An Asshole Asks One Simple Question

[Brokor]

Whenever I ask a person why they support communism, nearly every response has been centered around what was wrong with other political systems, societies in general, or the type of economy they have, but never once has a person who supports communism ever told me why they support communism itself.

And so, I will ask this one simple question:
Why do you support the communist ideology?


I do not want to know what is 'wrong with the world', I do not want to hear about your problems with other political idologies. I only want to know how you see communism as beneficial, and why. Why do you support this ideology?

*Alternative questions you may answer if you feel willing, are as follows*

-Do you know who Moses Hess was?
-Do you know who funded Russia after the fall of the czars?
-Do you know who controls the monetary systems of any or all non third world nations?
-Do you know who funded the French Revolution?
-Do you know who tutored Marx and Engels?
-Do you know how to control the size of a communist government?
-Do you know what would keep a communist government from usurping the masses?


Thank you for your time. :ph34r:

[Brokor]

Dear moderator;

Could you please move this post back to where it was, since it is not a "New to it all" question, because it is aimed at the seasoned 'communist veterans', and I can assure you all, I am well educated on communism.

I am only interested in finding out what makes you silly fucks tick. That's all.

[bunk]

If your well versed, give me a rundown of communism as you know it, that would be the simplest way.

[Brokor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 04:05 PM
If your well versed, give me a rundown of communism as you know it, that would be the simplest way.
I asked the question. Just answer it. My stance matters not, if you cannot even answer me that simple question.

[LSD]

Why do you support the communist ideology?

Because a communist society would bennefit its members more than any alternative model.

Trying to talk about social models with addressing competing theories is like talking about peace without mentioning war. I support communism for the same reason that you support living, it's better than the alternative.

Specifically, it afford greater freedoms, liberties, security, living standards, and rights. It allows people to enjoy their lives far more, it allows them to pursue genuine interests, it dispenses with the superfluous nonesense too rife in class society, and it treats every single member of society as an equal human being worthy or respect.


Do you know what would keep a communist government from usurping the masses?

Do you know how to control the size of a communist government?

A communist society would have no government, that's the nature of communism; stateless.


Do you know who tutored Marx and Engels?

No, nor do I care.


Do you know who Moses Hess was?

19th century zionist socialist, why?


Do you know who controls the monetary systems of any or all non third world nations?

Large corporations mainly, but also bourgeois investors, and yeah, the government plays a signigicant role.


Do you know who funded Russia after the fall of the czars?

Do you know who funded the French Revolution?

What I know is that I don&#39;t like where this seems to be heading. <_<

Revolutionary France was "funded" by the bouregois who lead the revolution. Russia was "funded" by rapid industrialization and the second 5 year plan.

Why, who do you think "funded" them?


Could you please move this post back to where it was, since it is not a "New to it all" question

It didn&#39;t belong in Politics because it had nothing to do with international affairs. It is an elementary question to communists so it stays here.

[Brokor]

Fair enough, Lysergic.

And thank you for your time. I will respond after more have had their chance.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 04:04 PM
I am only interested in finding out what makes you silly fucks tick.
That&#39;s an odd way to put it.

[Martin Blank]

First of all, you should probably be aware that not everyone here who fits into the general description of "revolutionary left" is a communist. Also, among the self-described communists, there are differing views on what communism is and means. Now then,...


Originally posted by Brokor+Aug 17 2005, 11:45 AM--> (Brokor &#064; Aug 17 2005, 11:45 AM)Why do you support the communist ideology?[/b]

Because communism means liberation. It is the end of exploitation, oppression, slavery, war and poverty. Communism is the society of general freedom, and that is the kind of world all people wish we had.

Now then, Brokor. Strap that tinfoil hat on tight....


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:45 AM
-Do you know who Moses Hess was?

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.?


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:45 AM
-Do you know who funded Russia after the fall of the czars?
-Do you know who controls the monetary systems of any or all non third world nations?
-Do you know who funded the French Revolution?

I suppose the real question here is what your answers are to these questions. Here are the choices I see that are apropos to such questions (choose any that apply):

1. The Illuminati
2. The Bildebergers
3. The Freemasons
4. The Rothschilds
5. The Jews
6. The Vatican
7. The Queen of England
6. Aliens from a hidden planet revolving around the Dog Star


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:45 AM
-Do you know who tutored Marx and Engels?

See above for the choices.


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:45 AM
-Do you know how to control the size of a communist government?
-Do you know what would keep a communist government from usurping the masses?

Under communism, which is a stateless and classless society, there is no "government".


[email protected] 17 2005, 11:45 AM
Thank you for your time. :ph34r:

... or the waste thereof. That&#39;s five minutes of my life I&#39;ll never get back.

Miles

[Brokor]

First, "Miles", YOU chose to take the time and post, I didn&#39;t make you. So go cry elsewhere about your childish sense of wasted time.

Second, you didn&#39;t answer a single question, with exception to your "opinion" on what communism is. Even your opinion is tasteless due to the fact that no person can possibly even be free if they do not have the ability to own property. All rights are exercised directly through property ownership, and unfortunately, my little friend -you communists don&#39;t appear to like private property too much. Now, tell me please...who governs you if communism is supposed to be a "classless" and "stateless" society? In every communist society I have ever studied on the planet earth, it has always been the dictatorial military industrial complex.

Please stop wasting your own time, and come up with a better answer, son.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Lysergic Acid: Don&#39;t ignore the details. They are everything.


