Huge Victory for the People's Army in Nepal

[Red Heretic]

INSN, 9 August - According to a press statement issued by Prabhakar, Commander, Western Division of the “People’s Liberation Army” of the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist), a joint base camp of the Royal Nepal Army located in Pili village of Kalikot districk in the western region of Nepal was attacked on 7 August 2005. According to the press statement, 270 personnel of the Royal Nepal Army were in that base camp. Among them, 159 persons have been killed and 50 persons are still under Maoist capture as prisoners of war.

The statement asserts that the attack started at 5:40 on 7 August and ended at 4:00AM on 8 August, and within the night the base camp was overwhelmed by the rebels. According to Prabhakar’s statement, Maoists have captured one 81mm barrel with 150 rounds of ammunition, one GPMG and 5,000 rounds, 20 LMGs and 12,000 bullets, 70 Insas rifles and 30,000 bullets, 80 SLR and 21000 bullets, two SMG and 3000 bullets, Brauning Pestol-2 and 2000 bullets, two 2-inch Mortar and 200 rounds of ammunition, and very powerful explosive materials. The Maoist’s statement says that 26 rebels including Battalion Commander “Com. Lokesh” (Sarad Awasthi) were killed, and some rebels have been wounded in the clash. The base camp was under the leadership of a colonel of the RNA.

[Red Heretic]

The Official Statement of the CPNM:

Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)
People’s Liberation Army, Nepal
Western Division
Press Statement

Struggling against extra-ordinary complexities compliant with the law of revolution, the Nepalese People’s War, by entering into the strategic offensive, is advancing victoriously to a height of the first plan. The People’s Liberation Army illuminated by the light of MLM and Prachanda Path is attaining military superiority over the white army equipped with imperialist war-technology and training.

In this course, we proclaim with proud that Western Division of the People’s Liberation Army, by starting assault at 17:40 on August 7, 2005 upon the base camp of the white army at Pili in Kalikot, has attained a decent victory at 4:00 in the next morning. People’s Liberation Army has captured highly explosive materials and important war equipments including an 81 mm Barrel with 150 bombs; one GPMG barrel with 5,000 ammunitions; 20 Barrels of LMG with 12,000 ammunitions; 70 barrels of INSAS Rifle with 30,000 ammunitions; 80 barrels of SLR with 21,000 ammunitions; 2 barrels of SMG with 3,000 ammunitions; 2 barrels of Browning Pistol with 2,000 ammunitions; 2 barrels of 2” mortar with 200 bombs etc. Out of 250 of the so-called security personnels, 159 have been annihilated and more than 50 are captured as the prisoners of war.

On the side of the People’s Liberation Army, 26 fighters including Battalion Commissar comrade Lokesh (Sharad Avasthi) have been martyred and some are wounded. The hard effort of the PLA equipped with high morale, sense of sacrifice and the ideology of Prachanda path, and the role of the supreme commander Prachanda who guided and inspired by this ideology have had an important role to achieve this victory. The well wishes of anti-despotic political forces too had inspired for this triumph. This victory is also the victory against imperialism, feudalism and non-proletarian trends.

We offer heartily tribute to those heroic martyrs who sacrificed their invaluable lives for this important victory. Also, we express heartily condolence to the agonized family members and comrades fighting in arms with a wishing that, may it inspire to grasp the sacrificing culture of transforming epoch by the blood of history. We heartily wish for the fast improvement of health of the wounded comrades. We express heartily congratulations and thanks to the commissars, commanders of different levels, including Division deputy commander comrade Bibidh, who played an important role while preparing this plan of action and its implementation, and fighters, local party and masses from the base area.

Finally, let the revolutionaries grasp the fact that acquiring victory through losses is the law of war! The final victory is definite.

August 8, 2005

With revolutionary greetings!

Prabhakar
Commander
Western Division
People’s Liberation Army, Nepal
CPN (Maoist)

[Ownthink]

Maoist? I know nothing of Mao, although I've heard he was somewhat authoritarian.

[D_Bokk]

Recently I have been looking into the People's Army of Nepal, but I couldn't find anything regarding how they plan to set up their government. Do they plan a system simular to what happened in China or a more democratic nation?

[Red Heretic]

This photo was released with the article:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6369/e7c3238ee8568d1zd.jpg

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 04:27 AM
Recently I have been looking into the People's Army of Nepal, but I couldn't find anything regarding how they plan to set up their government. Do they plan a system simular to what happened in China or a more democratic nation?
The CPNM has stated the contested elections and freedom of speech are both absolute musts for the new socialist republic..

