a citizen for at least nine years. Three people from each region of the nation shall be elected by the people every year, one for each House of Representatives, and a national popular vote will decide the election of the ruling council every year. You can run for either the council or the houses as many times as you like. No campaign contributions may be made by corporations to any candidates campaign. If, for any reason, a person is not able to fulfill his or her time in office, the empty slot is to be filled through elections, and the person filling in shall remain in office for the duration of the term served.

After voting on a subject, each house will have one vote, based on how the representatives voted, in weather the subject is passed, if the majority of the house votes are for passing a subject, the subject is passed to the council for approval. The ruling council of three may veto this majority vote. The councils veto may be overturned if the house votes are unanimous to overturn. Any proposal that is to be voted on by the three houses must be proposed by a member of one of the houses and seconded by two members of each house, before going to vote.

Any and all public officials must be elected by the people including but not limited to the ministers to assist the council and houses of representatives in the running of the nation. A proposal must be pertaining to that of law, and not the enforcement of. The enforcement and implementation of the laws, and nothing more, is vested in judges to be voted in by regions as to be defined by regional law.

For issues pertaining to the entire nation, the issue and argument shall be brought before a high court panel of judges to be elected by each region the judge represents. Each judge represents a region of the nation. The ruling council decides any foreign and internal affairs once permission is given to them to decide by the houses. Any issue pertaining to this document must be reviewed and judgment passed by a panel of 15 judges. This document may be revised if first, the three house votes are unanimously in favor of suggested revision, revision must be proposed by a member of one of the houses and seconded by five members of each house, then, the council votes are unanimously in favor of suggested revision, and then the people vote 2/3 in favor of the suggested revision.

There is to be a separate entity from the state for the carrying out of the law. This entity shall respect the laws of the government, but will carry them out to their own satisfaction. The court system is to be part of the government. This separate entity, the law enforcement, cannot have any ties to the government whatsoever. There is to be a ruling council of three for law enforcement. The military may not act as any kind of law enforcement. Law enforcement can act without the permission of the government, and can ignore government requests. The prison system is part of the government, no the law enforcement.

A court system shall be constructed that is as follows. Each city and region shall have its own court system that is to deal only with issues and specific laws pertaining to that city or region. The nation shall have a court that is to only deal with issues and specific laws pertaining to the entire nation. The high court shall exist to try cases that require an interpretation of the law.

With regards to children's labor: any child wanting to start a small business that requires less than 10 hours of labor a week is allowed as long as local government is notified. Once a child is 16 he or she is able to work 25 hrs a week is their own business or for another business. A child who creates their own business may sell their products or their effort in return for objects, or may do so in order to get work experience. A child who is working for someone else will be given items from the government depending on how productive they are.

The ability of any person living in the nation to express his or her thoughts in any form shall not be denied.

No free person can be discriminated against by the government for any reason and the government cannot endorse any such discrimination, free being any person who has not been convicted of a high crime, a high crime being defined by law.

No law or governmental act shall respect nor prohibit any established religion or religions in any including, but not limited to religious references by government officials.

Any person living in the nation has a right to privacy, privacy being open to interpretation of the high court.

Anyone facing criminal prosecution must be convicted by a jury to be randomly selected from the population.

Anyone can protect their possessions and their self.

A parent, no matter any orientation, religious or otherwise, must do what is in the best interest of their child's health, physical or otherwise.

The slavery of humans is illegal.

The government has an obligation to protect any people with in the borders of the nation.

The government is not to prohibit anything or any action that does not affect anybody but the adults that consent to be a member to whatever actions they might wish to participate in.

An adult is any person over the age of 25.

Any adult that has not been convicted or associated in a crime may possess small weaponry.

JKP
19th August 2005, 04:52
What you are describing is not a communist society.

STABD
19th August 2005, 05:47
this goverment that you have alowed is way to powerfull even for socialism

Pyro Kittens
19th August 2005, 05:56
oops, double post!