STILL no answer from all of you red lovers? Man, this must be a tough question, huh?

[CrazyModerate]

You didn&#39;t ask "One Question" you douche.

I support communism because its aim is to allieviate the burdens of the disenfranchised and poor.

Who cares who funded the Russian and French revolutions? I certainly don&#39;t care for either of those countries. In my opinion they have nothing to do with communism. The Soviet Union was an imperialist and state capitalist nation. France is a typical western liberal democratic capitalist nation.

I also don&#39;t care who tutored Marx or Engels. I don&#39;t agree with every word in the communist manifesto. Hell, Marx predicted absolutely massive revolutions before the 1900s and that never happened. Reasonable leftists shouldn&#39;t view Marx as some kind of Messiah or definitive genius.

Even if the "stateless and classless" condition isn&#39;t reached at the time, a socialist government would be controlled by the people. I don&#39;t see why the people would usurp themselves.

In my opinion leftism is in a weak position due to the current status of the world powers. Both the United States and PROC are acting as militarily agressive and economically capitalist nations.

ANother factor is the fact that so called socialist parties that have gained power democratically are actually right of center. This includes Labour party in the UK, SPD in Germany, and the socialist party in spain.

Another major factor that has been around since the 80s is the death of social activist youth. MTV is like a massive youth targetting capitalist propaganda tool. Youth are much more complacent than they were during the 60s and 70s.

[Patchy]

Is it just me, or is Brokor acting like some allmighty omnipotent being? His tone just seems..sharp.

I support communism because it comes off as the best way to end suffering in my eyes. We&#39;re under a capitalist/conservative/republican system now, and guess what? Theres suffering, slavery, exploitation, bullshit. The right tells me that we can end suffering, yeah, by throwing money at it? Not likely.

On top of that, all the right wingers I&#39;ve been talking to lately have really come off ass assholes to me. Not just seeing them look down their noses at me, but the way they are outside of politic-speak. Mean, cold, harsh, uncaring. These are not the people I want leading me, or trying to.

I may not be as hardcore of a leftie as many of the people here, but I still support smashing the state and the end result of a classless, stateless society. I&#39;m in it for humanity.

[Guest1]

As you have admitted being a supporter of Capitalism, I will make you acquainted with the Revolutionary Left guidelines:


What is restriction, and what is the Opposing Ideologies forum?

Restriction is a measure the membership uses to focus the debate on this site. We are a group of progressive Leftists, after all. That is about as much as many of us have in common however. We disagree on how the society we envision will work, how best to emancipate the workers and many other issues. We need to debate these things respectfully, amongst ourselves. So we restrict debate about whether we should emancipate the workers at all to the Opposing Ideologies forum.

This is where all right-wingers are sent. This is where anyone who is too disruptive to proper debate is sent. There are other reasons for being restricted to OI of course, but generally, it requires behavior that is deemed in conflict with the membership&#39;s vision for this site.
Thus, you are now restricted.

Enjoy.

[Le People]

I support it because everyone gets a say in how things are run, and since there are no classes, there is no guy thinking they&#39;er better than the rest of the masses. There is equality, freedom to think, freedom to be your own man without the man on your ass. This is the final form of communism, not socialism. Stalinism and Maoism in my mind is not communism. I believe you have freedom to think because there are no major institutions to sway you. The ideal of capitalism should be free for all to read about in communism, just as communism is free for all to read about in democratic capitalist societies. Oh, and who tortued Marx and Engles: I believe it was Hegel. Oh and in communism, there is no state, but there is government, it&#39;s more direct democracy. Brocko, I&#39;ev come to the conclusion you&#39;er an unhappy little man, who is lonely, and currently living in your parents&#39; basement beating off to Antiques Road Show, or Are You Being Served. Oooooow....., you like that Mr. Humphries, don&#39;t ya?

[quincunx5]

On top of that, all the right wingers I&#39;ve been talking to lately have really come off ass assholes to me. Not just seeing them look down their noses at me, but the way they are outside of politic-speak. Mean, cold, harsh, uncaring. These are not the people I want leading me, or trying to.


The capitalists on this board to do want to do any leading. They want to diminish government as much as possible, so you can truly be free to do what you want.



I support it because everyone gets a say in how things are run, and since there are no classes, there is no guy thinking they&#39;er better than the rest of the masses. There is equality, freedom to think, freedom to be your own man without the man on your ass. This is the final form of communism, not socialism. Stalinism and Maoism in my mind is not communism. I believe you have freedom to think because there are no major institutions to sway you. The ideal of capitalism should be free for all to read about in communism, just as communism is free for all to read about in democratic capitalist societies. Oh, and who tortued Marx and Engles: I believe it was Hegel. Oh and in communism, there is no state, but there is government, it&#39;s more direct democracy.


This is quite funny. You think direct democracy ensures freedom to think and freedom to be your own man?

It is rule by majority, your ideas will be supressed.

Everyone gets a say in how things are run? Even the ones who have no idea the topic at hand?

Can you imagine your ideas being turned down because the majority is stupid?

Your major institution will be the majority.

If your communist society allows people to read about capitalism, it won&#39;t take long for them to realize that their better off practicing it.

Some people ARE better than other people, just accept it.

[KC]

The capitalists on this board to do want to do any leading. They want to diminish government as much as possible, so you can truly be free to do what you want.

So you can truly be free and do what big business wants.



This is quite funny. You think direct democracy ensures freedom to think and freedom to be your own man?

It is rule by majority, your ideas will be supressed.

