Gerhard Schroeder

[Warren Peace]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40686000/jpg/_40686638_schroederglasesap203.jpg

Germany's Prime Minister, Gerhard Schroeder, claims to be a socialist and is obviously an anti-imperialist. The persecution of fascists and racists in Germany under the Social Democratic Party is admirable. So far, I haven't seen anything about Gerhard or the SDP to make me think they're our enemies. I doubt Gerhard would support a socialist revolution, but is there any reason for us to oppose him?

Check out this article on BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4149090.stm#) about Gerhard Schroeder warning the US not to invade Iran. Also, you should watch the video of Gerhard speaking at an SDP rally in Germany. All the red flags give it a revolutionary look.

[CrazyModerate]

Your going to be attacked. Brace yourself. I personally don't really like Shroeder as he seems to be accepting the 3rd way principle.

[Warren Peace]

I never said I supported him! ;) I'm just saying he doesn't seem so bad, and asking for opinions on him.

[BitchBrew]

Originally posted by Revolt Now!@Aug 15 2005, 01:53 AM
The persecution of fascists and racists in Germany under the Social Democratic Party is admirable.

I don't look upon presecution as admirable.

[h&s]

Germany's Prime Minister, Gerhard Schroeder, claims to be a socialist and is obviously an anti-imperialist.
None of that is true. His neo-liberal capitalist policies prove beyond doubt that he is not a socialist, ad his oppositon to the Iraq war was just to gain popularity among the working class.

but is there any reason for us to oppose him?

Just look at his record... ;)

[Warren Peace]

I don't look upon presecution as admirable.

So Nazis should be aloud to voice their beliefs? Look what happened when Hitler voiced his beliefs! Racists have no right to speak or appear in public. I suport free speach after the revolution, but that is only because I believe that in the revolution we will purge all reactionary ideas.


His neo-liberal capitalist policies prove beyond doubt that he is not a socialist

I said he claimed to be a socialist. So did Pol Pot!

[Andy Bowden]

I don't believe Schroeder opposed the imperialist invasion of Afghanistan. And his neo-liberal program of cuts have been strongly opposed by strikes from the working class. He should of course be opposed and I wish good luck to the Socialist elements of WASG in the next election :)

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh hes just another cpaitalist polititian. At least he opposed the Iraq war but on the otherhand he's content to have U$ military bases in his countries.

[Tupac-Amaru]

Originally posted by Revolt Now!@Aug 15 2005, 01:53 AM
I haven't seen anything about Gerhard or the SDP to make me think they're our enemies.
:huh:

Unemployment is above 10% :o

If he was really representing the workers, than he could at least create more jobs <_<


But i admit is he is definately better than that Biatch Merkel&#33;

[redstar2000]

Hard to believe anyone even asked the question. :lol:

He&#39;s the Tony Blair of Germany&#33;

And he is not an "anti-imperialist" -- He supports German imperialism&#33;

What else would you expect?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Amusing Scrotum]

Give him a bit of credit Redstar. At least he doesn&#39;t look constantly smug like Lord Blair, Great Lapdog of our wonderful American Allies, with which we share both interests and morals.

Also the Greens under Fischer are prominent under his Government. Which is not so bad.

[Red Powers]

Revolt Now "All the red flags give it a revolutionary look" Please be careful my friend as I recall the NSDAP had quite a few red flags (they had swastikas but hey&#33;&#33;). Flying a red flag doesn&#39;t make one revolutionary and the SPD way back in 1959 at their Bad Godesberg Congress rejected Marxism completely. The have been allies of US imperialism since before that and are basically the German equivalent of the Democrats. They are even worse in some ways because they have a much stronger lock on the WC through the unions.

[London Communist]

Give him a bit of credit Redstar. At least he doesn&#39;t look constantly smug like Lord Blair,

So despite the fact that Schroeder is an imperialist neo-liberal capitalist politician, he is OK on the basis of the facial expressions he has.

I could not care less if Schroeder looks smug, depressed, happy, nuerotic or anything else for that matter, he should be opposed for the simple fact that he is a capitalist politician&#33;

Also his POLICIES are the SAME as Blair&#39;s.

As marxists/anarchists, we should not look at politicians on the basis of cosmetic apperance, that is how the capitalist system works, that ALL politicians are the same and that they only make themselves look different with empty promises and image. We should SEE THROUGH this cheap marketing ploy and look at the system as a whole.

Germany is a capitalist state and is also imperialist in the economic sense as German corporations have extensive influence throughout the ex-USSR, eastern Europe and the &#39;thrid world&#39;.


Also the Greens under Fischer are prominent under his Government. Which is not so bad.

The German Green Party is a reactionary capitalist party like ALL the other major parties in Germany, SPD, CDU, FDP and the CDP.

The Green Party SUPPORTS the attacks on the German welfare system that Schroeder has carried out and the Greens SUPPORT the lowering of conditions and social justice for the German working class in the inerests of &#39;competiveness&#39;.

Fischer is also one of the MOST right wing figures within the Green Party and he reperesents the &#39;realos&#39; faction inside that party. The &#39;realos&#39; faction was the faction that turned the Green Party into a &#39;respectable&#39; establishment party and abolished the more radical factions within the Greens, who have now left to form other ecologist groupings.

I wish Schroeder and Fishcer defeat at the next elections.

[bolshevik butcher]

Well i would if it wasnt that his oppisiton were the christian democrats.

[London Communist]

There is other left wing oppositions to the CDU/CSU.

WASG is a left-populist party.

PDS is the old ruling party of the former GDR.

And many small far-left parties to choose from as well.

