Subcomandante Marcos losing his edge?

[resisting arrest with violence]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050812/ap_on_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050812/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_fat_rebel;_ylt=As3YdWLvW4T7em3GoaZi5k23IxIF ;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Have they given up the thought of revolution?

[London Communist]

The EZLN (Zapatista's) have now given up on any revolutionary change in Mexico.

The only revolutionary guerrilla group now in Mexico is the Popular Revolutionary Army (EPR).

The EPR is more Marxist than the EZLN as the EZLN had their own brand of Indian peasant anarchism.

The EPR is rumoured to be a split from the EZLN.

The EPR was formed in 1996 and have yet to give up on the armed struggle.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The EZLN (Zapatista's) have now given up on any revolutionary change in Mexico.

Why did they give up the idea of revolutionary change?

[Warren Peace]

Why did they give up the idea of revolutionary change?

Because of laziness... I mean reformism.

[Camarada]

Obrador will probably help the Zapatista cause if he becomes President

[Black Dagger]

Orthodox marxists misinterpreting the zapatistas, well i never!


The EPR is rumoured to be a split from the EZLN.

The EPR tried to est. a 'connection' with the EZLN, possibly to gain publicity, but as far as i know it has been denied by the EZLN.

[Hefer]

Obrador will probably help the Zapatista cause if he becomes President

Hey I also hope he will do something that will help the people; but idono, he's a politician, they always speak with two tounges. I jsut hope he turns out to be another Chaves. That way we can starve the Imperialist of oil :D

[black]

The EZLN (Zapatista's) have now given up on any revolutionary change in Mexico.

Correct, they want world revolutionary change.

[London Communist]

Correct, they want world revolutionary change.

The EZLN does NOT want any revolutionary change in Mexico or any other part of the world.

They are reformist sell outs and the best thing that can happen is if the Mexican peasants reject the EZLN and form their own revolutionary group and to rebuild the liberation struggle in Mexico.

As for Marcos, forget about him. Fancy poems and a few quotes are not a reason to look up to him, his betrayal of the revolutionary process in Mexico means we should see him as the class enemy.

[Clarksist]

The same thing happened to Che.

He got fat, less interesting.

But Che got out and worked with another revolution.

Marcos is literally "giving up" on the fight, and going to reformism. Which shouldn't come as a surprise as they have always wanted to "uncorrupt" the government, not change it. So it must have been good when not "corrupt".

So it makes more sense to their goal to political work rather than work with militarism.

[black]

They are reformist sell outs and the best thing that can happen is if the Mexican peasants reject the EZLN and form their own revolutionary group and to rebuild the liberation struggle in Mexico.

Get a life, dumbass. The EZLN has moved to an national and international radical outlook that will work with other left and revolutionary organisations. They are far from being reformist and have already greatly improved the lives of the "peasants" who make up its ranks. Thousands of villages deciding and living their lives in effective if limited autonomy -that's revolutionary!

Ofcourse they aren't forming a party to seize political power...because from an incredibly suicidal and stupid thing to do, it's just not revolution.

[London Communist]

Get a life, dumbass. The EZLN has moved to an national and international radical outlook that will work with other left and revolutionary organisations. They are far from being reformist and have already greatly improved the lives of the "peasants" who make up its ranks. Thousands of villages deciding and living their lives in effective if limited autonomy -that's revolutionary!

Ofcourse they aren't forming a party to seize political power...because from an incredibly suicidal and stupid thing to do, it's just not revolution.

I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the meaning of revolution, as you have no idea what it means!

The EZLN is NOT building links with other revolutionary groups around the world, provide me with evidence of this if you wish to back up your claim.

The EZLN has stated that it is giving up on armed revolutionary activity to go into 'legal' politics. I cannot see how diverting the oppressed into the corrupt world of Mexican 'electoral' politics and the capitalist system is revolutionary in ANY SENSE.

The EZLN does say it does NOT wish to take state power, that is whi it IS counter-revolutionary, for as long as the capitalist state exists in Mexico there will NEVER be a proletarian system there.

