Are sexism and racism the cause or effect of

[*Hippie*]

A few decades ago, both women and african-americans were economically oppressed. Did this prejudice occur because of capitalism? Or did the exploitatoin occur because of the prejudices? :huh: Which came first?

[redstar2000]

Sexism and racism are pre-capitalist ideologies that have been heavily modified since the rise of capitalism.

The rational capitalist is uninterested in pre-capitalist ideologies except insofar as they might add to or subtract from his profits.

This inevitably weakens those pre-capitalist ideologies...over time, they lose their reasons to exist. They can be artificially "pumped up" with propaganda campaigns...but unless the drum keeps pounding, they start to fade again.

If support among the masses for a particular pre-capitalist ideology is still substantial, then rational capitalists are quite willing to take advantage of it...deliberately paying minorities or women lower wages, for example.

But, from a historical standpoint, that is a temporary accommodation. When some pre-capitalist ideology fades to a significant extent, the rational capitalist puts on his "enlightened self-interest" mask and discards the prejudice as no longer useful.

Keep in mind that not all capitalists are rational -- they can be just as irrational as the most backward worker, farmer, etc. Thus some of them are fervent racists and sexists to this day.

But that's "bad for business" -- as most capitalists understand now. And in the long run, whatever's bad for business is always "phased out".

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[*Hippie*]

Thanks for your reply Redstar! I love reading your informative posts. I was debating a cappie on another board. I hope you don't mind if I quote you there and of course give you credit.

So do you think in a weird way capitalism had improved those prejudices?
:huh:

[viva le revolution]

Well in my humble opinion, i agree that feminism is a pre-capitalistic notion deriving not out of capitalism but out of religious influence in politics.
However racism is another issue. Rascism only began to take root due to the colonial expansion of europe into the third-world. when the third-world was conquered. Due to this relationship of conquered and conqueror, the races of the wider non-european world were seen as sort of inferior, giving rise to the notion of the 'white man's burden' of civilizing the world.
Colonialism is a direct effect of capitalism, after the industrial revolution in europe, it needed to expand to new markets in it's ever-present quest for cheaper labour and raw materials. Keep in mind that the only colonialist powers were those countries with a capitalist system in place and a parliamentarian or constitutional monarchy in place. Never an agrarian one. Thus the concept of racism and it's outward manifestation was the direct result of capitalism.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by *Hippie*@Aug 12 2005, 10:30 PM
Thanks for your reply Redstar! I love reading your informative posts. I was debating a cappie on another board. I hope you don't mind if I quote you there and of course give you credit.

So do you think in a weird way capitalism had improved those prejudices?
:huh:
It is a rather complicated story -- as viva le revolution points out.

The ideas behind racism are very old -- for example, Aristotle believed that Greeks should not enslave other Greeks...but that enslaving "barbarians" (non-Greeks) was perfectly acceptable. Many ancient and primitive cultures called themselves a name in their language which translated meant "the people"...implying that those outside their culture were of questionable humanity.

But viva le revolution is quite right that modern racism is indeed a product of modern capitalism itself...and arose directly on the foundation of the enormously profitable slave trade. Early colonialism was also part of the "base" for racist ideologies.

Well, what happened? The slave trade ceased to be profitable. The modern form of colonialism (globalization) justifies itself with arguments in which "race" is essentially irrelevant. Once "race" ceases to be connected to profit or potential profit, capitalists lose interest in the matter.

That doesn't mean racism abruptly disappears -- there's always a "lag" between the time an ideology becomes unnecessary and the time it actually does disappear. But eventually it becomes, in capitalist eyes, a damn nuisance...and the heavy ideological artillery is brought to bear on the "outdated" (no longer useful) ideology. By the time the current generation of cops retire, I suspect even the police will have largely given up on racism...at least as a daily routine. It's "bad for business".

The shift against patriarchy is much more far-reaching...and goes all the way back to the very beginnings of class society. To contest the "natural inferiority of women" not only seems to attack "basic human nature" but also challenges every major religion as well. The modern "backlash" against women is real and ferocious.

But it's also doomed. When labor was largely a matter of physical strength and endurance, men had the material advantage over women. Modern technology increasingly renders physical strength and endurance irrelevant. What counts now is skill and competence -- that's what makes money for a modern exploiter.

