The Black Bloc

[Decolonize The Left]

I've recently done a bit of research into the Black Bloc. For those who are unfamiliar, the black bloc is a tactic employed by protesters, where you dress in all black with a mask disguising your identity. The purpose of this is to show solidarity, it offers protecting as it is hard to distinguish one member from another, among others.
The black bloc is often responsable for resisting the police, as well as vandalizing and busting up corporate buildings and stores.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this as a tactic in protesting. This obviously runs contrary to the ideas of peaceful protests, do you all think it is a better form of protesting? Any opinions?

-- August

[Reds]

Well that realy depends on wether or not peaceful protest is possible in the city or country your having it in.

[Decolonize The Left]

No it doesn't. I was asking about opinions on the Black Bloc, not peaceful protesting...

I want to know what people think about the tactic, about if it is useful or not..

-- August

[Reds]

In my opinion I like it the black block and other tactics like it are the begging sighns of revolution.

[BitchBrew]

Weither or not the technic is good or not is irrelvent unless you put it in a context. It depends on what they are protesting against.

[violencia.Proletariat]

they fight the police, the police are part of the defence of the state. i dont see what is wrong with this in that mentality, because as anarchists, they want to destroy the state.

[enigma2517]

Insurrectionary anarchists engage in black bloc activities to create a model of resistance.

Basic sociology really. Suppose there is a group of little kids and they are all disgruntled at some adult (teacher, camp counselor, etc.). All of these children wish to rebel and dissolve this adult's power so that they can overturn some decisions made they feel are unfair. However, often times these kids end up grumbling a lot and otherwise doing nothing. When you don't have that one rogue child that is actually the first to volunteer and directly confront authority with resist the rest of the children (while potentially "rebellious") will obstain from such an act.

The black bloc is meant to create confrontation with the state in probably the most direct way possible. In doing so, they hope to act as a catalyst to give hope and encouragement to others oppressed like themselves.

My 2 cents on this:

1.) Black bloc is necessary. Somebody has to take the first step and confront power head on. Others will follow. A prime example of this was in Seattle, 1999 when people gathered to protest the WTO meetings. Anarchists started a few small street battles with riot cops, however, others quickly joined. People stepped outside of their residences to confront the police who were shooting tear gas into their neighborhoods. Ordinary people that is, those that weren't the most political type (this was evident since they didn't even bother to come out and join the protest in the first place). However, their frustrations manifested themselves when they saw the chance to fight back and take it.

2.) Black bloc is overused and focused on far too much. Creating insurrection is really the last step. Of course we have to display ongoing resistance to the despotism of capital but this must be done in an escalational matter. Save the big fireworks for the grand finale. I think the problem is (as Redstar2000 put very well) is the lack of theoritical clarity surrounding anarchism and thus the aims of the Black bloc. More should be done in educating people about the REAL aims of anarchism. Leaflets and brochures handed out, discussion clubs, street stands are ways of reaching the public. Maybe there is even more creative ways to reach our audience. Either way its important that people realize what we're fighting for and against. For most, anarchism means chaos and no order.

Running around the streets fucking up corporate property and fighting the riot cops is definately more exhilerating but time needs to be taken to inform the community. However, this responsibility is equally, if not more important, especially at this time of record low class consciousness. Take note!

The media will always label us and blood thirtsy street punks with no coherent agenda. Any serious contest to power will always be dismissed. So in that case we need to go full force. Those who dismiss black bloc would rather vote or lobby. Fair enough, but not good enough for me. Struggle manifests itself in many forms, but black bloc is too important to exclude.

Heres just one idea of mine. Next black bloc you go to make up a banner of some sort. Have a nice big red/black anarchy flag and on it print a web address. At least in the states most people have internet access at home or the library. If I saw somebody openly defying the police (not an everyday sight) I would be compelled by a great amount of curosity to find the cause of this outrage. If you displayed this address in the right way (front and center, hard to miss, right in the slew of the action) it would be very hard to ignore, maybe even for the mainstream media. From there people would go on to read about the struggle and how it directly related to that day's events. Just one thought, I might start another thread about this, just coming up with methods to get the maximum and most efficient exposure possible.

Cheers comrades.

[enigma2517]

Holy crap I like to ramble....my posts just keep getting longer and longer....look at that thing.

[Decolonize The Left]

Lol enigma, it was long, but I enjoyed the read. I have yet to participate in the black bloc, as I just learned about it today.

However, I do agree with you fully on the need to get the word out about what anarchism really means. I think that we truly need to organize on a national level, but it is a very daunting road ahead.

The website idea is good, but I can't think on the website to put on a banner. Perhaps one that dismatles the myths about anarchism?

Thanks for your comments, I look forward to working further on this issue with you.

-- August

[slim]

The bloc needs an overhaul.

Edinburugh showed us how they operated. They did well. Better than any others in the UK for years. However, they allowed themselves to be targeted by the media as misguided by their principles because the protestors rightly refused to talk to the press.

The blocs did not elect a non-combatatant representative to talk to the media as should have happened.

[bolshevik butcher]

While not denying that there isnt a time and a place for it. I dont know if going out and attacking police at every protest is really the answer. Small gorups of anarchists attacking small gorups of police is not really revolutinary activity.

[resisting arrest with violence]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

[slim]

Nice link RAWV,

I think that the only way to improve the bloc and perfect the tactic, refine it, is to look at its problems. Discuss the solutions on revleft, then tell the world how to do it properly.

Please feel free to debate the topics on this link which is a critique of the tactics weaknesses from the eyes of an anarchist protestor.

