Let's talk about Europe Communists

[icemanpolitik]

Hello everybody,

I'd like to talk about European things.

(for everybody who thinks that communism is over)

Schema:

Italy: The PRC (Refoundated Communist Party): Has a great social respounse, he's inside the syndicates and he will probably participate in a hypotetic goverment with the "olivo" coallitoon (socialdemocrats), with the ministry of work or whatever.

France: The PCF (Communist Party of France), still having a big organization, but , in the elections is not really good. At least, they had a BIG influence in the "NON" of the neoliberalist european constitutional treaty. So they still having some power in the society.

Spain: Communist Party is inside of the "very left" coallition called Izquierda Unida (United Left). He's like the 70% of Izquierda Unida. They are the third more important party of Spain, but they need to grow up a lot. They have the control of the biggest syndicate of the country (CCOO, Comisiones Obreras).

Germany: The post-communist party, PDS, is the most important party of the east of germany, but the east, is very small in population if we compare with the west. They are growing up, and they've just entered in the "The Left", coallition with the WASG (Social Justice Party).

Moldavia: The first ex-sovietic republic with the Communist Party in the goberment. They won the elections (the Moldavia's Communist Party). But, they are a very little country, and the communist party seem very "revisionist", I mean, really very very very revisionist. But, well, at least, that's something.

¿Any more?

[Taiga]

Moldavia: The first ex-sovietic republic with the Communist Party in the goberment. They won the elections (the Moldavia's Communist Party). But, they are a very little country, and the communist party seem very "revisionist", I mean, really very very very revisionist. But, well, at least, that's something.

Please, don't call our ruling party Communust. That's embarrasing.

[icemanpolitik]

Sorry,

I don't know how is really "that" party rulling there. I've read that they want to copy "the european **liberal** economic system" there.

So... it isn't a communist party? What a pitty :(

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 10:42 AM
¿Any more?
I think that it's totally uninteresting how strong these "communist" pseudo-parties are.
They are all enemies of the real communist movement. More interesting to study the strenght of the working class.

Italy is quite interesting. They have a very strong social movment, hundreds of occupied buildings and social centra...a very large non-parliamentary socialist movment.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 02:50 PM

So... it isn't a communist party? What a pitty :(
Only name is Communist. Nothing else. Nada. Shameful.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 11:50 AM
I don't know how is really "that" party rulling there. I've read that they want to copy "the european **liberal** economic system" there.


A communist party would surly dissolve itself once it took power.

Communism is a stateless classless society, so the party to stick to its ideology it would have to begin dissolving the state and classes within the confines of the bourgeois election system.

In short, communist parties are not good things. They are a pathetic waste of time.

Join a real communist group.

[More Fire for the People]

These parties are social-capitalist, socialist in word and capitalist in deed.
Now where do I see revolutionary potential?
Areas of Britian, Belgium, and parts of Italy.

Europe isn't big on revolutionary potential because they are too wrapped up in "democratic socialist" demagouge rather than face reality.

[novemba]

Is the CPF still stalinist?

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 02:29 PM
Is the CPF still stalinist?
Worse, they're reformist.

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by Djehuti+Aug 18 2005, 12:23 PM--> (Djehuti @ Aug 18 2005, 12:23 PM)
[email protected] 18 2005, 10:42 AM
¿Any more?
I think that it's totally uninteresting how strong these "communist" pseudo-parties are.
They are all enemies of the real communist movement. More interesting to study the strenght of the working class.

Italy is quite interesting. They have a very strong social movment, hundreds of occupied buildings and social centra...a very large non-parliamentary socialist movment. [/b]
Which has left the country in control of far right capitalists and reactionaries. Congratulations.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah, They should have elected some bourgeois social-dems instead :rolleyes:

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by CrazyModerate
Which has left the country in control of far right capitalists and reactionaries.

What you seem to be overlooking here is that the European "left" parties follow the same policies as the "far right capitalists and reactionaries".

In fact, that's more and more the case in every advanced capitalist country.

There aren't any "progressive capitalists" any more...and even the trade union apparatus is slowly being sucked into the reactionary morass.

Only those groups which offer a revolutionary alternative -- even if it's "half-assed" and "fucked up" -- have any promise of anything different at all.