So it&#39;s better to have a minority that is out of touch with the majority making decisions for the majority?



If your communist society allows people to read about capitalism, it won&#39;t take long for them to realize that their better off practicing it.

Your capitalist society allows people to read about feudalism. Where are all the feudalists?



Some people ARE better than other people

Why?

[quincunx5]

So you can truly be free and do what big business wants.


Big business is owned by many small people.
I can choose to avoid big businesses and deal only with the small/medium ones if I choose.



So it&#39;s better to have a minority that is out of touch with the majority making decisions for the majority?


The minority does not make decisions for you. Unless ofcourse you mean the government,,,well then yes we agree.



Your capitalist society allows people to read about feudalism. Where are all the feudalists?


Feudalism is inferior.





Some people ARE better than other people

Why?


Because otherwise the word &#39;genius&#39; wouldn&#39;t exist.

[KC]

Big business is owned by many small people.
I can choose to avoid big businesses and deal only with the small/medium ones if I choose.

The point is that as business gets bigger it is harder for competitors to enter the market and freedom of choice is limited because of this.




The minority does not make decisions for you. Unless ofcourse you mean the government,,,well then yes we agree.


And what are you proposing then? Free market capitalism?




Feudalism is inferior.

As is capitalism.



Because otherwise the word &#39;genius&#39; wouldn&#39;t exist.

So you mean "Some people ARE smarter than other people." It&#39;s different.

[Hiero]

I find it hard to say why i support Communism, mainly because it doesn&#39;t matter if i do, what matters is that i believe Communist theory.

I am a Communist, because i am a materialist. I believe that there is only matter, or things that rely on matter. Ideas can not be seperated from matter.

There for being a materialist, i believe that the individual is mostly not free from society in thought and action. The individual is determined largely by society.

There for i believe that society is divided by class primarily. This creates class culture that creates our behaviour.

Believing in class, i believe there has always been class, except in the first cases of civilisation. Looking at past societies i see that class wasn&#39;t always the same, and that new class&#39; emerged, disappeared or became a ruling class. This all depended on technology, resulting in class war.

Believing in this class war i believe that in todays societies the proletariat will follow the laws of history and overthrow the bourgeois. Believing each class has different interests they will form societies differently when they are in rulling power of property.

This new society called socialism, will organise a system of need rather then market rules that produce products only to be given value to be sold for profit. This will result in improved standards of quality in culture, education, health.

In every class society there has been government, because government is a tool used to mediate class warfare, so once there is no class the government becomes obsolete and loses its authority, thus it withers away. Then we have communism.

That is why i support communism. I don&#39;t support communism primarily because it sounds like its a good idea, i support it because of its theory.


All rights are exercised directly through property ownership

Excactly.

So in towards soceity, the class which owns most property is the bourgeois. Therefor they have more rights then thoose who do not own property.

Now i know you going to say, but alot of people own, or eventually own their house.

True, thus then the own some rights, to do what they want with their house.

But you are right, rights are exercised directly through property. So using your logic that you have given us, the peasant in the 3rd world, the worker and all people who do not own property which generates wealth, must take property into their own hands, and must collectivise so they get rights.

[quincunx5]

The point is that as business gets bigger it is harder for competitors to enter the market and freedom of choice is limited because of this.


This is true, but almost all monoplies are formed directly from government intervention. Clearly there is work to be done to reduce government. One of the reasons that companies grew so quickly is because of the capital gains tax that you socialist parasites wanted. All this has done is reduce (or even eliminate) the dividends paid to the shareholders, the true owners of a corporation. Because it&#39;s expensive to pay dividends to the shareholders, most/all of the profit is reinvested into the company - hence the amazing growth.



And what are you proposing then? Free market capitalism?


Always.



So you mean "Some people ARE smarter than other people." It&#39;s different.


Well yes, but some people work much better and harder than others. Sometimes it&#39;s just a matter of making the right choices that would make some people better than others. Sometimes the better ones are those who avoid doing stupid things, regardless of how smart they are.

[KC]

This is true, but almost all monoplies are formed directly from government intervention. Clearly there is work to be done to reduce government.

1. Where did I say anything about monopolies?
2. The only reason monopolies DON&#39;T happen is because of government intervention (there are laws against monopolies forming).
3. The government only allows monopolies that are more efficient than having competition (phone lines and stuff like that)
4. Without government regulations trusts and monopolies would form in a heartbeat.
5. Try mergers.

Without government regulations, business gets bigger, as proven by what happened during the reagan administration. God reagan was a prick.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Brokor+Aug 17 2005, 09:18 PM--> (Brokor &#064; Aug 17 2005, 09:18 PM)First, "Miles", YOU chose to take the time and post, I didn&#39;t make you. So go cry elsewhere about your childish sense of wasted time.[/b]

OK, so you really are an idiot.


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 09:18 PM
Second, you didn&#39;t answer a single question, with exception to your "opinion" on what communism is.

Translation: I did answer a single question.


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 09:18 PM
Even your opinion is tasteless due to the fact that no person can possibly even be free if they do not have the ability to own property. All rights are exercised directly through property ownership, and unfortunately, my little friend -you communists don&#39;t appear to like private property too much.

No, we communists don&#39;t like "private property" -- i.e., the private ownership of capital, land and the means of production -- at all. Such private property is nothing but theft and the denial of the rights of the working majority. Working people created that "private property" and have every natural right to control it. But capitalism denies that right -- that freedom -- in the name of "private property". That is why capitalism has to be swept off the face of the earth, and only working people fighting for communism can do that.