Enjoy, happy debating.

http://www.as220.org/jb/politics/black_bloc.html

Do chara.

Slim. HRA.

[Decolonize The Left]

Yes the tactics of the black bloc will need to be refined as the times change, and protests change. I think that site is a great way to express well-thought out arguments, but this thread is easier for off the top of your head ideas.

-- August

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 11:44 AM
The bloc needs an overhaul.

Edinburugh showed us how they operated. They did well. Better than any others in the UK for years. However, they allowed themselves to be targeted by the media as misguided by their principles because the protestors rightly refused to talk to the press.

The blocs did not elect a non-combatatant representative to talk to the media as should have happened.
the bloc does need an overhaul but not in the way you described.
- the black bloc refuses to talk to the media because that person can be targeted by the police.
-they did not do very well in edinburugh because they let the cops stop them, in the case of seattle they got the cops to leave them alone for a bit.
- they did not elect a rep. because he would have been the target of the police and he would have gotten the charges of the militant ones.

[slim]

"- the black bloc refuses to talk to the media because that person can be targeted by the police."

Elect a rep.

"-they did not do very well in edinburugh because they let the cops stop them, in the case of seattle they got the cops to leave them alone for a bit."

There were enough people in the bloc to smash through, after all, that is the purpose of the tactic, to defeat police opposition.

"- they did not elect a rep. because he would have been the target of the police and he would have gotten the charges of the militant ones."

Much risk comes with the position, agreed, but it is a risk that any true anarchist should be willing to take for the good of his or her people.

[Decolonize The Left]

If the rep states that he is a non-participator, he will avoid charges. If he just stands with the media while the actions occur, they cannot pursue charges against him, as you can't charge someone for being a part of a group (well almost, but it's un-Constitutional).

I think they should elect a rep, it would get the real word out about Anarchism, rather than the distorted view so prominent today.

-- August

[slim]

Another good point. The next bloc that protests that doesnt have one of these reps shouldnt deserve recogntion as a bloc for the cause. Just a rogue bloc of thugs out for a fight.

[rikaguilera]

The key to this method of protest (or any for that matter) is organization. I like the idea of a rep to meet, answer questions, or to voice the position of the protesters. The idea of having hundreds of protesters all covered up, is a visual statement that would help any cause to be heard. The fact that the govt (U.S.) targets activist groups and does continue its search into the private lives of protesters, only makes this method even more of a viable way to protest.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yes, but i think that a lot of what we saw at the most recent g8 protests was unfortunately just small gorups of 'anarchists' picking fights with small gorups of police.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 18 2005, 09:50 AM
Yes, but i think that a lot of what we saw at the most recent g8 protests was unfortunately just small gorups of 'anarchists' picking fights with small gorups of police.
i dont think it was neccesarilly that, i think that the cops had the upper hand, and more man power.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yes, but do you support small grups of anarchists fighting police becuse a lot of that happened. I wouldnt say that all protestors did this by any means, in any case it was likely that it was a small minoroty but it did cretainly happen in places.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 18 2005, 09:54 AM
Yes, but do you support small grups of anarchists fighting police becuse a lot of that happened. I wouldnt say that all protestors did this by any means, in any case it was likely that it was a small minoroty but it did cretainly happen in places.
oh it deffinatly happened in smaller areas, because they only needed small groups.

[bolshevik butcher]

So you support small gnags picking fights with police?

[Organic Revolution]

in a resistance model? yes i do. when the smaller groups are part of a bigger fight.

[bolshevik butcher]

I think that theres a time and a place for violence, a but of organization wouldnt go a miss though......

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 18 2005, 10:09 AM
I think that theres a time and a place for violence, a but of organization wouldnt go a miss though......
as in the case of seattle, there were many small groups of anarchists fighting the cops but they were all part of the bigger bloc. they just went were was needed.

[bolshevik butcher]

yes, if it ahd of been like that, however gleneagles was not.

[slim]

O.R.

Tactics differ in different situations. That is how tactics are effective after all.

We must all agree that more organisation is needed, whether from Britain or Seattle. Changes need to be made.

[Decolonize The Left]

True. For the black bloc to be truly succesful, in my humble opinion, they need to organize and engage together. Now I think they do this on a smaller, almost individual level, but not as a whole.

A rep could be the beginning of this. Keep in mind though, that the bloc isn't an organization, it's a tactic employed by protesters.

-- August

[RedFear]

same old thing from the left. They need to organise themselves and, imho, they need to show themselves at more then just the annual protest

for real change to come it needs to be done when its not expected. not when there are already 100's thousands of police on the street stopping everyone every 5 yards, as at the G8

[slim]

How about now. When London is at her highest alert in years. We can lead a massive unannounced march against capitalist imperialism.

More moderate supporters can be gained if its against the imperialist war in Iraq but we must stress that capitalism is the root of it. We can elect spokespeople and have black blocs sorted out.

Ideas?

[Donnie]

I would like to put forward that the black bloc is not just compromised of anarchists for example if you read a first hand account of the Genoa riots you will notice that there were a lot of red hammer and sickle flags in the black block. In one of the books I have on the Genoa riots one person said that there were PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party) members in the black bloc along with Basque nationalists.

The Black Bloc is a great idea at demonstration and summits because it shows confrontation and it shows that our idea’s of class struggle mean business. Many people say that we should be handing out leaflets on the street and recruiting people but this can be done any other time of the year at such a rare moment like the G8 summits its necessary to put down our work and leafleting and debates and get set on with direct action and confrontation against the state and capital.