The EZLN has made a small area of Mexico that is ruled via village/town council with the direct democracy system, but unless the Mexican capitalist state and it's military forces are crushed, it will only be a matter of time before the reactionary elements of the Mexican ruling class will call out their troops to put an end to the direct democracy in the Chiapas region.

The EZLN is now killing the revolutionary potential of the people in Mexico as they are saying that the corrupt system that is in place can be 'reformed' and made 'less corrupt' and 'more democratic'. All of which is INCORRECT.

I have no respect for any fake left grouping, like the EZLN that diverts the people down the dead end of reformism and captialist 'electoral' politics.

The only thing that would be suicidal in Mexico would be to tell the people to have faith in the capitalist political system, for this hands over the proletariat on a silver plate to the capitalist class.

The EZLN is doing just that!

I said it before and Ill say it again, forget the sell outs of the EZLN, they are not worth any attention and have done nothing of any substance.

Better to help build a real revolutionary group like the EPR and for them to liberate the Mexican people via a Peoples War.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The same thing happened to Che.

He got fat, less interesting.

When did Che get "fat", exactly? :rolleyes:

[fernando]

Before he went to Congo IIRC.

[violencia.Proletariat]

The EZLN has stated that it is giving up on armed revolutionary activity to go into 'legal' politics. I cannot see how diverting the oppressed into the corrupt world of Mexican 'electoral' politics and the capitalist system is revolutionary in ANY SENSE.

what communique was this in? as to my knowledge the zapatistas still do not participate in representative government of mexico, and many times have stated they do not want office power.



The EZLN does say it does NOT wish to take state power, that is whi it IS counter-revolutionary, for as long as the capitalist state exists in Mexico there will NEVER be a proletarian system there.

so what? why would they, they would then become an armed militant group controlling a country, i can see america invading mexico now. the zapatistas arent proletarians either, they are peasants.


The EZLN has made a small area of Mexico that is ruled via village/town council with the direct democracy system, but unless the Mexican capitalist state and it's military forces are crushed, it will only be a matter of time before the reactionary elements of the Mexican ruling class will call out their troops to put an end to the direct democracy in the Chiapas region.

:lol: wow thats funny if you think the zapatistas can defeat the mexican army, have you ever seen pictures of them? with their world war two era sten guns. if they tried to go on the offensive now without full support the mexican (us backed) military would crush them


The EZLN is now killing the revolutionary potential of the people in Mexico as they are saying that the corrupt system that is in place can be 'reformed' and made 'less corrupt' and 'more democratic'. All of which is INCORRECT.

please post evidence of this because i have never read about the zapatistas taking part in the government other than negotiations for some basic indian rights. now would you call a union that demands a pay raise soooooo disgraceful and reformist? probably not. i still dont see where they zapatistas talk about freeing mexico blah blah, they are fighting for indian rights in chiapas along with some other revolutionary struggle. i dont see why they have been committed to freeing the world now :P


The only thing that would be suicidal in Mexico would be to tell the people to have faith in the capitalist political system, for this hands over the proletariat on a silver plate to the capitalist class.

The EZLN is doing just that!

because capitalists trade laws (nafta) arent why the resisted in the first place :lol:


[quote]I said it before and Ill say it again, forget the sell outs of the EZLN, they are not worth any attention and have done nothing of any substance.[quote]

they have brought world attention to revolutionary struggle and have inspired many, probably more than you have ever done or will do as most of our lives are insignificant.

[London Communist]

If you think revolutionaries should NOT make a revolution because they would get invaded by the US, then lets all give up communism and any idea of revolution because according to you we should just give up and accpet the US imperialist system as all powerful and never to be challenged.

Your logic really is saying that we will NEVER have a chance for revolution, then why are you on this forum, go an join the winning side and become a member of the Republican Party.


they have brought world attention to revolutionary struggle and have inspired many, probably more than you have ever done or will do as most of our lives are insignificant.

Who have they inspired???

I don't see ANY other group in the world that has been formed with some sort of Zapatistist ideology.