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 09:18 PM
Now, tell me please...who governs you if communism is supposed to be a "classless" and "stateless" society? In every communist society I have ever studied on the planet earth, it has always been the dictatorial military industrial complex.

You should really quit while you&#39;re behind. All you&#39;re doing is showing everyone here how ignorant you are. "Every communist society I have ever studied on the planet earth". Uh-huh. As opposed to -- what?&#33; -- every communist society you have ever studied on that mysterious planet orbiting the Dog Star? Oy vey&#33;


[email protected] 17 2005, 09:18 PM
Please stop wasting your own time, and come up with a better answer, son.

You get the answers you deserve.

Miles

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Why do you support the communist ideology?

Because it is one more step on the road to Utopia, the ideal human society. I do note that utopianism has fallen out of fashion as of late, but I care not for the faddish thoughts of pessimists.

-Do you know who Moses Hess was?

No clue.

-Do you know who funded Russia after the fall of the czars?

The Russian government, presumably.

-Do you know who controls the monetary systems of any or all non third world nations?

Large corporate and governmental institutions.

-Do you know who funded the French Revolution?

The French bourgeuoisie.

-Do you know who tutored Marx and Engels?

Don&#39;t really know or care, but that windbag Hegel was one of them.

-Do you know how to control the size of a communist government?
-Do you know what would keep a communist government from usurping the masses?

Communism doesn&#39;t have a government.

[Political_Punk]

No, we communists don&#39;t like "private property" -- i.e., the private ownership of capital, land and the means of production -- at all. Such private property is nothing but theft and the denial of the rights of the working majority. Working people created that "private property" and have every natural right to control it. But capitalism denies that right -- that freedom -- in the name of "private property". That is why capitalism has to be swept off the face of the earth, and only working people fighting for communism can do that.


As capitalists we like personal rights. We like working for ourselves, not some gov&#39;t, or in your case, "the working majority". (both one in the same, really). We like to not have any "working majority" or other force TELL us what to do. We believe in the personal right to not be harmed physically - or have our personal property infringed upon by anyone.
It&#39;s interesting you talk about a stateless society, yet you talk about what&#39;s right for the "working majority". Ok, so whether it&#39;s gov&#39;t or not, it&#39;s majority/mob rule. That is very much counter to any form of personal freedoms, b/c you simply don&#39;t have the choice to do as you please. And no, the minority doesn&#39;t rule either - it&#39;s about the choice to do business w/ anyone without any force from any organization or person.

Private property enables people to have the right to their own land, period. You have your personal space where you can allow or deny others to walk upon.

Seriously, who wants to live in a system where you&#39;re forced to have exactly the same as everyone else, no matter your talents? Communism removes any real motivation to better yourself, b/c as stated, regardless of your talents and work ethic, you will still personally only have as much as any lesser motivated; even, lazy guy next to you.





Originally posted by CommunistLeague


No, we communists don&#39;t like "private property" -- i.e., the private ownership of capital, land and the means of production -- at all. Such private property is nothing but theft and the denial of the rights of the working majority. Working people created that "private property" and have every natural right to control it. But capitalism denies that right -- that freedom -- in the name of "private property". That is why capitalism has to be swept off the face of the earth, and only working people fighting for communism can do that.


As capitalists we like personal rights. We like working for ourselves. We like to not have any "working majority" or other force TELL us what to do. We believe in the personal right to not be harmed physically - or have our personal property infringed upon by anyone.
"Working people created private property"?? uh, no, this is absolutely wrong. I don&#39;t recall anyone but myself going out behind my house and clearing my land, and maintaining my yard.
It&#39;s interesting you talk about a stateless society, yet you talk about what&#39;s right for the "working majority". Ok, so whether it&#39;s gov&#39;t or not, it&#39;s majority/mob rule. That is very much counter to any form of personal freedoms.
Private property enables people to have the right to their own land, period. You have your personal space where you can allow or deny others to walk upon.

Communism is about force. They talk about a class-less society, etc... but by nature people naturally are born with or aspire to having greater talents and qualities that enable them to earn more, than had they nad they not. Communists ignore (or deny) this fact of life - then go on about oppression... Well, guess what? there&#39;s always going to be inequalities, there is no natural way to overcome it. Forcing one person to give to another isn&#39;t charity - it&#39;s robbery. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Under communism, it doesn&#39;t matter your skills or talents, you simply aren&#39;t allowed (by force) to have any more than anyone else. Be it the avg. joe, or some lazy parasite, living off the system. If you&#39;re a parasite you automatically deserve less, b/c you aren&#39;t personally earning anything. No, not all poor people are parasites, either.

Seriously, who wants to live in a system where you&#39;re forced to have exactly the same as everyone else, no matter your talents? Communism removes any real motivation to better yourself, b/c as stated, regardless of your talents and work ethic, you will still personally only have as much as any lesser motivated; even lazy guy, next to you.






You should really quit while you&#39;re behind. All you&#39;re doing is showing everyone here how ignorant you are. "Every communist society I have ever studied on the planet earth". Uh-huh. As opposed to -- what?&#33; -- every communist society you have ever studied on that mysterious planet orbiting the Dog Star? Oy vey&#33;


Nice. You completely avoided his point. Since he&#39;s right though, any approach towards communism in the real world has always meant oppression and force towards the individual. Ok, so then you agree w/ him, then...

the bottom line is: no one can truly be free if they are forced to give up their personal space whether it&#39;s for a gov&#39;t or "the working majority"...