I don’t want to be stood on the street corner handing out leaflets and waving the red and black flag; I want some revenge on the people who make my life and my family miserable 24/7.

When I was up at the G8 summit I went with a group into Edinburgh to see if I could join a Black Bloc with them on the “Anarchist Festival of Full Enjoyment” however the train was late and by the time we arrive things had already started and it was difficult for our group to join or get a Black Bloc started.


I think that theres a time and a place for violence, a but of organization wouldnt go a miss though......
The Black Bloc are certainly organised they have meetings before hand to discuss on where to start and to what numbers there will be. The Black Bloc does not attack everything it has precise targets like capital etc. For example in Genoa the Black Bloc smashed up the banks and looted stores (this shows a negation for property value). In fact I've read somewhere in a book that they tried to raid a police detention center in Genoa for where the coppers place people who have been arrested in cells.

[bolshevik butcher]

I was really reffering to geleneagles actually. I dont know if i support going around looting shops anyway. Certianly not small buissnesses anyway.

[RedFear]

To be honest mindless vandalism im against too. it has to be directed and (that word again) organised. Why smash up the car of another working person?? as i saw at gleneagles.

Its not the actual black bloc that need to show their face and force elsewhere (its a tactic not a group anyway) but the people that make up the bloc

unless of course they are just there when the opportunity arises to mash a few coppers. in which case they would be next to usless in any (true) revolutionary activity anyway

[bolshevik butcher]

Yes, that is my fear. A lot of these people arent really thinking politically, they just seem to be out there for vengence when there picking fights with cops and smashing shops.

[Organic Revolution]

most black blocs i have been in or seen target corprate stores, and yuppie property.

[RedFear]

Originally posted by organic [email protected] 19 2005, 04:31 PM
most black blocs i have been in or seen target corprate stores, and yuppie property.
can only go by what i saw which was a ford fiesta's number plate being torn off and smashed along with its windows

A ford FIESTA!! hardly the 'yuppies' car of choice

[Organic Revolution]

i didnt really study the recent black bloc at the g8 confrence.

[slim]

Disgraceful. No wonder the tactic is slandered by the media. Imagine a highly organised bloc that worked on the principles of democracy within a group and followed the lines it was created for.

I hardly think that it was a democratic choice for the whole group to target a fiesta. It was not a true bloc and should not be seen as such. A real bloc should be distinguished from the "fake" ones by some sort of uniform that sets them apart from the usual black. Perhaps if they all wore black but everyone has to have a piece of visible green cloth.

That would stop the media targeting real blocs as thugs.

[RedFear]

Originally posted by organic [email protected] 19 2005, 04:37 PM
i didnt really study the recent black bloc at the g8 confrence.
to be fair. there barely was one

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 03:40 AM
Insurrectionary anarchists engage in black bloc activities to create a model of resistance.

Basic sociology really. Suppose there is a group of little kids and they are all disgruntled at some adult (teacher, camp counselor, etc.). All of these children wish to rebel and dissolve this adult's power so that they can overturn some decisions made they feel are unfair. However, often times these kids end up grumbling a lot and otherwise doing nothing. When you don't have that one rogue child that is actually the first to volunteer and directly confront authority with resist the rest of the children (while potentially "rebellious") will obstain from such an act.

The black bloc is meant to create confrontation with the state in probably the most direct way possible. In doing so, they hope to act as a catalyst to give hope and encouragement to others oppressed like themselves.

My 2 cents on this:

1.) Black bloc is necessary. Somebody has to take the first step and confront power head on. Others will follow. A prime example of this was in Seattle, 1999 when people gathered to protest the WTO meetings. Anarchists started a few small street battles with riot cops, however, others quickly joined. People stepped outside of their residences to confront the police who were shooting tear gas into their neighborhoods. Ordinary people that is, those that weren't the most political type (this was evident since they didn't even bother to come out and join the protest in the first place). However, their frustrations manifested themselves when they saw the chance to fight back and take it.

2.) Black bloc is overused and focused on far too much. Creating insurrection is really the last step. Of course we have to display ongoing resistance to the despotism of capital but this must be done in an escalational matter. Save the big fireworks for the grand finale. I think the problem is (as Redstar2000 put very well) is the lack of theoritical clarity surrounding anarchism and thus the aims of the Black bloc. More should be done in educating people about the REAL aims of anarchism. Leaflets and brochures handed out, discussion clubs, street stands are ways of reaching the public. Maybe there is even more creative ways to reach our audience. Either way its important that people realize what we're fighting for and against. For most, anarchism means chaos and no order.

Running around the streets fucking up corporate property and fighting the riot cops is definately more exhilerating but time needs to be taken to inform the community. However, this responsibility is equally, if not more important, especially at this time of record low class consciousness. Take note!

The media will always label us and blood thirtsy street punks with no coherent agenda. Any serious contest to power will always be dismissed. So in that case we need to go full force. Those who dismiss black bloc would rather vote or lobby. Fair enough, but not good enough for me. Struggle manifests itself in many forms, but black bloc is too important to exclude.

Heres just one idea of mine. Next black bloc you go to make up a banner of some sort. Have a nice big red/black anarchy flag and on it print a web address. At least in the states most people have internet access at home or the library. If I saw somebody openly defying the police (not an everyday sight) I would be compelled by a great amount of curosity to find the cause of this outrage. If you displayed this address in the right way (front and center, hard to miss, right in the slew of the action) it would be very hard to ignore, maybe even for the mainstream media. From there people would go on to read about the struggle and how it directly related to that day's events. Just one thought, I might start another thread about this, just coming up with methods to get the maximum and most efficient exposure possible.

