Basis of Communism

[CheMN]

I study and read about government and politics, I always find that communism at its base is the best type of government. But the problem is people do not want to be fair or equal. Add they're right, in a sense. In society we each have different jobs that are each important in different ways. However the pay system of many of these jobs should be changed. Communism could work if the government that controlled it were a just one that made every person equal however give deach person their own job without the consent of the people. We just have never had a real just government, the temtation of power is too much for people to resist. I feel that a computer with the mindset for communism would be the best way to for communism to work because humanity will always be corrupted by power, it's just our nature. But a computer has no motive of it's own, it has nothing to gain.

[violencia.Proletariat]

there is no money, there is no government. i dont really get what you are trying to say with this thread. in communism, everyone would work 3-4-5 hours a day doing productive work, so that EVERYONE has their basic needs taken care of. the rest of the day goes to whatever the individual wants to do. i dont understand why you need a computer to do any of this :huh:

[Clarksist]

We just have never had a real just government, the temtation of power is too much for people to resist.


Well, that's why Communism would work. Everyone has equal power.

There is no temptation as democracy is hard to corrupt when there is no money. The only temptationor bribery would be sex. But to make a significant swing of votes you'd have to fuck a LOT. And after four or five people, you've earned it. :D

I think you might need to read a bit more into communism, and get more of a feel for the general theory.

[Sihvyl]

I think I understand where he's coming from. Think about the surgeon who went through years of education, and saves peoples lives all the time with his skills. While the surgeon is operating, and losing a patient on his table, he glances over to see the janitor slowing pacing along with his broom, seemingly perfectly content and unburdened and still recieving the full benefits of the communities hard work (like the surgeon saving lives). What happens? Well, I can only offer opinion, but in my opinion, that surgeon is going to think of himself as being cheated, because he works so hard, and studied so long; only to recieve exactly what the laid back-easy jobed janitor is getting for pushing a broom. That surgeons going to want compensation, he might not depending on character and morals, but humans can be very emotional sometimes. How long do you think that surgeon is going to want to perform his tiresome job, when he could very well be a janitor and be just as well off?

[CheMN]

Perhaps I am not clarifying myself. The idea is for the compter to run everything. Not be doing is to say as to be controlling it. Think of it like a pyramid. A.I. would be at the top of the rest of the foundation overseeing it and pushing it in the right direction. Computers have greater capacities for memory than any human being. It would oversee the necessary aspects of society to run correctly. Now this is just my opinion so I don't care if people disagree with me or not but people are like shee that follow a shepard. But the shepard they follow is just another sheep. So why not let them follow the right shepard.

[anomaly]

That idea of a 'ruling computer' seems some technological fascism! Such a concept creates hierarchy, so it can't be considered communist.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 10:09 PM
I think I understand where he's coming from. Think about the surgeon who went through years of education, and saves peoples lives all the time with his skills. While the surgeon is operating, and losing a patient on his table, he glances over to see the janitor slowing pacing along with his broom, seemingly perfectly content and unburdened and still recieving the full benefits of the communities hard work (like the surgeon saving lives). What happens? Well, I can only offer opinion, but in my opinion, that surgeon is going to think of himself as being cheated, because he works so hard, and studied so long; only to recieve exactly what the laid back-easy jobed janitor is getting for pushing a broom. That surgeons going to want compensation, he might not depending on character and morals, but humans can be very emotional sometimes. How long do you think that surgeon is going to want to perform his tiresome job, when he could very well be a janitor and be just as well off?
As I said in a different forum, we must think of communism as a fuzzying of the division of labor. So why would the surgeon not perfom his own custodial tasks? Their will be no person who is 'just' a janitor (there will be no person who is 'just' anything).

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by CheMN
But the problem is people do not want to be fair or equal.

Well, yes and no. It's really a rather complicated problem.

People do tend to compete for prestige in their social groupings; being respected and admired by their peers is a pleasurable sensation. I don't think that communism is going to change that very much.