Pyro Kittens
19th August 2005, 06:07
Which is why everyone is elected every year, do they need to be more often?

Amor caecus est
19th August 2005, 06:36
that sounds really good but if you want to reach the uneducated masses you must make it short enough for their attention spans

Moonfire
19th August 2005, 06:36
Originally posted by Pyro [email protected] 19 2005, 05:25 AM
Which is why everyone is elected every year, do they need to be more often?
No its just that there should be no leaders elected. All issues should be voted on completely democratically.

I think thats how it is anyway, somebody correct me if im wrong.

Clarksist
19th August 2005, 07:00
No its just that there should be no leaders elected. All issues should be voted on completely democratically.

I think thats how it is anyway, somebody correct me if im wrong.


That, or have a more reasonable representative system set up, where people are immediately recallable if they displease the public.

STABD
19th August 2005, 07:14
if being aplied to a country i dont think it should be a complete democracy, somtimes the minority must get protected from the majority. i just dont like how said goverment would be so controling of the peopel, its in some ways worse then capitalism because at least with that u can switch jobs at will, theres a posibility u will starve but at least u wont be breaking the law or be targeted by your goverment. or maybe i just mis read what u meant

STABD
19th August 2005, 07:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 06:21 AM
What if a capitalist runs for office and gets elected?
why would a a functioning society change its ways for opresion. they will be able to see how much better there system is, it would be hard to convince some one that they should give part of there production in exchange for absolutly nothing if there needs are being met.

STABD
19th August 2005, 07:28
who would elect a open capitalist, and if he/she is a lier he will be kicked out of office

anomaly
19th August 2005, 07:45
This 'Constitution' does not describe a society in which the state has withered away (you mention the state in the very beginning!). You also mention corporations, which won't exist in communism.

You cannot make any constitution for communism. The people of one particular commune shall make a constitution for that commune and that one alone. The idea of 'pretending' to make a 'communist' constitution seems pretty pointless.

CompaneroDeLibertad, what do you suggest using instead of 'bourgeois' elections in socialism? What would the state, in your opinion, look like?

STABD
19th August 2005, 07:47
the peopel, they vote on such an isue, if they belive capitalist values are being reinstated then they will vote to have them removed, if that is what they desire.

bunk
19th August 2005, 07:56
Any constitution or bill must be made by the population of the time and constantly updated by new generations.

anomaly
19th August 2005, 08:09
Again, you describe a state quite clearly in that 'constitution' so it cannot be considered a 'communist' one.

redstar2000
19th August 2005, 10:29
I edited the thread title because this doesn't really have anything to do with communism.

Even if it did, the whole idea of writing a constitution now for a social order that can't be less than 50-100 years in the future is a dubious proposition at best.

And note that he raises the age of "adulthood" to 25! :o

I'm going to move this thread to the Learning forum.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Pyro Kittens
19th August 2005, 17:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 07:03 AM
This 'Constitution' does not describe a society in which the state has withered away (you mention the state in the very beginning!). You also mention corporations, which won't exist in communism.

You cannot make any constitution for communism. The people of one particular commune shall make a constitution for that commune and that one alone. The idea of 'pretending' to make a 'communist' constitution seems pretty pointless.
Forgive me if I am wrong but the point of communism is that you all work for the greater good, and that either is an anarchy or has a strong government and if it has a strong government the government compleatly controls the economy. For example, the largest actual communism in the world was the midwest during the depression because everyone was willing to share. Now, unfortunately there has been no actual communism by practise and by name as a government in the world so I cannot use an example there. Anyway, if this is not a communism then I think we are using two different definations, I would be glad to hear yours!

Enragé
19th August 2005, 18:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 06:40 AM
It's really not communism what so-ever, as in communism there would be no "government".

I was just pointing out the flaw of bourgeois elections. Or are you going to have a law preventing capitalists from running? Who will enforce it? What if someone runs as a communist and then reinstates capitalism?
ok:
a capitalist-elected-fuck would introduce free market reforms, making the people loose control over the economy...well the people wouldnt like that, and they therefore would recall him and put someone else in his position

PROBLEM SOLVED.