Cheers comrades.
that last bit is exactly they way how i got interested in revolutionary leftism :D (though it wasnt a black block but a group of dutch socialists)

[enigma2517]

Yeah

Educate, agitate, organize.

In that order :)

First, we must identify the problem
Then, we must encourage people to take steps to fix that problem
Lastly, we should lend our services in organizing and coordinating demonstrations.

Resist!

[TheReadMenace]

Man, the black bloc is awesome. My friend and I were trying to organise one, but there aren't very many protests down here in Texas...except that one at Crawford Ranch...shit, I'd love to fuck up Bush's property!

But yeah, when education and peaceful protest fail, that is when defensive (and offensive, though we are merely defending ourselves) action entails.

And vandalisation - I agree that it should be aimed at large corporations and yuppie property, and it should have a message. For instance, my friends and I hit up churches and larger stores (both the main root of greed) with spraypaint. One, we almost got arrested for (someone turned us in) because we put messages on bricks through a church window. Messages like: 'Preach faith, not hate' and 'house of liars, den of theives.' One message, they even read on the news. It said, 'A church that doesn't side with the poor is not the church of Christ.'

That's the kind of vandalism I'm down for. Don't just destroy, put a message. I mean, they read that shit on the news, if it's big enough!

Edit: while writing this, I found this: http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?s=3537727

The police called it a hate crime, though, so always remember to be careful and educate more on the side, because the media will always let loose a river full of shit.

Andrew

[Donnie]

I was really reffering to geleneagles actually. I dont know if i support going around looting shops anyway. Certianly not small buissnesses anyway.
Why do you not support looting shops? By looting a shop it shows we don’t care about private property.


To be honest mindless vandalism im against too. it has to be directed and (that word again) organised. Why smash up the car of another working person?? as i saw at gleneagles.
It’s not mindless violence I’ve told you the Black Bloc has specific targets. You’re reading too much of what the bourgeois media is saying. As I said before the Black Bloc is organised if you would read my post.

[Dark Exodus]

Looting shops is an excuse for people to steal, not people showing opposition to private property.

Specific targets as in park benches?

Its this kind of activity that alienates us from everyone else, if people were not as ignorant as then they might see the true reasons (or at least the supposed ones) for this petty vandalism. But until then it will just make us seem abnormal and not worthy of support.

[Enragé]

"Why do you not support looting shops? By looting a shop it shows we don’t care about private property."

Looting small shops hurt the small shopkeeper, people who also suffer under corporate control. Sometimes, these are our allies.

[Decolonize The Left]

Most of the "shops" looted are not shops at all. Rather they are large corporate buildings such as Starbucks, or Borders. And the windows that are broken, coupled with vandalism is also not directed at 'you neighborhood hardware store', rather at banks, and other corporate locations. Most of the time these are tactical attacks, not mindless violence.

As for park benches, they were most likely used as barricades against riot policy or cars.

And speaking of cars, I don't consider bashing in the windows of a Porche or Hummer a crime.

-- August

[Donnie]

Looting shops is an excuse for people to steal, not people showing opposition to private property.
Looting is in a Black Bloc is a form of redistributing the wealth, when a Black Bloc person steals they don't just keep it to themselves they share it out with people,sometimes they may steal water because it is needed by them and the people around them; they don't just steal for the heck of it, they steal for a purpose. You could say looting is a form of “Socialism” in action.


Specific targets as in park benches?
Isn't a park bench public property? Last Time I check it was. Therefore why smash it?
When I say the Black Bloc goes after specific targets I mean it goes after things that produce capital like banks, big corporate supermarkets or the Black Bloc goes after power dominant institutions and individuals like the police etc.

However there have been cases where people in the Black Bloc have trashed up things like phone boxes however people who are in the Black Bloc normally tell them to stop and they do so. The Black Bloc is open to any individual who is against private property and so this is really open to anyone that’s why I said it's not just anarchists who make up the Black Bloc remember it's not an organisation it's a tactic.


Looting small shops hurt the small shopkeeper, people who also suffer under corporate control. Sometimes, these are our allies.
You seem to be saying that big forms of private property are bad and small forms of private property are ok. All forms of private property are fundamentally exploitive because they are produced off the expense of others. The little shop keeper has no problem exploiting others in order to earn a living.
However I understand that while we are struggling for class emancipation we have to live and unfortunately we have to eat and sleep somewhere this is normally at the expense of another person because capitalism is exploitive but there’s a difference between having to survive and just generally exploiting off other for luxuries.

Also it's been a known fact that there have been undercover police in Black Blocs that try to target anything and anyone, they do this to show that the Black Bloc is just a bunch of idiots who go around smashing things up. However there is little that can be done about this the only thing you can do is try to indentify someone who is doing something wrong in a Black Bloc.

[bolshevik butcher]

Arent the petty beugoirse meant to be allies of hte protaletarians? I mean i dont think that they are a legitimate target. Starbucks or mcdonalds are targets, as they are big corporations.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 20 2005, 09:07 PM
Arent the petty beugoirse meant to be allies of hte protaletarians? I mean i dont think that they are a legitimate target. Starbucks or mcdonalds are targets, as they are big corporations.
exactly.

Marx was petty bourgeois, lenin too, probably all of the marxist philosophers were cuz proletarians in those days were mostly illiterate.