Do you understand how we want our own personal space where no one else can infringe? I don&#39;t see how anyone can argue that is not freedom... b/c it rationally is the essence of freedom.

Honestly, would you like people coming and going as they please on your property at all hours - whenever they pleased. Wouldn&#39;t you like to be free to have your own yard?
Or even if you don&#39;t own a yard, would you appreciate people coming and going at all hours of the day into your house or apartment? Wouldn&#39;t you prefer to be free to have your own personal space?

Maybe you wouldn&#39;t...that&#39;s your opinion of course... but to try and call property rights anti-freedom is completely wrong, period.

[Socialistpenguin]

As capitalists we like personal rights. We like working for ourselves, not some gov&#39;t, or in your case, "the working majority". (both one in the same, really). We like to not have any "working majority" or other force TELL us what to do. We believe in the personal right to not be harmed physically - or have our personal property infringed upon by anyone.
It&#39;s interesting you talk about a stateless society, yet you talk about what&#39;s right for the "working majority". Ok, so whether it&#39;s gov&#39;t or not, it&#39;s majority/mob rule. That is very much counter to any form of personal freedoms, b/c you simply don&#39;t have the choice to do as you please. And no, the minority doesn&#39;t rule either - it&#39;s about the choice to do business w/ anyone without any force from any organization or person.

But what of those people who don&#39;t have the resources to work for themselves? You know who they work for? They work for a boss. Now, correct me if I&#39;m wrong, but doesn&#39;t having a boss entail that he tell&#39;s you how to do your work? Also, you realise communists value personal property? just curious.

Also, regarding your remark about mob rule, why would it be mob rule? how do you define "mod rule"? Also, why shouldn&#39;t people have the ability to do what they please? Because it&#39;s "counter to personal freedoms?" Bizarre.


Private property enables people to have the right to their own land, period. You have your personal space where you can allow or deny others to walk upon.
You&#39;re confusing personal with private here.




Seriously, who wants to live in a system where you&#39;re forced to have exactly the same as everyone else, no matter your talents? Communism removes any real motivation to better yourself, b/c as stated, regardless of your talents and work ethic, you will still personally only have as much as any lesser motivated; even, lazy guy next to you. Tell me, where is it written that in Communism, people should and must be forced to be the same? Please, don&#39;t use the USSR as an example, that just degrades both of us Yes, people will be the same SOCIALLY, but different in talents. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

Also, how do you define "better oneself"? communism doesn&#39;t remove that desire: capitalism, however, does. Think about it: if you work for someone and get paid &#036;5 an hour, without any prospect of a raise, what encourages you to work harder? SOD ALL. However, working at a job or hobby you love, this brings enjoyment into the works, and will thus bring more productivity.

as for the rest of your post, I believe I have answered the questions sufficiently.

[Patchy]

Seriously, who wants to live in a system where you&#39;re forced to have exactly the same as everyone else, no matter your talents?

Me.

Why? I don&#39;t care about personal possesions, I rarely buy anything anymore. Hell, I&#39;ve been using the same clothes for the past 4 years. I wash them, but I don&#39;t buy new ones. You are not forced to have the same as everyone else, if you need 200 nails, a saw, and various other tools to build a shed, some guy living in his apartment writing isn&#39;t going to have those. What&#39;s he going to do, look at them?

Anything else I wanted to say was already covered by the Penguin.

[Martin Blank]

All quotes are from Political_Punk....


As capitalists we like personal rights. We like working for ourselves, not some gov&#39;t, or in your case, "the working majority". (both one in the same, really). We like to not have any "working majority" or other force TELL us what to do. We believe in the personal right to not be harmed physically - or have our personal property infringed upon by anyone.

What silly shit you write. Do you really think you are not working for someone else? Are you really that naive ... or stupid?

Look, I know you think you&#39;re "free" because you&#39;re some petty producer of some shite people may or may not really need. And, to a certain degree, you&#39;re right. But the only reason your kind exist is because some Big Bourgeois keeps you. You&#39;re nothing more than a puppet for the capitalist that signs your subcontracting paycheck.

And, deep down, you know this. You know that every day could be your last as a "free" person, and tomorrow you may have to get up and go get a real job -- like the rest of us workers. And it scares you to death. The very thought of having to punch a clock and work for an exploitative boss makes you damn near apoplectic. You get neurotic. You begin to look for miracle solutions. And you vent your anger and fear on the Internet.

This is what fuels your ignorant ranting against communism (and, I would suspect, socialism, social democracy, progressivism, liberalism, etc.). Class-based fear. Your class may be stable, but you as an individual are vulnerable -- especially in this economy.

We know your type. Yes, we have you mapped out like the genome. You&#39;re pathetic.


It&#39;s interesting you talk about a stateless society, yet you talk about what&#39;s right for the "working majority". Ok, so whether it&#39;s gov&#39;t or not, it&#39;s majority/mob rule.

More nonsense about the so-called "tyranny of the majority". As a comrade and friend of mine likes to say, I&#39;d rather risk the "tyranny of the majority" than endure for one more day the very real tyranny of the minority.


That is very much counter to any form of personal freedoms, b/c you simply don&#39;t have the choice to do as you please. And no, the minority doesn&#39;t rule either - it&#39;s about the choice to do business w/ anyone without any force from any organization or person.

Your "personal freedom" is another person&#39;s slavery.

