Swedish anarchist joining the community.

[BitchBrew]

Hello, Im from sweden. Im cuite a newbe to anarchism, but i have just started to read Bakunin and i am planing to study more (libertarian) leftist litterature. So no I am not a marxist. I hope it isnt just comunists here but allot of libertarins to.

Anyway it is going to be intresting to read and take part of the descutions here.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Welcome

You'll have enough non-"commies" here to talk with

[Djehuti]

Welcome! Also, check out http://www.socialism.nu if you are not aware of it.

[BitchBrew]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 09:47 AM
Welcome! Also, check out http://www.socialism.nu if you are not aware of it.
Well I am now at least, tackar.

[Stormshield]

Ooooh, another swede! Välkommen!

[BitchBrew]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:40 AM
Ooooh, another swede! Välkommen!
Thanks, how many our we by the way? (sweeds?)

[bolshevik butcher]

eh most marxists are libertairan. Im a marxist but find myself similar to anarhcist comerades on libertairan terms.

[Stormshield]

Jag vet faktiskt inte, jag hittade den här sidan ganska nyss själv. Men om du går på den internationella delen av forumet finns det en skandinavisk avdelning, även om den inte är tillnärmelsevis lika aktiv som det "riktiga" forumet, så har du iallafall folk från samma världsdel där!

Är du från norra eller söda sverige, förresten?

[BitchBrew]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 13 2005, 02:12 PM
eh most marxists are libertairan. Im a marxist but find myself similar to anarhcist comerades on libertairan terms.
Marx proclaimed a prolitarian dictatorchip as means to acheve a free world. While non- state proclaiming filosifers like Bakunin wanted to acheve the better sociate by a grass rote revolution based on the workers natural ability to build communitis.

Claiming that marxism would be libertarian is.... well just wrong.



Stormshield:
Jag bor i Uppsala, du då?

[bolshevik butcher]

Eh? You know what this dictatorship isnt like a dictatorship in the normal snese. It would be a place where the workers controlled the means of production, it wouldnt be some sort of stlainist dictatorship that you probably invisage.

[Warren Peace]

Välkommen, comrade! I'm not actually from Sweden but I have family there and I've been there.

What do you think about Sweden as a country? There's a free market, but it seems ethical to me, because taxes are based directly on income and everyone there seems to be in one class. I'd call it ethical capitalism or free market socialism.

[Stormshield]

Yup, Sweden's pretty damn capitalist, at least. While we DO have some great welfare system and shit like that, we're also breaking the world record for quickest razing of it.

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by *****[email protected] 13 2005, 09:44 PM
Marx proclaimed a prolitarian dictatorchip as means to acheve a free world. While non- state proclaiming filosifers like Bakunin wanted to acheve the better sociate by a grass rote revolution based on the workers natural ability to build communitis.

Claiming that marxism would be libertarian is.... well just wrong.



I don't think that Bakunin would reject to PD if he lived today. And remember that it was Bakunin, not Marx, who promoted an elit of 100 revolutionarys to lead the revolution, while Marx pointed out that the liberation of the working class must be the work of the working class itself. Also note that PD is a class dictatorship (and not an absolutist dictatorship or a party dictatorshio).

By the way, I would recomend you to read through this thread:
http://www.socialism.nu/index.php?page=for...=thread&id=5337 (http://www.socialism.nu/index.php?page=forum&section=thread&id=5337)
Marxists and anarchists debating PD...it gets really interesting after a few pages.

[BitchBrew]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 01:17 AM
Also note that PD is a class dictatorship (and not an absolutist dictatorship or a party dictatorshio).
[/quote]
Well then how come marxists like Lenin, Mao and Castro have done the revolution in "party elite" dictatorship manor?



(Ska kolla tråden du skicka)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Lenin changed the theory. In Marx's theory the proletariat dictatorship is one of the proletariat class and not of an elite. Arguebly an anarchist society is a proletariat dictatorship. The workingclass would then supress the capitalist class.

btw welcome fellow anarchist

[enigma2517]

I think it should be duly noted that the majority of anarchists are anarcho-communists.