The other revolutionary groups in Latin American like the ELN, EPR, FARC, MRTA are insipred by Castrosim and Cuba and the Shining Path in Peru are guided by Marxism-Leninism-Maoism.

The Nepali and Phillippine revolutions are Maoist as well.

The EZLN has NO inspiration or sister groups outside of the Mexican Borders.

Unless you EZLN supporters are going to provide some EVIDENCE for this flase claim, as I have already asked someone else to prove this point, then Im going to ignore your claim that the EZLN are 'international'.

[violencia.Proletariat]

If you think revolutionaries should NOT make a revolution because they would get invaded by the US, then lets all give up communism and any idea of revolution because according to you we should just give up and accpet the US imperialist system as all powerful and never to be challenged.

too bad i didnt say that, i said without full support of the nation! which they dont have! therfore a guerilla force trying to defeat the us backed mexican army would be pointless AT THIS TIME, because they dont have the weaponry to defeat the army. they are dirt poor, so they probably dont have the resrources to supply a few thousand person army fighting in northern mexico while trying to defend chiapas at the same time.


Your logic really is saying that we will NEVER have a chance for revolution, then why are you on this forum, go an join the winning side and become a member of the Republican Party.

ok then, why dont you go get a gun and start running across the country shooting capitalists, hmmm thats not gonna work out so well. I believe in revolution, of course i do. But i believe you must be prepared!, which we arent


Who have they inspired???

individuals, including myself. so what if they havent inspired other political groups, are the leninist groups you speak of doing anything other than directly fighting government, i dont see there revolution. im sure a lot of them are considered terrorists, they arent having a social revolution, the people dont support them or their revolutions would work!


Unless you EZLN supporters are going to provide some EVIDENCE for this flase claim, as I have already asked someone else to prove this point, then Im going to ignore your claim that the EZLN are 'international'.

again i ask you to give evidence of how they are so reformist, that way when given credible evidence i can rethink my stance on their movement.


The EZLN has NO inspiration or sister groups outside of the Mexican Borders.

again im pretty positive the ezln is fighting for the rights of indians IN CHIAPAS, nor is it wise to allie yourself with some of the leninist/maoist groups, especially if you dont believe in a fucking dictatorship!. and the practices of some maoist/leninist groups are questionable because of attacks on civilians.

[violencia.Proletariat]

london communist have you not read the last communique sent out by the ezln

heres and excerpt


Therefore...

In the World...

1 - We will forge new relationships of mutual respect and support with persons and organizations who are resisting and struggling against neoliberalism and for humanity.

2 - As far as we are able, we will send material aid such as food and handicrafts for those brothers and sisters who are struggling all over the world.



thats sounds like forging new relationships to me, they also talk about supporting cuba by sending what they can. the whole document seems to speak of gaining a relationship with people on a larger scale maybe and likely for a larger movement in the future.

[London Communist]

too bad i didnt say that, i said without full support of the nation! which they dont have! therfore a guerilla force trying to defeat the us backed mexican army would be pointless AT THIS TIME, because they dont have the weaponry to defeat the army. they are dirt poor, so they probably dont have the resrources to supply a few thousand person army fighting in northern mexico while trying to defend chiapas at the same time.

Guerrilla warfare is VERY different to conventional warfare.

Guerrilla groups are ALWAYS smaller and less well armed than the government forces they fight against.

Look at Iraq, the resistance there is about 25,000 strong with assault rifles and a few RPGs and grenades. The US/UK military occupation is over 160,000 strong with the worlds best tanks, APCs, jet fighters, helicopters and satellites looking at every inch of Iraqi soil from space.

Yet the resistance is making attacks daily and even the US command has stated that they would NOT be able to take out the resistance in Iraq with military means.

The same thing happened in Vietnam.

Guerrillas strike the enemy then dissapear into the environment, they do NOT take on the enemy forces head on, that IS suicide.

I also agree with you on support of a SIGNIFICANT section of the population for revolution.

I think anyone serious on waging a revolutionary guerrilla war should build support BEFORE their armed struggle begins and DURING the armed struggle, so as to build support throughout the revolution.