And are you really that naive or stupid that you think you are not forced to "do business" with someone else? Starvation is as much a coercive force as someone standing there with a gun -- and is often much more effective, since it is a force not limited to one form.

As the saying goes: Starvation or exploitation -- that&#39;s not a choice, that&#39;s a threat.


Private property enables people to have the right to their own land, period. You have your personal space where you can allow or deny others to walk upon.

Restriction = freedom.

Umm, yeah.... I know where this goes.


Seriously, who wants to live in a system where you&#39;re forced to have exactly the same as everyone else, no matter your talents?

Have you idiots ever read any Marx? If you had, you&#39;d know that the guiding principle of communism is "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need". Does that sound like a society where "you&#39;re forced to have exactly the same as everyone else"?

Comrades, these guys can&#39;t even get out of the shallow end of the thought pool. I suppose there&#39;s a correlation between that and their usual activity in the gene pool.


Communism removes any real motivation to better yourself, b/c as stated, regardless of your talents and work ethic, you will still personally only have as much as any lesser motivated; even, lazy guy next to you.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Nice. You completely avoided his point. Since he&#39;s right though, any approach towards communism in the real world has always meant oppression and force towards the individual. Ok, so then you agree w/ him, then...

Considering that those so-called "communist governments" did what they did under a stolen flag, and never even got close to even the lowest phases of communism, your argument holds as much water as cheesecloth.


the bottom line is: no one can truly be free if they are forced to give up their personal space whether it&#39;s for a gov&#39;t or "the working majority"...

I would suggest looking up the definition of "irony" at this point.


Do you understand how we want our own personal space where no one else can infringe? I don&#39;t see how anyone can argue that is not freedom... b/c it rationally is the essence of freedom.

Your personal space is one thing; private ownership of the land, natural resources and the means of production is another.


Honestly, would you like people coming and going as they please on your property at all hours - whenever they pleased. Wouldn&#39;t you like to be free to have your own yard? Or even if you don&#39;t own a yard, would you appreciate people coming and going at all hours of the day into your house or apartment? Wouldn&#39;t you prefer to be free to have your own personal space?

I can have "my own" yard that I take care of without the need to own it (in fact, I do). For that matter, I can help others with "their own" yards, too, without the need to own it. Or, we can work together as a community to improve those yards, for the benefit of everyone, and ownership wouldn&#39;t even factor into it. Common ownership means we all take care of it and we all benefit from it. We can work out "personal space" together, without the need to have "private ownership" enter into it.


Maybe you wouldn&#39;t...that&#39;s your opinion of course... but to try and call property rights anti-freedom is completely wrong, period.

Again, your "property" is my slavery. I demand freedom and the power to determine my own destiny, and will settle for nothing less.

Miles

[Le People]

Quiet frankly, every one has the same abilities, it&#39;s in how you apply them. You can be your own man, because, you and your fellow man has equal power.

[Brokor]

"Communism doesn&#39;t have a government"

THAT IS A LIE.


No society, no large group of people on EARTH can even FUNCTION without a government. Additionally, your little ideological and philosophical perceptions of "communism" is not the same as the GOVERNMENTAL FORM OF COMMUNISM, which really, truly has been directly responsible for over 70 million deaths since the French Revolution.

Reality is sometimes difficult to bear, I know.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

"Communism doesn&#39;t have a government"

THAT IS A LIE.

Just because you say something in ALLCAPS doesn&#39;t make it true.


No society, no large group of people on EARTH can even FUNCTION without a government.

Prove it.


Additionally, your little ideological and philosophical perceptions of "communism" is not the same as the GOVERNMENTAL FORM OF COMMUNISM, which really, truly has been directly responsible for over 70 million deaths since the French Revolution.

Communism didn&#39;t even exist during the French Revolution. You know fuck-all about history.


Reality is sometimes difficult to bear, I know.

Is that why you hide behind a web of false information and lies?

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 10:13 PM
"Communism doesn&#39;t have a government"

THAT IS A LIE.


No society, no large group of people on EARTH can even FUNCTION without a government. Additionally, your little ideological and philosophical perceptions of "communism" is not the same as the GOVERNMENTAL FORM OF COMMUNISM, which really, truly has been directly responsible for over 70 million deaths since the French Revolution.

Reality is sometimes difficult to bear, I know.
Brokor, saying it doesn&#39;t make it so. Nor does saying it over and over again. :rolleyes:

And what you fail to grasp is that communism/anarchism is self-government, rather than representative government in the sense we know today.

[Brokor]

Are all people on these boards as ignorant as yourself?



Just because you say something in ALLCAPS doesn&#39;t make it true.
No. It makes it more pronounced. Get a CLUE.


Prove it.
Fine. I am an enemy with superior firepower and organization. I have a few million soldiers, and you have??? Bands of defenseless, loving, caring commies?



Communism didn&#39;t even exist during the French Revolution. You know fuck-all about history.
Oh, really? The link between the communists, the French Revolution, and the illuminati comes from Saul Padover, in his work, Karl Marx: An Intimate Biography, in which he tells of Marx, then aged twenty-three, meeting with the thirty year old Moses Hess in Cologne. Hess later wrote, "Dr. Marx is still a very young man, who will give the coup de grace to the medieval religion and politics."

In 1885, Cardinal Henry Manning wrote that the Communist International was not the work of Karl Marx but that of "secret political societies, which from 1789 to this day have been perfecting their formation, and...have drawn closer together in mutual alliance and cooperation. In 1848 they were sufficiently powerful to threaten almost every capital in Europe by a simultaneous rising."