[SonofRage]

The petit bourgeoisie are sometimes the allies of the working class. They are dvided, some see their class interests as being with the workers, some with the ruling class.

[scott eats capitalists]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 03:40 AM
Insurrectionary anarchists engage in black bloc activities to create a model of resistance.

Basic sociology really. Suppose there is a group of little kids and they are all disgruntled at some adult (teacher, camp counselor, etc.). All of these children wish to rebel and dissolve this adult's power so that they can overturn some decisions made they feel are unfair. However, often times these kids end up grumbling a lot and otherwise doing nothing. When you don't have that one rogue child that is actually the first to volunteer and directly confront authority with resist the rest of the children (while potentially "rebellious") will obstain from such an act.

The black bloc is meant to create confrontation with the state in probably the most direct way possible. In doing so, they hope to act as a catalyst to give hope and encouragement to others oppressed like themselves.

My 2 cents on this:

1.) Black bloc is necessary. Somebody has to take the first step and confront power head on. Others will follow. A prime example of this was in Seattle, 1999 when people gathered to protest the WTO meetings. Anarchists started a few small street battles with riot cops, however, others quickly joined. People stepped outside of their residences to confront the police who were shooting tear gas into their neighborhoods. Ordinary people that is, those that weren't the most political type (this was evident since they didn't even bother to come out and join the protest in the first place). However, their frustrations manifested themselves when they saw the chance to fight back and take it.

2.) Black bloc is overused and focused on far too much. Creating insurrection is really the last step. Of course we have to display ongoing resistance to the despotism of capital but this must be done in an escalational matter. Save the big fireworks for the grand finale. I think the problem is (as Redstar2000 put very well) is the lack of theoritical clarity surrounding anarchism and thus the aims of the Black bloc. More should be done in educating people about the REAL aims of anarchism. Leaflets and brochures handed out, discussion clubs, street stands are ways of reaching the public. Maybe there is even more creative ways to reach our audience. Either way its important that people realize what we're fighting for and against. For most, anarchism means chaos and no order.

Running around the streets fucking up corporate property and fighting the riot cops is definately more exhilerating but time needs to be taken to inform the community. However, this responsibility is equally, if not more important, especially at this time of record low class consciousness. Take note!

The media will always label us and blood thirtsy street punks with no coherent agenda. Any serious contest to power will always be dismissed. So in that case we need to go full force. Those who dismiss black bloc would rather vote or lobby. Fair enough, but not good enough for me. Struggle manifests itself in many forms, but black bloc is too important to exclude.

Heres just one idea of mine. Next black bloc you go to make up a banner of some sort. Have a nice big red/black anarchy flag and on it print a web address. At least in the states most people have internet access at home or the library. If I saw somebody openly defying the police (not an everyday sight) I would be compelled by a great amount of curosity to find the cause of this outrage. If you displayed this address in the right way (front and center, hard to miss, right in the slew of the action) it would be very hard to ignore, maybe even for the mainstream media. From there people would go on to read about the struggle and how it directly related to that day's events. Just one thought, I might start another thread about this, just coming up with methods to get the maximum and most efficient exposure possible.

Cheers comrades.
good post enigma, i enjoyed the read.

[Decolonize The Left]

Thanks guys for the extensive discussion; it's been really informative.

Continue on comrades.

I'll spark a new discussion along the same lines:
So I think we all agree that the Bloc is necessary, and although mis-represented, vital to the community of protests (or large ones at least).

Then how should this tactic be enlarged? After all, the more people, the stronger the bloc. We have discussed carrying banners with websites, and media reps, but this almost sounds like it's turning into an organization. Should it?

-- August

[slim]

There are three general types of organisation:

Closed membership - these groups are only open to the friends of the original members. Like a cell. Usually around a dozen members with highly defines ideals and may only do one or two actions before disintegrating once the job is done.

Semi-closed membership - this is open to those who the group advertises to. Like closed membership but with more need for extra members. Up to 50 members, perhaps a summer campaign. Less centralised ideologies but with the same goals.

Open membership - open to all. The group advertises where it can so everyone has a right to become involved. The size can be unlimited. The goals are defined and campaigns can last longer. Sometimes the struggle can lose its vivacity but only if it is a flawed or unnecessary cause.

If a black bloc is to become a group, it should be open membership but there should also be a kind of badge worn by the more dedicated protestors who have seen actions before. This can help determine who will adjust into natural leadership positions during riots. Note: leader not ruler.

[Enragé]

"but there should also be a kind of badge worn by the more dedicated protestors who have seen actions before"

oh great, beginning with creating an elite already? just great.

you know what, we should introduce ranks too, like in those cool video games, so if you smashed like 10 windows you'll be a corporal, 20 and a copcar you'll be sergeant....yeahhhhh :D

*plz not the fuckin sarcasm*

[Organic Revolution]

no it shouldnt become an organization, because it would turn into a vanguard. somthing anarchists disagree with greatly.. and slim? badges?? were not hitler youth.

[Dark Exodus]

Looting is in a Black Bloc is a form of redistributing the wealth, when a Black Bloc person steals they don't just keep it to themselves they share it out with people,sometimes they may steal water because it is needed by them and the people around them; they don't just steal for the heck of it, they steal for a purpose. You could say looting is a form of “Socialism” in action.

Or they could just buy the water and save being demonised by the media (again).

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:41 PM
Another good point. The next bloc that protests that doesnt have one of these reps shouldnt deserve recogntion as a bloc for the cause. Just a rogue bloc of thugs out for a fight.
This kind of second rate nonsense really annoys me.