Enragé
20th August 2005, 15:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 06:12 AM
Sort of a harsh method of debate ay?

If he was elected then maybe they want capitalist reforms?

Capitalist roaders even emerge in democratic-centralist parties, what makes you wouldn't think they would emerge in a society where anyone can run for office?
why would the people want to:
-reduce their power
-bring back exploitation

??

Enragé
20th August 2005, 21:17
geez "leninist anarchist" isnt serious, its like writing born to kill with a peace sign underneath it...perhaps i should change it if people dont get it.

Secondly, as Kropotkin said,

"In order that the revolution should be something more than a word, in order that the reaction should not lead us back tomorrow to the situation of yesterday, the conquest of today must be worth the trouble of defending; the poor of yesterday must be worth the trouble of defending; the poor of yesterday must not be poor tomorrow."

When the people are involved in the struggle, and they see why, how and for what it is fought and they feel the impact of it on their everyday lives, then NO ONE will desire for capitalism to return.

And even if capitalism would return, it cannot stay. When the people is in control of everything, including the economy, capitalism cannot exist. And the people will never allow their influence on everyday life to be diminished.

ÑóẊîöʼn
20th August 2005, 23:52
First, I have a few problems with idea of a constitution in the first place - Firstly, it reduces law to the level of 'holy scripture' with different interpretations being debated endlessly to no avail when it's simpler to adopt a new legal procedure to reflect changing material and social conditions, which leads on to my next point - it is almost impossible to plan for the future with a constitution, as who knows what disagreements and conditions could pop up in the future? by setting things in stone with a constitution, you are effectively tying your hands when something comes up. Not good.

Now, on to this example:


All items, physical, intellectual, or otherwise owned by the people shall be provided by the government which in turn has bought said items from corporations. People shall not be issued currency, only corporations.

You do realise that by doing this you are placing yourself at the mercy of these corporations?

Not only that, but what if an individual were to start a business and use that 'business' to obtain money for their own personal use? This is the first loophole, easily exploited.


With regards to international trade, a company may export their product with at least 30% tariffs as not to allow people in the nation to be subjected to slave labor.

Then they will move out and you will lose out.


Items wished to be purchased out of the nation from a person within the nation must be approved by the government in less than 3 hrs.

More bureaucracy, plus who gets to 'approve' items and why?


People visiting the nation, who must have a visitors visa, may buy products with out working and shall be issued person specific currency, as not to allow people living in the nation to have a currency, that has equal value to the currency the person entering the nation has with him/her.

At least you'll get rich tourists, although now doubt there's an exploit here too.


At least 3% of the market must be taken up by "arts" jobs.

Why?


The request must be accepted by the government at least 20% of the time that you ask.

Even more bureaucracy. and again, who decides and why?


A person may only ask to change employer/profession once a year. A person can have their profession changed by the government every three years.

Why the limitation? and why have different standards for public and private sector work?


The persons making the decisions with regards to job change cannot be those whom are employing you.

So if I work for 'the government' as you so nebulously put it, who decides about my transfer?


If you wish to start your own corporation, you must pass through a government process to deem you fit to manage a business, and if the business could benefit the economy.

Yet more bureaucracy. Do you intend to get anything done in this future society of yours?


Those who wish to start a corporation shall have all necessary products to start said corporation.

But getting those products requires investment in the first place, and how can you be sure you're not wasting your time when the government vetting process is so bureaucratic?

Now you see why I don't like socialism? It simply replaces the tyranny of capital with the tyranny of the state.

Enragé
21st August 2005, 00:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 09:48 PM
Man you should have gave that quote to the CC of the USSR! It would have saved everything!
seriously, it might've. A people truly convinced of its cause and what that cause is, is a very potent force.

Enragé
21st August 2005, 14:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 07:17 AM
The only flaw in your idealism is material reality.
thats what capitalists always say about marxism.