According to Eugene H. Methvin, in his book, Rise of Radicalism: The Social Psychology of Messianic Extremism,
"In October of 1842 Frederick Engels stopped in Cologne and spent the afternoon with Moses Hess, then 30, who was known as the "communist rabbi" for his missionary zeal in proselyting for French utopian ideas." He goes on to say, "Marx and Engels planned to publish a German edition of Buonarroti&#39;s Conspiration pour l&#39;egalite [Conspiracy for Equality], translated by Moses Hess...Marx&#39;s extensive collection of books on the Frencj Revolution contained a copy of Buonarroti&#39;s Conspiration."

-Finally, asshole...I never SAID that communism existed during the French Revolution. I merely implied that it was responsible, and I implied by means of association, as is clearly denoted above. Nice try, however it is typical of the idiots who support communism.


Now, who is lying to whom, asshole?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

No. It makes it more pronounced. Get a CLUE.

Still doesn&#39;t make it true. no matter how many times you repeat it.


Fine. I am an enemy with superior firepower and organization. I have a few million soldiers, and you have??? Bands of defenseless, loving, caring commies?

That has nothing to do with your original statement. What you just said was not proof of whether communism is a viable society or not, just typical macho willy waving.


Oh, really? The link between the communists, the French Revolution, and the illuminati <snip paranoid delusions>

Stop right there. Do you take the illuminati seriously? then I hope you don&#39;t mind if I laugh in your paranoid face. Just because conspiracy bollocks was written in a book does not make it true.


-Finally, asshole...I never SAID that communism existed during the French Revolution. I merely implied that it was responsible, and I implied by means of association, as is clearly denoted above. Nice try, however it is typical of the idiots who support communism.

The French revolution aided modern capitalism, not communism. Learn some history. Nice ad hominem by the way.


Now, who is lying to whom, asshole?

You are lying to yourself.

[Le People]

Look, the asshole has a point, their is always government, but the state in the Marxian sense could wither away.

[KC]

No society, no large group of people on EARTH can even FUNCTION without a government. Additionally, your little ideological and philosophical perceptions of "communism" is not the same as the GOVERNMENTAL FORM OF COMMUNISM, which really, truly has been directly responsible for over 70 million deaths since the French Revolution.

There is no such thing as a "governmental form of communism". Just because they say they are communists doesn&#39;t make them so&#33;



Reality is sometimes difficult to bear, I know.

If you knew anything at all about communism, you&#39;d understand that it has never existed.



Fine. I am an enemy with superior firepower and organization. I have a few million soldiers, and you have??? Bands of defenseless, loving, caring commies?


One of the many reasons why a communist STATE can&#39;t exist. So you just proved your opinion that there has been such thing as communist states false. A communist society is worldwide, meaning that there is no enemy with superior firepower and organization. Armies only serve to kill other people and steal their resources. Governments only serve to protect private property rights. Once private property is abolished, there won&#39;t be a need for a government. Once there is no government, there is no state. So how would an army exist?

And last of all, you believe in the illuminati? You need some help. And what does Moses Hess have to do with anything? He was an anti-assimilationist Zionist who married a prostitute. So what?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 06:13 PM
"Communism doesn&#39;t have a government"

THAT IS A LIE.


No society, no large group of people on EARTH can even FUNCTION without a government. Additionally, your little ideological and philosophical perceptions of "communism" is not the same as the GOVERNMENTAL FORM OF COMMUNISM, which really, truly has been directly responsible for over 70 million deaths since the French Revolution.

Reality is sometimes difficult to bear, I know.
yeah reality is difficult to bear, you must feel really stupid with this load of bullshit going through your head. COMMUNISM IS DEFINED AS A STATELESS CLASSESLESS SOCIETY&#33; where did you get your information about communism from? the McCarthy era? :lol:

[Brokor]

Well, I did come to YOUR forum. :rolleyes: I cannot expect anything less from delusional communists.

Be well.

[KC]

Nice reply, delusional capitalist.

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 04:17 AM
Well, I did come to YOUR forum. :rolleyes: I cannot expect anything less from delusional communists.

Be well.
Your the one that can&#39;t accept the truth. The truth is even a slight change in policy would save millions of lives every day. The truth is, America is one of the worst places to live in the industrialized world(including Canada, most of Europe, and the Pacific rim), and yet is the most free market and least interventionist. Those policies sure are working :rolleyes:. The Truth is that the Soviet Union and the People&#39;s Republic of China do not represent communist values of equality and freedom from oppression. The truth is capitalist policy has resulted in poverty and starvation in Africa, South America, and Asia. Whenever these policies become threatened, the United States supports violent wars and violent dictators as long as they aren&#39;t communists.

Why do you refuse to accept these truths? I think you are the dellusional one.

[Hiero]

We like working for ourselves, not some gov&#39;t, or in your case, "the working majority". (both one in the same, really). We like to not have any "working majority" or other force TELL us what to do

People don&#39;t work for themselves. They work for their boss.

But even the boss is not free from force. They are forced to work, produce and manufacture in regards to the market. They can not sell at just any price, they can not produce cloths for warmth, and they must produce cloths for the market, the current fashion. They can&#39;t produce medicines for the poor people, because they must make profit.

In socialism removing the market and a minority class from control of production, the government can produce what people need with materials we have.

So we are replacing one force with another. Removing the force of the market and replacing it with the force of need, the force of the proletariat.



Private property enables people to have the right to their own land, period. You have your personal space where you can allow or deny others to walk upon.