I'm interested to know who in this thread has ever been involved in a Black Bloc? People talk as if they have an insight into the workings of such tactics or people, when the reality is that you probably haven't go any idea about who they are and what they do.

Talking to the media will achieve what? The media will never portray black bloc tactics in any positive light. The mainstream media has no intention of saying "Black Bloc: Great principles, their fight is against the system of oppression and their tactics are justified." To think that these people who amount to nothing more but agents of the state will explain to Mr and Mrs Smithers how noble Black Bloc are is absurd.

Black Bloc should never ever talk to the media, they are an instrument of state repression and can never be trusted.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 12:30 PM
If a black bloc is to become a group, it should be open membership but there should also be a kind of badge worn by the more dedicated protestors who have seen actions before. This can help determine who will adjust into natural leadership positions during riots. Note: leader not ruler.
Your missing the point completely. First of and foremost, Black Bloc is a tactic it isn't a rebel army of anarchists.

Affinity groups can adopt such methods or not. Anyone who takes up these kind of tactics are usually called Black Bloc. Of course there are regular Black Bloc groups, but it isn't an organisation, it's a method.

Secondly, affinity groups of this kind by their very nature are doing illegal things. Having an open affinity group which is going to attack the police, destroy property intentionally or commit a crime will be infiltrated by the police extremely easily.

What you don't seem to understand is that class war is illegal. The state watch us and they repress us when ever they can. Methods like this are a threat to capital and the authority of the state. We can't just allow anyone and everyone to join affinity groups. If you want an affinity group, start one.

Thirdly, Black Bloc affinity groups are inherently autonomous and should reject hierarchy, especially the "I've been on more actions than you" kind. It's leaderless, it's autonomous and it's about working class people or others who want to fight the state to come together and do that as a solid group - which politically rejects hierarchy and authority.

If you want leaders and hierarchy and structure of this kind, go and join the Revolutionary International Marxists (RIM..haha!)

[Donnie]

Arent the petty beugoirse meant to be allies of hte protaletarians? I mean i dont think that they are a legitimate target. Starbucks or mcdonalds are targets, as they are big corporations.
I think Son of Rage explains it. I have no problem with middle class people joining the proletariat movement however they must reject there class and status. However a shopkeeper has his own business and obviously does not reject his class and status.


If a black bloc is to become a group, it should be open membership but there should also be a kind of badge worn by the more dedicated protestors who have seen actions before. This can help determine who will adjust into natural leadership positions during riots. Note: leader not ruler.
I don't agree with this, the Black Bloc is just a tactic and should not become an organisation. Members should not wear badges because this shows identification for the police. If the police find out what the badges mean and know that only dedicated members where them then the police can go after the dedicated militant protesters. I don’t want to be walking to the beginning of the Black Bloc and being nicked beforehand because the police know I’m a member of the Black Bloc because I wear a badge.
The whole point of the Black Bloc is to provide autonomy for the people wanting to engage in some property destruction.


Or they could just buy the water and save being demonised by the media (again).
So you think that by buying the water the right wing bourgeois media is going to produce an article on us in a good light?

[novemba]

I think that leaders are natural everywhere, but when you start giving them power and creating ranks and establishing a hierarchy that when it get out of hand. There is always gonna be that person that just instintively takes leads a group in times of war, cause that's just how it works. It's dissapointing but in the middle of a street battle you can't sit down and vote on your actions democratically, you don't have time, so someone has to step up and take responsiblity for the group, I'm not say that he should have power over anything, be more like a guide, just pointing everyone in the right direction otherwise it would be chaos, and I know you anarchists don't like that word...

[Decolonize The Left]

Anarchist, I agree with what you said, but Slim was addressing the question I posed earlier:

I'll spark a new discussion along the same lines:
So I think we all agree that the Bloc is necessary, and although mis-represented, vital to the community of protests (or large ones at least).

Then how should this tactic be enlarged? After all, the more people, the stronger the bloc. We have discussed carrying banners with websites, and media reps, but this almost sounds like it's turning into an organization. Should it?

I believe he understands that the Bloc is a tactic, I stated that in the first post of this thread. And I also believe you're correct, that the Bloc shouldn't become an organization.

Zackaria put the point well in aspect to leaders.

-- August

[bolshevik butcher]

Sorry but i reguard most shop keepers in my area as working class. And i dont see how anti-capitalsits should go around attacking them. They are not major targets, most of them only work for themselves as well, so it's not like they're exploiting people.

[Donnie]

I think that leaders are natural everywhere, but when you start giving them power and creating ranks and establishing a hierarchy that when it get out of hand. There is always gonna be that person that just instintively takes leads a group in times of war, cause that's just how it works. It's dissapointing but in the middle of a street battle you can't sit down and vote on your actions democratically, you don't have time, so someone has to step up and take responsiblity for the group
You seem to think that the Black Bloc does not have leadership. In a way the Block Bloc does have some form of temporary leadership.
For example if one Black Blocker knows the area well then it would be in the best interests of the group to follow him to get them out of a sticky situation that could involve getting themselves nicked. It isn’t so much of leadership its basically when there is a sticky situation and someone has a solution then if they don't want to be nicked they can follow him. However the Black Bloc is open to anyone and they don't have to follow the Black Bloc. If someone wants to stay behind with a few people to carry out the attacks and get the risk of getting nicked then they can do that, however if you don't want to be nicked and some individual in the Black Bloc knows a way out of the situation then fine. Also different leadership in the Black Bloc may arise at anytime; for example one person may know a certain way to an area in another part of the city however when they get there he doesn’t have a clue where to get to the next point however another Black Blocker may know and so he can lead them onto the next point or target and then maybe another knows another way etc. So you see it’s not a form of permanent authoritarian leadership it’s a case of if you want follow me so that you don’t get nicked you can if you don’t and you want to stay behind and defend the barricade then you can