The matter of "fairness" is more subjective -- any social order that confers greater material well-being to some rather than all is going to be considered "fair" by the people on the sweet side of the equation and "unfair" by the people on the shitty side.

The question of "how hard" this person works compared to "how hard" someone else works might have a theoretically objective answer...but, today, is almost entirely a matter of subjective impression.

Do you imagine that a doctor really "works harder" than a miner, steelworker, construction worker, garbage man, janitor, nurse, or whoever?

How would you measure that?

"Professionals" often argue that they deserve greater compensation because they went to school for additional years...but this does not strike me as a compelling argument. Advanced education is a privilege that most people simply cannot afford. Even a four-year degree is extremely expensive...graduate school of any kind just adds to the burden.

It seems to me that if we are to have differences in material rewards (a dubious proposition in itself), the "extra goodies" should go to people who have the worst jobs. That is, the people who do the boring and physically exhausting "shit jobs" in rotten conditions -- which is to say the people who actually keep society functioning -- should get "first crack" at additional consumer goodies.

The people who have interesting jobs with pleasant working conditions and high prestige should go to the rear of the line...they are already well-rewarded as it is.


...but people are like sheep that follow a shepherd.

As much as it may sometimes look that way, it's actually not true.

People only follow "shepherds" when they see no rational alternative. Communism is precisely such a rational alternative...that's based on the proposition that people are capable of rational self-rule.

This flies in the face of everything we've been told for the last 60 centuries or so about humans and what they can do. Every existing and potential elite despises communism...for good reason.

It would be the end of the line for them.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 03:09 AM
I think I understand where he's coming from. Think about the surgeon who went through years of education, and saves peoples lives all the time with his skills. While the surgeon is operating, and losing a patient on his table, he glances over to see the janitor slowing pacing along with his broom, seemingly perfectly content and unburdened and still recieving the full benefits of the communities hard work (like the surgeon saving lives). What happens? Well, I can only offer opinion, but in my opinion, that surgeon is going to think of himself as being cheated, because he works so hard, and studied so long; only to recieve exactly what the laid back-easy jobed janitor is getting for pushing a broom. That surgeons going to want compensation, he might not depending on character and morals, but humans can be very emotional sometimes. How long do you think that surgeon is going to want to perform his tiresome job, when he could very well be a janitor and be just as well off?
err, the janitor has to clean up puke, blood n other shit...thats not a perfect job either, and well we'll always have the "fuzzying" of jobs (to use the words of some other dude in another thread) so the doctor might be part time janitor, part time doctor

[afnan]

I think the basis of communism is in the transitional period of socialism. This period is the most important in order to create a society fit for communism. This period primarily targets to make situation ready so that the society can evolve in the next phase of communism. Wiping out the elements of bourgeoisie metality of hardcore competition is one such thin. Communism needs a new kind of a man run by cooperation and wanting peace and tranquality for all the people.

[Sihvyl]

How would you measure that?

Thats a good question RS. I guess if I were to put a measurement to the 'hardness' of a job...hmmm, I would say that I would measure it on the severity of not performing that job. Like, if a doctor would fail to save a patient,a life would be lost, or if he failed to properly diagnos and take care of a virus, it could become a wide spread problem in the community. Proffesions like that have big consequences resting on their shoulders. But, if a janitor would fail to clean up where someone had puked, or forgot to clean a restroom stall, the consequences of his failure are far less devistating.

So I guess it would come down to the severity of the responsibility that rest on your shoulders in that given profession....It takes a brave soul to perform jobs like that knowing the consequences that you are willingly accepting that come with it.


It seems to me that if we are to have differences in material rewards (a dubious proposition in itself), the "extra goodies" should go to people who have the worst jobs. That is, the people who do the boring and physically exhausting "shit jobs" in rotten conditions -- which is to say the people who actually keep society functioning -- should get "first crack" at additional consumer goodies.

I like that idea...that could work. Because, someone is eventually going to want some kind of compensation for the "extra" work they do compared to their fellow man. We're human, we're always comparing our living status to everyone around us to see if we're being treated "fair".

Just my $0.02 though. :)