Teleology's influence on dialectics?

[Sihvyl]

My first post....wooooohoooo!

Anyone care to discuss your opinions of teleology's influence on dialectics? Positive and negative views; lets hear them all! ;)

What is teleology? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology)

[redstar2000]

One good reason (among many) for trashing "dialectics" is that we can rid ourselves of teleology as well.

The idea of communism as a "final stage" of human history is pretty absurd...when you stop and think about it.

It's like saying present-day humans are as "good" as evolution will ever do.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Djehuti]

I would not claim that Marx dialectics is teleological, Hegels though is.
Marx did not claim that communism was the end of history, just the end of pre-history (where humanity was not in control of her future).

[Sihvyl]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I was a little misunderstood. I was moreso trying to get at saying: "Do you think that dialectics is basically just the recording of events that have occured from following a pre-set teleological plan?"

Redstar- Yeah, definitely not the final stage huh? And as for trashing teleology, sounds great! Destiny is so imprisoning.

Djehuti- Could you elaborate a little more? I'm a complete newb, and have yet had time to read up on anything Hegel.

:ph34r:

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 12:13 PM
"Do you think that dialectics is basically just the recording of events that have occured from following a pre-set teleological plan?"
Huh? For that to be the case, there would have to be, objectively, such a pre-set teleological plan controlling events. "God's plan" basically.

I agree with Djehuti, I don't see what's teleological about materialist dialectics.

[Sihvyl]

You hit the nail right on the head Severian. It would have to involve a "God's plan" sort of thing. Thats what I'm curious to find out: whether people believe that teleology is the leading cause in the process. I think this post should've been put the theory section....whoops, sorry! :)

[Guest1]

No. It should be in opposing ideologies, in the religion forum.

There is no god, and no god's plan.

And no, dialectics has nothing to do with such a "divine intervention". Dialectics is merely the understanding that the world is not static, nor is it always in gradual motion. Dialectics is the idea that change happens by gradual systems being punctuated by radical changes. In otherwords, evolution gives way to revolution, as the fossil records show.

This means that communism is no "end of history". Neither are these changes "pre-determined", however, they are not merely random. Random events on the individual level can add up to a general trend on large scales.

That's dialectics.

Now I'm moving this to religion.