Sorry but i reguard most shop keepers in my area as working class. And i dont see how anti-capitalsits should go around attacking them. They are not major targets, most of them only work for themselves as well, so it's not like they're exploiting people.
Besides the shop keepers don't get attacked, its not like a Black Bloc comes running into the shop and trashes everything it more like a "snatch the water and get out of here situation". However with the banks, the Black Bloc has keen interests on trashing them up because they produce a lot of capital.

I would say a shop keeper is petty-bourgeois because he has his own autonomy to do what he wants; he can employ and sack people when he wants.

[Decolonize The Left]

Donnie has a good point, the strength of the Black Bloc lies in its versitility. With no hierarchy, adaptation is organic and continuous. It also allows for the increase or decrease of participants at any time, which can both help and hurt, but often works for the better.

-- August

[bolshevik butcher]

Ok, but i still dont support steeling from a small local buissness. I can see the arguemtns for big companies but not local shops.

[slim]

"I don't agree with this, the Black Bloc is just a tactic and should not become an organisation. Members should not wear badges because this shows identification for the police. If the police find out what the badges mean and know that only dedicated members where them then the police can go after the dedicated militant protesters. I don’t want to be walking to the beginning of the Black Bloc and being nicked beforehand because the police know I’m a member of the Black Bloc because I wear a badge.
The whole point of the Black Bloc is to provide autonomy for the people wanting to engage in some property destruction."

The police will know your in the bloc by wearing black from head to toe.

[Dark Exodus]

So you think that by buying the water the right wing bourgeois media is going to produce an article on us in a good light?

Erm... No, I think that by not looting water the bourgeois media is not going to have as much ammunition.

[Decolonize The Left]

Erm... No, I think that by not looting water the bourgeois media is not going to have as much ammunition.

Wishful thinking. The media will always have ammunition against anarchists/communists. And if they don't have any concrete ammunition, they'll just make some up, and the people will believe it too.

Stealing water doesn't fuel their fire, their capitalist interests do.


Ok, but i still dont support steeling from a small local buissness. I can see the arguemtns for big companies but not local shops.

I agree. Like I said before, the local hardware store owner isn't a capitalist thug. Wal-Mart? Go for it. Starbucks? Ditto. Jack's Hardware Store (est. 1886)? Think twice. Local businesses are just like other workers, just with a bit more capital. They just want a simple life, with enough food and drink, and to be able to shelter their family. If they make this money through a business, so be it, you can't piss and moan that they arn't in absolute poverty.

-- August

[bur372]

the idea of having a website is a good idea. But it is true that whenever the black bloc go and destroy some propety the media will label them as nihilists.

Perphaps the black bloc can show people the other traits of anarchisim. instead of just propety destruction. Maybe they could just stand in a mall or nike town and give out flowers to everyone even the media wouldn't be able to demonise that. they could then put up banners about their aims and the website talk to people and give out there manifestos.

Something really surreal would grab the attention of the people.

[Donnie]

The police will know your in the bloc by wearing black from head to toe.
Yes but they'd know that if I was in a Black Bloc they’d know I’m one of the dedicated ones and go after me.

Also the police can't nick you just for wearing black. A lot of people where black at demo's and are not in the Black Bloc and a lot of people who don’t wear black are not in the Black Bloc. It's up to you if you want to wear Black in the Black Bloc, but it's advised if you do else you have the chance of getting nicked easier.


the idea of having a website is a good idea. But it is true that whenever the black bloc go and destroy some propety the media will label them as nihilists.
I remember up at the G8 when the newspapers called the anarchists "The anarchist hate mob" lol.


Perphaps the black bloc can show people the other traits of anarchisim. instead of just propety destruction. Maybe they could just stand in a mall or nike town and give out flowers to everyone even the media wouldn't be able to demonise that. they could then put up banners about their aims and the website talk to people and give out there manifestos.
This is what the anarchists do most of the time when there is no summit on. I don't think we give out flowers but we give out anarchist literature and set up stalls.

[saint max]

This debate has been a very good argument why we should not share anti-authoritarian tactics with marxists...

tutti bianche, yabasta, disobediente have authoritarian leadership, and create spectacles--parodies of real struggle, while litterally kicking out radicals in their ranks who want to actually fight.

I'm not going to even respond to most of the above nonsense. I think the create a situation cat, and clenched fist have done enough. But let's talk about looting

Looting and property destruction is quite possibly the most interesting anti-capitalist tactic. Infact it's probably the most effective anti-capitalist propaganda of the deed. Obviously, it's a negation of private property as well an unlawful act, and thus seems pretty liberatory. The insurgent or the revolutionary (if that's what yer in to) has the ability not only to set an example how to live, but as well find a way of seizing the existant and appropriating it for our own good. The BPP understood this, and it's what sets apart those who struggle by any means for survival and those who moralize. dig?

story time.
While on an anti-election day demo in the states we were less a protest and more an unruly mob. A grip of younger poorer thugish kids joined us. One of the kids at one point said "If any of these crazy white folks smash some windows, I'm getting me some new shoes" Later on when the white liberals, and anarcho-liberals, that some how found their way into an event that was advertised essentially as a riot, were trying to stop masked youth (not really a black bloc) from setting some shit on fire, they were right a long screaming "burn that motherfucker!"