Building support involves many different tasks, such as:

*Political education campaigns for the oppressed, to help them understand their oppression, the capitalist systems role in their oppression and the need to remove capitalism in order to achieve REAL liberation.

*Social projects, especially in rural communities, like health programmes, educational programmes, farming work and development programmes.

*Building political collectives and forms of people based democracy (direct democracy groups) to give the oppressed their own voice in the revolution.

Whilst the EZLN has done these three methods of building support, they have ONLY aimed it at the region of Chiapas.

Maybe that is a criticism that you can also agree with, that the EZLN never made the effort to build support from ALL of Mexico.

A proletarian or peasant revolution first of has to be nationwaide, spanning the oppressed masses from one side of the nation to the other side.

In my view, a real Mexican revolution of the proletarians and peasants has YET to happen.

As an anarchist Nate, do you agree with the view of most sections of anarchism that anarchists do NOT support leftist nationalisms or national liberation movements on the basis that the imperialist ruling class will only be replaced by a native nationalist ruling class?

If so, why not give a criticism of the EZLN on this basis.

I admire SOME aspects of the EZLN, the biggest aspect I like about them is their direct democracy for towns and villages.

Yet the EZLN is now putting it's work at risk and their demands to a government that would NEVER really carry out their demands as the capitalist class in Mexico.

Given the Mexican governments history of being a puppet to the interests of global capitalism, global corporations and US imperialism, why does the EZLN think they can get anything from these corrupt oligarchs?

When in power, the capitalist state is will ONLY ever negotiate with the working class and the oppressed from a position of strength and thus they would really not negotiate, but dictate to the masses what they should put up with.


ok then, why dont you go get a gun and start running across the country shooting capitalists, hmmm thats not gonna work out so well. I believe in revolution, of course i do. But i believe you must be prepared!, which we arent

I would not support a lone gunner going around doing that.

Support is needed, but the aim must always be revolution. By reformism you are not going to get support as you will get people into struggles that would only end up with the people having to be dictated to on terms the capitalist class will set and thus you create disillusionment amonst the people you are trying to get organised.


im sure a lot of them are considered terrorists, they arent having a social revolution, the people dont support them or their revolutions would work!

I am NOT a Maoist or a Leninist, but I would not call a Leninist/Maoist revolt 'terrorism'.

Just because people choose to fight capitalist oppression with an ideology that we do not agree with 100%, it is still an anti capitalist struggle and I would support the Maoists in Nepal anyday over the Royal dictatorship in that country, just as I would support Castro and the socialist system in Cuba over a US imperialist puppet regime being imposed in Cuba through an invasion or CIA plot.

I have my criticisms of Cuba's system, but over a capitalist system there is no arguement for me.

Also guerrilla wars are usually the LONGEST wars. Don't expect a guerrilla group to take power in a year or so. Just because the Maoists in Nepal have fought for nine years does NOT mean that they are supported less than the royal tyranny in Nepal.


individuals, including myself. so what if they havent inspired other political groups,

I support what you say there.

I never said they did not inspire individuals. I said that Zapatistaism is not a worldwide movement like anarchism or socialism.

The only left wing ideology outside of anarchism, communism and socialism to now start getting an international outlook is Bolivarism.

Again I have my own criticims of Bolivarism, but what started in Venezuela now seems to be gaining support in other parts of Latin America.


again i ask you to give evidence of how they are so reformist,

Look at ANY news source of the EZLN for the past year or look no further than the EZLN own website.

Socialism is revolutionary because they wish to take state power and anarchism has revolutionary content for it wants to destory state power.

Both seek to abolish the old social and political order.

The EZLN only wants reform of the current system in Mexico and to patch up the system that exists in Mexico. That is not revolutionary.


again im pretty positive the ezln is fighting for the rights of indians IN CHIAPAS,

As communists we can support small reforms for racial equality and workers rights, like trade union campaigns and for example the struggle of the black civil rights movement in the US or South Africa.

If the Zapatistas only seek civil rights for the native Indian population, then they are on par with the Martin Luther King movement in the US.