In reality not all people own their land, they spend years paying it off and many spend their life paying rent.

Also you have miss the point, when we talk about property we are talking about industry, workplace etc. These places the worker does not own, and can never own under capitalism.

There is no reason why we would take away peoples homes. Home construction would become centralised rather then random like in market, but design would be left to the individual residing there. There would also be personal space, personal space is a common idea in western society. So people will continue to tell people when they are invading their privacy.

In past socialist societies people didn&#39;t walk all through peoples houses, so i don&#39;t know where you got that from anyway.

[bunk]

One of the many reasons why a communist STATE can&#39;t exist. So you just proved your opinion that there has been such thing as communist states false. A communist society is worldwide, meaning that there is no enemy with superior firepower and organization.


I disagreee, if a commune or a certain place can utilise direct democracy and mutual aid then they are communist. They will face enemies, it seems unrealistic that the whole world will become communist around the same time. It&#39;s possible to have communism in a small place..

[quincunx5]

People don&#39;t work for themselves. They work for their boss.


Sure generalize everything.



They can not sell at just any price, they can not produce cloths for warmth, and they must produce cloths for the market, the current fashion. They can&#39;t produce medicines for the poor people, because they must make profit.


You&#39;re actually comparing production of clothing to medicine? Physically producing medicine is practically simple, most of the time is spent on research.



In socialism removing the market and a minority class from control of production, the government can produce what people need with materials we have.


I see you are the central planning type.



In reality not all people own their land, they spend years paying it off and many spend their life paying rent.


Before paying it off they sell it to some other shmuck and make a profit. Why are they paying rent?



Also you have miss the point, when we talk about property we are talking about industry, workplace etc. These places the worker does not own, and can never own under capitalism.


Public corporations are exactly that. People buy stock in it to share the mean of production and earn profit. This is something you bastards always IGNORE.



There is no reason why we would take away peoples homes. Home construction would become centralised rather then random like in market, but design would be left to the individual residing there. There would also be personal space, personal space is a common idea in western society. So people will continue to tell people when they are invading their privacy.


Central planning will ensure that shortages will be the norm. Look at NYC, San Francisco, and Sweden in the 50&#39;s 60&#39;s.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 03:45 PM
Whenever I ask a person why they support communism, nearly every response has been centered around what was wrong with other political systems, societies in general, or the type of economy they have, but never once has a person who supports communism ever told me why they support communism itself.

And so, I will ask this one simple question:
Why do you support the communist ideology?


I do not want to know what is &#39;wrong with the world&#39;, I do not want to hear about your problems with other political idologies. I only want to know how you see communism as beneficial, and why. Why do you support this ideology?

*Alternative questions you may answer if you feel willing, are as follows*

-Do you know who Moses Hess was?
-Do you know who funded Russia after the fall of the czars?
-Do you know who controls the monetary systems of any or all non third world nations?
-Do you know who funded the French Revolution?
-Do you know who tutored Marx and Engels?
-Do you know how to control the size of a communist government?
-Do you know what would keep a communist government from usurping the masses?


Thank you for your time. :ph34r:
I support communism because it is simply the best system. It is a system in which people are free, everything is under the control of everyone, there are no leaders, wealth is shared because everyone contributes to that wealth and most importantly people work together and not against eachother.

If however you mean why do i support marxism (communist ideology as you put it) this is because it is the road to the system called communism, and because it is correct in its analysis of capitalist society. Also it is something that brings people together, it does not try to let people compete with eachother, it encourages people to WORK TOGETHER and overhtrow their bosses.

"-Do you know how to control the size of a communist government?
-Do you know what would keep a communist government from usurping the masses?"

in communism there is no government and in socialism the masses=the government.

It is also highly unlikely for the people to stop a good idea (good as in positively influencing the people&#39;s life) from being implemented because they have more insight in how society works simply BECAUSE they make the decisions and not some "leader".

"tell me and i will forget
show me and i will remember
let me participate and i will understand"

[*PRC*Kensei]

i support it cause,
if the world becomes communist.........anybody&#39;s equal...things are well divided, ANYBODY - thats the key word - can live a good life... what more do you want ?

maby a little to simple, i could give a real anser to it, but no time now <_<

[jasontkennedy]

-Do you know who tutored Marx and Engels?

I know Marx learned dialectic thinking from Hegel, when he went to college. Though he disagreed with the substance of Hegel&#39;s philosophy he was fascinated with the dialectic process.

Although, I somehow think that this is not the response that you are looking for. In fact, I would imagine that they received "tutoring" from several people. You may want to specify your question a bit more. Although, I think that if you are as pointed as you&#39;d like to be, you will wind up showing part of your ridiculous conspiracy that you are already hinting at.

And why am I a communist? Because communism calls for a non private ownership of the means of production. In this way, people aren&#39;t factored as a part of cost that can be minimized. Human life is treated as a commodity in the current US system, and this has existed for a long time here. Sometimes it takes a pain before it becomes apparent that there is a problem. Until there is a problem a needed treatment may not be saught. To a point, I would allow that Marx was somewhat reactionary, but that is no flaw or logical failing. The same could be true for abolishing slavery. There are some institutions that are bad, and need to be replace with better ones. Communism is just the next step towards freedom.

[Le People]

The proletarian must work to have a boss&#33; Capitalism can only work until the worker realizes they make the man rich, and they don&#39;t get shit,then blood of cappies will be running in the street.

[*PRC*Kensei]

haha, thats the spirit :P