Followed closely by anarcho-syndicalists. Hell almost the same thing.

Either way do not neglect Marx. His analysis of capitalism is the most scientific work out there and it provides a lot of insight. The thing about dictatorship of the proletariat is off too. Its the dictatorship of a class. Lenin changed it around and said that party need to "lead by line" and represent the working class (although in every case so far its ended up substituting for the working class, not empowering it).

Welcome :)

[BitchBrew]

Well ok, ile try not to be an "anti marxist" then. I do ofcourse have respect for his analys of the capitalistic society. But could you give a more detaild explanation of this so calle "class dictatorship"? Judging by the things I have read about him in the book Im curently reading he wanted to overtrough the goverment and replace it with a communist party representing the working class.

[black]

Hey, comrade anarchist :ph34r:


eh most marxists are libertairan. Im a marxist but find myself similar to anarhcist comerades on libertairan terms.

Shut up.

Seriously, have some political brain food before you make stupid comments like that. Most Leftists are authoriatians azAls, and 99% of "Marxists" are either hardcore totalitarian bastards or hangers-on to some idea of a party that it is by necessity likewise anti-libertarian.

The only libertarian Marxist is a Libertarian Marxist!...who, funnily enough, reject quite a lot of what Marxism is usually about and what Marx himself advocated (not that the latter and former are always the same thing anyway).


And remember that it was Bakunin, not Marx, who promoted an elit of 100 revolutionarys to lead the revolution

No he didn't. Another one;

Shut up. The evidence to back that up is a pile of out of context pish that more than often means the exact opposite to what it's meant to mean. In this case Bakunin talked of a secret society of well-known "brotherhood", even calling it a dictatorship but one in which would only influence the masses to make revolution, because they're the only ones that can. He said repeatedly that "democratic" values were of the upmost importance and that only a movement of equality and freedom could bring about a society of such a manner. I can say A LOT more about this...

[Seeker]

To see what a class dictatorship looks like, take a look at American politics. In theory the place was once a democracy, but the few people who's votes matter are purchased by corporations. All legislative and judicial decisions are made to benefit the corporations while screwing over the working class.

If capital were not THE issue, and a real democracy could be established, workers would be in total control of the political process because there are more of us. It would only be a 'dictatorship' in the sense that the minority bourgeois would no longer be the ones in power and there would be little or nothing they could do about it (other than get a job).

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by *****[email protected] 14 2005, 10:01 PM
Judging by the things I have read about him in the book Im curently reading he wanted to overtrough the goverment and replace it with a communist party representing the working class.
Your book is wrong. Marx never spoke of anything of that kind.
Marx did not want to overthrow the goverment and replace it with another kind of goverment, and he never wanted a communist party to represent the working class.
And when Marx talked about the communist party he did not talk about a formal party, but about what Amadeo Bordiga would call the material party.

"The "League", like the "Society of Seasons" in Paris, like a hundred other societies, weren't but one episode of this history of the party, which spontaneously springs up from the soil of modern society...Talking about the party, I give its historical meaning to this concept." (The letter of Marx to Freiligrath - 1860).

[black]

Marx certainly never advocated Kautskyist - Leninist style politics which were in fact an interpretation and supplement to his critique however, taking his writings into account he was far from being libertarian.

Replying to Bakunin for example, he said that wokers;

"must employ forcible means hence governmental means"

And ofcourse the Mainfesto of the Communist Party says;

"When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class."

Engels was far more clear about what this meant in practical terms which amounted to a dictatorship in the real sense, and he undoubtedly shared the same view as Marx...who by the way meant a Party in the political sense! :rolleyes:

[black]

Marx's Program of State Dictatorship (http://question-everything.mahost.org/Archive/BakuninMarx.html)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Black you are probaly not aware of this, but we are not fond of flaming here. I appreciate your input, but the next time that you flame you'll get a "warning point".

[BitchBrew]

"Flaming"? WTF is that?, probably a stupid question, but hey, if you don't ask you don't know.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Djet knows better, but from an online translator I guess it's: svärande.

[Djehuti]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming

[BitchBrew]

Ok i understand now.