IMO, however, elections are a waste of time and we should organise political action outside of the dead end of the capitalist talking shop.

Just because the Conservatives are the 2nd party in Britain does not mean Ill vote Labout just to keep them out.

[bolshevik butcher]

Ok, while i get what your saying, if i lived in safe labour seet i would vote for a left wng candidate. However if my seet was close between labour and tories i have to say it might well be more prudent to vote labour. Also please dont forget that there are still soem good labour mps.

[BitchBrew]

Originally posted by Revolt Now&#33;@Aug 15 2005, 03:57 PM
So Nazis should be aloud to voice their beliefs? Look what happened when Hitler voiced his beliefs&#33; Racists have no right to speak or appear in public. I suport free speach after the revolution, but that is only because I believe that in the revolution we will purge all reactionary ideas.


Yes racists, facists and nazis schould all be allowed to raise their voice. And when they do that rational thinking people (obvieusly not you) like me and others will present facts and undiniable arguments in the debate. When that has happend allot less people will be drown to the ideology because the lies and bullshit presented from the facist propaganda-machine as trues will be just redicoules comperde to the anti-facist propaganda presented by "us".

By neglacting facist ideologis you just let them thrive, and by yousing facist violence methodes to holde them down your&#39;e only strengthining their belives.

[Warren Peace]

Sorry, I didn&#39;t know much about him.


And when they do that rational thinking people (obvieusly not you) like me and others will present facts and undiniable arguments in the debate.

We&#39;re talking about racists here, they&#39;re dumbasses&#33; It doesn&#39;t matter if you have facts and undeniable arguments. There is undeniable proof that the Holocaust happened. Yet there are plenty of neo-Nazis running around, beating Jews and black people to death in the streets. There are plentry of KKK and Minutemen in the US, attacking Mexican immigrants and others. Facts and evidence don&#39;t matter to racists, the only fact they know is that they think they&#39;re better than all other races, and they&#39;re proud of it. Unless we defeat them through revolution, their ideas will linger, they will spread reactionary feelings, and they will kill people.

[viva le revolution]

Revoltnow, you are right. Racists should not, cannot be argued against because they root thier claims on extremely unreliable assumptions which CANNOT be proven nor debated materially nor proven in any sense of the word. They suffer from a dearth in intelligence and should be put in labour camps or made to jump off a bridge :D

[Amusing Scrotum]

London Communist -
Fischer is also one of the MOST right wing figures within the Green Party and he reperesents the &#39;realos&#39; faction inside that party. The &#39;realos&#39; faction was the faction that turned the Green Party into a &#39;respectable&#39; establishment party and abolished the more radical factions within the Greens, who have now left to form other ecologist groupings.


Correct me if I&#39;m wrong, but wasn&#39;t Fischer a prominent member in a left wing terrorist organisation in Germany in his youth.

[London Communist]

Correct me if I&#39;m wrong, but wasn&#39;t Fischer a prominent member in a left wing terrorist organisation in Germany in his youth.

Well there is confusion over that one.

Herr Fischer claims to have been a close friend with a RAF rebel, but he stated that he NEVER was a member or took part in guerrilla attacks.

His right wing/CDU/CSU opponents claim he was a member, though small time, nothing big within the RAF.

There is confusion over his involvment in some riot in which a German policeman will killed in.

However, people&#39;s political beliefs CHANGE&#33;

MANY people were radicals and revolutionaries in their youth, only to become capitalist politicians and even CEOs.

Most people start of left wing in their youth and become more conservative as they get along. Im the opposite in that I WAS right wing as a teenager, yet now in adulthood Im a communist.

The leader of the National Democratic Party of Germany (NPD), which is a militant nazi group that openly calls for a one party state and is more EXTREME than the BNP or French NF, is now also led by a former RAF member.

Horst Mahler was a far left urban guerrilla/terrorist in the 1970s and is now the leader of the party that is a direct continuation of Hitler&#39;s NSDAP party.

Just because someone used to be left wing or TALKS left wing, don&#39;t use that as a way to judge them.

Look at what politicians DO and their POLICIES, for actions speak louder than words.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Look at what politicians DO and their POLICIES, for actions speak louder than words.

Though politicians on the left are rarely allowed to carry out their policies. I&#39;m thinking of the Wilson Governments being stunted by corporations and banks. Therefore Lefties in politics generally end up becoming aid workers in a sense. Trying to heal societies problems with plasters and bandades, instead of operating. Bad analogy I know, but I think the points valid.

[The Living Red]

Schroeder: wasn&#39;t he against cancelling the debt to Africa?

If so he can only be a cappie bastard who needs to be strung up.

[icemanpolitik]

Hello camaradas,

I think that Schröeder is another member more of the socialdemocracy of Europe. But I can assure, that inside the european socialdemocracy, he&#39;s not the left-sector.

Like all socialdemocrats, sometimes, he makes meetings with left-wing ideas, more money for de poor, more well-being using the social resources and social progress. But, socialdemocrats believe in the capitalist market, and their economical ministers are usual liberal ones.

The SPD (Probably the most important socialdemocrat party of the world), The Socialdemocrat German Party, has just suffered an important internal fissure. The real left-side of the party has just created the WASG (Social Justice Party), wich it will be in coallition with the famous PDS (The Party of the Democratic Socialism), the "evolution" of the SED (Communist Party of the East Germany).

[Xiao Banfa]

While a SPD-led administration is preferable to one led by Ayn-Randite Angela Merkel, he is still a capitalist. He has been cutting the dole just like the Labour Party did in my country in 1984. I would probably vote for the Left party if I lived in Germs-money. People- he supported the invasion of Afghanistan, let&#39;s put it in perspective.