Revolutionary alternatives can be improved...the range of "official options" that the ruling class offers us is simply a choice in how we wish to be executed.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[icemanpolitik]

Let's be leninists, let's change all or nothing. Revolution or that fucking world. :D

[Axel1917]

I would argue that pretty much every "communist" and "socialist" party out there is either sectarian, Stalinist, or reformist. I personally like the CMI (their website is marxist.com), and they seem to be one of the only non-sectarian organizations out there. We need to study the methods of the Bolsheviks, get invovled in traditional workers's organizations (history shows that they try to solve things in those organizations. We must go to them, and they will not just come to us, as the sectarians think). Unfortunately, in some places, especially over here in the USA, there is not a traditional workers' party (anyone that thinks critically will realize that the Democrats are a Bourgeois party that don't differ all that much from the Republicans), and the only place is the unions. However, things change and turn into their opposites, and I believe that it is only a matter of time until the unions break with the democrats and form a real traditional workers' party. The people of the world must not be fooled by so many of these "communist" parties, whether they be in Europe, Asia, North America, etc.

[Mephisto86]

I don't think these Parties are reactonary(I'm a member of The Left Party in germany) and I have to say, we can't start a revolution where no revolutionary potential is available. I know also in my Party are also reformists. But these reformists are also fighting for a better world. I fight against reformist positions in my party but i also think we all shold fight together where we can.

And you shouldn't forget these Parties did more for the working class than the little "revolutionary" Parties who are just talking about the revolution but have not the strength to change anything.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 07:40 PM
I don't think these Parties are reactonary(I'm a member of The Left Party in germany) and I have to say, we can't start a revolution where no revolutionary potential is available. I know also in my Party are also reformists. But these reformists are also fighting for a better world. I fight against reformist positions in my party but i also think we all shold fight together where we can.

And you shouldn't forget these Parties did more for the working class than the little "revolutionary" Parties who are just talking about the revolution but have not the strength to change anything.
I never said that they were reactionary, but I feel that a lot of tactics and analytical methods of many parties are flawed. History has shown that sectarianism only leads to problems, mainly splits, in parties. For example, the sectarian CWI have not advanced the revolution one millimeter since the split in The Militant in the early 1990's. We must all start somewhere, and I feel that most of us will eventually get something figured out when good cadres are built, good theory and analysis gaining popularity, etc. Democratic centralism will also play major roles. There have been some good ones in the past, and now we are left with the task of rebuilding a strong, genuine socialist party in today's world. It is going to have to be done, and there are events that are already exterting tremendous force on the left to do as such (Venezuela, for a great example).

I feel that the main flaw that a lot of parties make is to stay away from traditional workers' organizations; workers try to solve things in their organizations, and they are not simply going to come to us. We should enter such traditional organizations to reach out to the workers. Unfortunately, over here in the US, we don't have such a party yet (the Democrats are a Bourgeois party). I believe that the labour unions will split with the Democrats in the future and form such a party over here in the USA.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Mephisto86
And you shouldn't forget these Parties did more for the working class than the little "revolutionary" Parties who are just talking about the revolution but have not the strength to change anything.

Oh? Well, now those parties are busy undoing all those "wonderful" things they "did".

Why is it so difficult to grasp that capitalism is not "reformable" in any significant sense?

And further, why do people continue to try? If you want to know the future of the "Left Party" in Germany, just look at what's happened to the German Greens.

Lots of "bold words" at the beginning; shameful servility at the end.

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[Erebos]

Hi everybody!

Let's talk about Hungary now!
We were a communist country , now we are a capitalist country , and everybody cries back János Kádár. But there are a lot of dictator , and they can't stand the communism , because they are living will well in the capitalism , and they are very very rich. We must fight against people like these! The Commandnate had been killed , and we must punish this , and al the mess what the west made! So there must bu a REVOLUTION! :angry:

[mo7amEd]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 07:40 PM
I don't think these Parties are reactonary(I'm a member of The Left Party in germany) and I have to say, we can't start a revolution where no revolutionary potential is available. I know also in my Party are also reformists. But these reformists are also fighting for a better world. I fight against reformist positions in my party but i also think we all shold fight together where we can.

And you shouldn't forget these Parties did more for the working class than the little "revolutionary" Parties who are just talking about the revolution but have not the strength to change anything.
In that case I should join the left party in Sweden instead of the Communist Party, right? the same left party that IS helping the socialist democratic party of Sweden to cut down on welfare, sell out Gouvernment owned companies and so on.

I don't think so....


________________________
btw, i've been in Bulgaria for two weeks, and thats why i havent been writing anything.

[rebelworker]

I honestly dont kniow anything about the recent split, But the militant was totally fucked!!!!