I can actually remember the shock of seeing a woman doing "a man's job" for the first time. No one is surprised by that now. Women do nearly everything that men do...and do it just as well.

And from the standpoint of profit, that's all that counts.

As in the matter of racism, that doesn't mean that sexism just abruptly disappears...but it no longer has a material basis. Its only really sincere advocates now are Christian and Islamic fascists.

Ideologies lacking a material basis "wither away". Within another generation or two, an open sexist will sound as bizarre as an open segregationist would sound now.

And as disgusting.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

PS: I am always both flattered and happy to be quoted. :P

[Clarksist]

There is also something barely touched on in this.

Religion.

Religion is an "all encompasing" entity during times of stress. When your life is shit, you yearn for a great afterlife. And will bow on your knees if you have a small belief it will work.

During times of stress (say the Depression, the Cold War, or just the mass depression going on today) religion gets there strong upswings.

The unfortunate effect is prejudice against females (especially) and usually there is some racism.

Right now, there is a really big christian movement. Why? Because it is in its death throws. Science is such an overpowering factor, and "good christian parents" impose their beliefs much harder when kids are coming home from the world and going "I think religion is bullshit."

To add insult to injury, there is a sort of depression going on in the modern world. Which is all to blame on capitalism. The daily grind is MUCH worse then it used to be.

Whether you are glued to your tv, computer, etc. these can't make us happy. The urge to gain more and thinking it will make us happy makes us exhausted, and then when material doesn't make us as happy as we thought we would be... we are left really begging questions.

Insert religion.

[*Hippie*]

Thanks for your replies. :)

I have another question regarding sexism. We all can see how sexism and the objectification of womyn in particular is now used to sell many products. It seems the "old sexism" that believed "women should be in the home" is now turning into a "new" form of sexist thought that "women should only be in the bedroom".
I was just wondering if you think this marketing trend is on the rise or the decline and why it seems to be holding on so strong. Many people I talk to buy into it and it is frustrating!

[Clarksist]

I was just wondering if you think this marketing trend is on the rise or the decline and why it seems to be holding on so strong. Many people I talk to buy into it and it is frustrating!


The sword stabs both ways however. As men are harshly judged on both the amount of notches in the bedpost, and on the size of the penis.

Both are really ruining the kids who didn't ask to be so harshly judged.

However, this may be on the uprise. I mean, in the 50's women weren't seen as overly sexual. (although meth was used by so many of them, I'm sure it was INCREDIBLE)

[redstar2000]

Sexuality in the market place is profitable...and will probably become more so.

One reason for this might well lie in the fact that people are actually enjoying fewer sexual encounters than they did, say, in the period 1965-85.

With the threat of STDs, especially AIDS, hanging over everyone's head like a sword, I perceive that people are much more inhibited than they were "in my time". Eros does not flourish, I think, in a climate of fear.

But entertainment and advertising can "fill the gap"...or at least that's the intention. We can "look sexy" even if we almost never "do it"...because it's "too risky".

This has considerable appeal to many people -- if one "dares not" have sex, one can still project a "sexy image"...and marketing is more and more about image and less and less about substance.

Most women (and most men!) cannot "measure up" to these images, of course...but they can often approximate them for brief periods of time -- or at least they imagine they can do so if they purchase certain products.

I'm always amused when I hear people say things that imply or even directly state that their purchase of an SUV is a sign of their "free spirit" and willingness to "find their own path", blah, blah, blah. They have been suckered into buying an overpriced, dangerous, gas-guzzling piece of shit...on the basis of projecting an image.

As reality in late capitalism becomes more and more unpleasant, I expect our commercial "fantasy lives" will become more and more elaborate.

How far and how long this can continue is speculative.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[coda]

Poor women!!! :( She has double duties now. She has to unlock her handcuffs from the bedpost and untie herself.. slip out of the negligee and bondage gear and into a conservative business suit, reapply her red lipstick and fix her hair, go down stairs and fry some eggs and pancakes for the kids.. jump into the gass-guzzling SUV and drop the kids off at school & day care.. arrive at work not a minute late, put back on the handcuffs to take orders from a usually man boss all day, punch the time clock at 5 pm and do everything again in the reverse order. Ho-hum.. what a drag.