My point is people like me and in similar material conditions, and not like me, want to riot for many reasons. we go on demos, maybe to smash the windows of corp or pig shop, fight cops, tear down fences, etc, or maybe to get some new kicks, or free booze. aint nothing wrong with that. and if you think there is, you're probably not an anarchist. Some of us are no doubt fighting becuase we must, some of us are fighting because we're bored, and some find the fight as an opportunity to seize something they need or want.

Who cares what the media thinks?

Gleneagles bloc was pretty sweet. smashed the computer store!? and in Etown, when we got it on with cops for hours, I don't even know why, but the local yobs got in on it too. that's pretty sweet. Still the swedish hipsters, white-belts and all, beating up some nazis and taking their shirt, takes the cake for odd riot shit.

by the way, yall who talk about how black blocs should be pure and without negative influences (booze, nihilists, yobs, young'uns smashing random shit), have any of you ever kicked it off in greece or italy? "make total fucking destroy" ya know?

cheers,
-max

ps: Do we really even care if a car get's smashed. I mean i might not do it, but i aint gonna shed a fucking tear.

[Decolonize The Left]

Max, I agree with many of your statements. These include looting, rioting, fighting police, busting up corporate venues and locations, banks, etc...

But I think a line should be drawn. Looting is all well and good when it's from people who are hurting others. But like I have said before, "Joe's Hardware Store (est. 1880)" isn't hurting anyone. Why loot his shit? What did he do? He's just looking to make a living as you are. I have no problem burning a Wal-Mart to the ground, shit I'd probably be the first to bust in some windows, but not every store is part of the capitalist class.

Busting cars is all good too, if they're SUVs or Porsches, or some other unnecessary piece of gas-guzzling shit. But some beat up old Honda with "Free Mumia" stickers on the back doesn't need to be punished for your rage.

In other words, I agree, but think some sense should come into play when destroying property.

And I'll also state that I am an anarchist, and I think private property is wrong. But in the world we live in today, many people might feel the same way, but can't help it. I'm sure you live in a house, you might own it or not. But you can't escape capitalism in the first world today, so why punish those who are caught in the system, instead of the system itself?

-- August

[slim]

If we attack the capitalist system on anarchist lines and beliefs then in the end the people will feel alienated and like theyre being attacked by a minority.

Blocs must adapt to the cappie mindset in a way. Cappie drones dont know that burning a wal mart is an attack on the ruling class, they just think your burning a wal mart to the ground for a bit of fun and destruction.

Anarchists need to have their own viewpoint sent to the people in simplistic terms before the cappies use CNN and the BBC to do it first. This requires a representative to send this message, it requires postal messages to keep off the streets if you want to avoid trouble or preferably, postal messages to join the struggle and reasons why.

However, this set message requires all activists to retain some discipline along the lines written in the notes. The black worn by activists should be seen as the uniform of anarchy and should be worn with a sense of duty. The aim first is to gain the people's alliance; second to destroy cappie ideals.

[Decolonize The Left]

Well put Slim, very well put.

-- August

[Commie Rat]

I feel that there is a point that in the Blac Bloc there is a problem that it is the manifestaion of anarchism, man is veiwed by the public as 'that is anarchism' violence, conformity and anger
this leads people to belive that anarchy is bombs chaos and destruction. Eventually leading them away from the cause.
Education is the best weapon we have

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 04:25 AM
If we attack the capitalist system on anarchist lines and beliefs then in the end the people will feel alienated and like theyre being attacked by a minority.
C
Blocs must adapt to the cappie mindset in a way.appie drones dont know that burning a wal mart is an attack on the ruling class, they just think your burning a wal mart to the ground for a bit of fun and destruction.

Anarchists need to have their own viewpoint sent to the people in simplistic terms before the cappies use CNN and the BBC to do it first. This requires a representative to send this message, it requires postal messages to keep off the streets if you want to avoid trouble or preferably, postal messages to join the struggle and reasons why.

However, this set message requires all activists to retain some discipline along the lines written in the notes. The black worn by activists should be seen as the uniform of anarchy and should be worn with a sense of duty. The aim first is to gain the people's alliance; second to destroy cappie ideals.

If we attack the capitalist system on anarchist lines and beliefs then in the end the people will feel alienated and like theyre being attacked by a minority.

not true at all.. it is when people et attacked personally that they feel they are getting attacked by thr minority of a political 'party'.



Blocs must adapt to the cappie mindset in a way.


NO



Cappie drones dont know that burning a wal mart is an attack on the ruling class, they just think your burning a wal mart to the ground for a bit of fun and destruction.

but they could be thinking that it is an attack on the ruling classes institutions, because they have all thought about it.



Anarchists need to have their own viewpoint sent to the people in simplistic terms before the cappies use CNN and the BBC to do it first. This requires a representative to send this message, it requires postal messages to keep off the streets if you want to avoid trouble or preferably, postal messages to join the struggle and reasons why.

they would not work at all. could you see an anarchist sitting at the table on CNN arguing that Capital is bad and that the state needs to be abolished? either do i. and it would be dubbed to look like we were terrorists in other countries.



The black worn by activists should be seen as the uniform of anarchy and should be worn with a sense of duty.

are you serious? that is everything that anarchism is against. conformity, party lines. all of that crap you argue for. if you want sense of duty join the army.. they got better propaganda.