During the Pole Tax Rebellion when it bacame clear that they did not controll the movement they publicly stated they would help the police round up trouble makers("Name Names"), ie working class militants, many of whome had no previous political affiliation, who defended themselves and their brothers and sisters angains the pigs when the march in London was attacked. Read "The Pole Tax Rebellion" by Danny Burns for an excellent account of probably the strongest radical movment in the industrialized world in the last 20 years.

As for the rest of Europe, The Radical Greens in Germany used to be revolutionary street fighters, Once they joined the Left party in govt they totally sold out, there was even a bit of a crisis when pictures came forward of a cabinet minister beating a policeman at a demo in '68. He denied it.

Electoral politics is a road to failure and compromise with the system.

Here in Canada when the NDP(social democrats with a large socialist caucus) is not in power they make all sorts of promoses, when they get in they are forced to make "sacrafices" to work within the confines of the system, and they beray the workers movments that put them into power. Revolutionaries have to give up on reformist minded electoralism and build grass roots campaigns to challenege the system and empower working people and our communities.

In Solidarity,
rebelworker

[Kez]

What you seem to be overlooking here is that the European "left" parties follow the same policies as the "far right capitalists and reactionaries".


Thats a silly assertion to make, very crude, shallow, and typical of yourself.

You explain that to a working class mother whose got increased benefits under Labour which she knows she wouldnt get under Tories
You explain that to working class person whose ill and knows if the Tories were in they would have difficulty in getting into a hospital which has had as much investment as under Labour
You explain that to a trade unionist who knows his campaign had an effect on increasing the minimum wage, who when he/she looks at Tories sees them attacking unions and saying more restrictions should be applied such as on union organising in airports and other areas of security

Not to say the Labour leadership want these reforms, just to say that theyre forced into it from the party itself, and the Tories wouldnt have these pressures. A clear difference, even at a time when people are politically apathetic than they will be in a few years when the living standards of people decreases.



and even the trade union apparatus is slowly being sucked into the reactionary morass.


-Please look at results across europe of bureacracy losing elections everywhere
-Please look at USA where main unions are breaking with Democrats and are starting political statements on issues such as iraq.
-Please research before making crude, simple statements.



Only those groups which offer a revolutionary alternative -- even if it's "half-assed" and "fucked up" -- have any promise of anything different at all.


What use is this promise to the worker? To connect with the worker we must look through eyes of worker. Who is helping workers most? 'Loons'? or 'Social Democrats'. The latter, therefore they are more attracted to them, hence why we should be prepared to work in these organisatons (be them Parties, Unions or Student Organisations) to get to the workers.

[redstar2000]

Well, well, well, look who just crawled out from beneath his rock of reformism -- the "Labour" party.

No Brazilian "terrorists" to shoot at this week?

No fresh imperialist wars to support?

I figured you were gone for good...but like a moldy piece of green cheese in the back of the refrigerator, here you are again.


Originally posted by Kez
Who is helping workers most?

You know, this must be the fourth or fifth thread this week that someone has thought it necessary to express their desire to "help people".

As if the name of this board was "Charity.com".

It's enough to make a person throw up!

Ok, here it is, nice and slow, so that even you might grasp it.

The purpose of communism is not to "help people". The purpose of communism is liberation from wage-slavery and the seizure of all political power by the masses of working people.

Is that clear? Is there any part of that which you don't understand?

I can't expect you to really agree with such a definition...but at least you should know what you're against.

Compared to you, George Galloway is a flaming revolutionary.

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[Kez]

right, what a great answer old man.

Try answering the rest of the points, in fact, you didnt even answer the one point you decided to blurt out, pathetic.

As revolutionaries, we see the Labour Party wont lead a revolution, and therefore can never secure any wins for the workers on a permanent level. However, not all workers have drawn this conclusion, and therefore can become attracted to such reformist parties like Labour Party (UK), Socialist Party (France, Spain) and Communist Parties (Eastern Europe).

As a result of these actions which workers take (whether old internet re-re-'revolutionaries' like it or not) we must be there with the workers to explain how capitalism wont work, and how only a socialist revolution can firmly attain gains for the workers through ending capitalism.

I hope you can get this into your skull, if not, re-read my previous post where i made it incredibly simple as to why Reformist parties still gain attention and credit to helping the peoples cause (which is clear to all they dont, and actually cant due to capitalist limitations).