That is of course support their goals, but also see that such goals can only be really achieved and secured under a proletarian society. Thus the Zapatistas could not be seen as a revolutionary movement for the overthrow of capitalism in Mexico.

A anarcho-communist or communist revolution in Mexico would need the support of the industrial working class in the cities of Mexico and the organised rural labour (not the same as the subsistance based peasants that the EZLN work with) in order to bring about a proletarian revolution in Mexico.

There are anarcho-communist groups in Mexico that support this and maybe we should support their efforts for revolution.

[London Communist]

QUOTE
Therefore...

In the World...

1 - We will forge new relationships of mutual respect and support with persons and organizations who are resisting and struggling against neoliberalism and for humanity.

2 - As far as we are able, we will send material aid such as food and handicrafts for those brothers and sisters who are struggling all over the world.





thats sounds like forging new relationships to me, they also talk about supporting cuba by sending what they can. the whole document seems to speak of gaining a relationship with people on a larger scale maybe and likely for a larger movement in the future.

Well I have not seen that last EZLN message of theirs.

I do hope they do that as we all know how 'socialism in one country' failed!

If the EZLN gives up being a nativist geurrilla group to become a revolutionary movement that gets the support from ALL of Mexico and the proletariat and organised rural labour, instead of just Indian peasants, then that is good.

As long as they have some aim for revolution, even if not a guerrilla one, maybe a mass social revolution like the Paris Commune or the 1968 Paris revolt.

I just dread the possibility of the EZLN becoming just ANOTHER left reformist party like the PRD or Lula's PT in Brazil.

[violencia.Proletariat]

you have your points.

but with the guerilla warfare thing, the zapatistas camps are known, its not a city in iraq with tons of civilians where the isurgency can hide. with the technology today they could find the zapatista camps in the jungles and destroy them.

again if you read their last communiques they are talking about spreading the movement, getting into the wider scale of things.

and they still dismiss mexican political parties as bullshit so i dont see how they are so reformist.

as to the leninist/maoist orgs, i also dont consider a leninist or a maoist a terrorist, but some of the actions by some of these groups are against civilians, whether purposley or not(not as in they arent trying to kill civilians but arent taking measures to avoid it), therfore i dont support it.

[London Communist]

as to the leninist/maoist orgs, i also dont consider a leninist or a maoist a terrorist, but some of the actions by some of these groups are against civilians, whether purposley or not(not as in they arent trying to kill civilians but arent taking measures to avoid it), therfore i dont support it.

I do NOT support the purposeful killing of civilians in revolution.

I do support the deaths of fascists, capitalist politicians and corporate executives, for they are the class enemy and in my books NOT innocent in any sense.

However, even the most democratic anarchist group, were it to stage a revolt, would not be able to aviod civilian deaths as people always do end up in the crossfire of any conflict.

However if a revolutionary group punishes the member of the group that killed an innocent and to give compensation or support to the victims loved ones, then that is a correct approach for an armed revolutionary group.

As for the EZLN, what is their stance on the left-reformist PRD party?

If the EZLN does not go into elections and capitalist political systems, yet they are not going to use rural geurrilla warfare, have the EZLN made any SPECIFIC statements on what they plan to do.

Also nate, do you agree with my criticism on the EZLN not going after the support from ALL the Mexican proletariat and rural labour and their current status as a native Indian rights movement?

[violencia.Proletariat]

i would agree with them BUT, i dont know what the ezln is planning on doing, what they said in their last communique is interesting and im keeping an eye out. i agree with you the ezln is not so revolutionary at this time but i still support them, and have not come across any suprising evidence to do otherwise.

[More Fire for the People]

I think we all invested a little too much in the EZLN or we didn't really understand what they were really about.

They were not real anarchist, nor socialist, but they were a group of indigenous rebels that opposed the current Mexican government and were in a state of rebellion until they got their way.

The EZLN really was just more or less a product of its time, and if the Mexican government continues to brutally oppress the indigenious people of Mexico then the EZLN will rise again to defend them but they will probably never do more than that.