Other than that, there is alot of debate going on within the CPNM about those particular issues.

[Red Heretic]

Another update from Chairman Parachanda:

Chairman of Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist), Prachanda, has said
over 50 security personnel who were captured after Sunday's fierce
gunbattle at Pili security base camp in the remote, mid-western
district of Kalikot are under their control and are safe.



Chairman of CPN (Maoist) Prachanda
In a statement issued on Wednesday, Prachanda said the captured
soldiers were being treated with due respect and that all 52 of them
will be released after following due process at an appropriate time.
He did not elaborate.

Prachanda also denied army's allegations that the insurgents had
summarily executed at least ten soldiers after capturing them. He,
however, did not respond to RNA's allegations that the rebels had
mutilated private parts of some of the soldiers before executing
them.

Latest reports say up to 50 security personnel were killed during
Sunday clashes. The insurgents said they lost at least 26 of their
comrades.

In the statement, Prachanda has also mentioned about his party's
policy towards UN agencies, NGOs, INGOs and International Red Cross.

Meanwhile, National Human Rights Commission on Wednesday has urged
the rebels to treat the security personnel under its control as per
the Geneva Conventions and release them unharmed and without any
conditions. [In the past, the CPNM has been noted for it's humane treatment of captured enemy personel].

[bolshevik butcher]

Has it hit you guys yet that the indian army might well just invade neapal the minute the maoists take over? Mao was exceedingly authauratarian.

[London Communist]

Has it hit you guys yet that the indian army might well just invade neapal the minute the maoists take over? Mao was exceedingly authauratarian.

With that quote, are you saying that the Nepali communists should just give up their struggle and just accept the oppression and poverty that comes with the royal dictatorship?

Peaceful demonstrations have NOT done anything to improve the condititions of the poverty striken people of Nepal nor has they made the royal regime move towards ANY form of democracy.

More or less everyone on this Revolutionary Left shows the upmost respect for Che Guevara and Fidel Castro and their guerrilla war against the Batista regime, yet when Nepali communists carry out a similar guerrilla war against another imperialist backed dictatorship, only a few people seem to support the efforts of the Nepali communists.

I support and hope that the Nepali communists win the war and REMOVE the whole political system that exists in Nepal at the momnet under the royal tyranny.

If India invades, then the communists will fight their troops in a guerrilla war and will hopefully, like in Vietnam, kill enough Indian troops to compel them to leave a socialist Nepal.

[viva le revolution]

I for one hope the Nepal Maoists win. The monarchy needs to go now!
Long live the people's war in Nepal!

[More Fire for the People]

Wonderful, I just hope all of Prachanda's talk of freedom of speech (but for who? -- hopefully only for the proletarian and peasants and maximized to the fullest) is true.

While I'm doubtful real socialism could be developed from Maoism, I see that Mao had some excellent ideas and there could be potential for socialism.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 12 2005, 11:09 AM
Mao was exceedingly authauratarian.
Bullshit. The thing that made Mao stand out so much was that he encouraged rebellion against the state when the state does reactionary, repressive, and unsocialistic things. That's what the entire period of the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976) was all about!

Mao encouraged people to put posters up criticize government leaders and policies! Millions of these posters were put up all over China.

Mao Tse Tung was the most revolutionary, pro-people leader in the entire history of the International Communist Movement.

Mao's ideology (Maoism) is based on the need for criticism of the party, it's policies, and it's leaders! Mao taught both criticism and self-criticism so that incorrect and reactionary lines can be exposed and fought against.

"It's right to rebel!" -Mao Tse Tung

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 11 2005, 09:56 PM
Among them, 159 persons have been killed and 50 persons are still under Maoist capture as prisoners of war.
I have to say this is an improbable ratio unless the guerillas killed prisoners or denied all medical care to the wounded. Wounded normally outnumber killed in combat.

The Royal Nepalese Army is not known for fanatical courage.

[viva le revolution]

You can't really ponder over on those lines. Guerrilla warfare has rules vastly different from conventional positional warfare. Whereas conventional warfare deals with capturing and holding positions of tactical and strategic importance, Guerrilla warfare is not about positions but about numbers. The guerrilla attacks must be swift and fast with maximum effectiveness and lethality. The object of the guerrilla attack is not to incapacitate the fighting force but to harrass it and pick off it's numbers in fast and deadly attacks.
When it comes to guerrilla warfare, the wounded never outnumber the dead. The object is to attack with the object to annihalate not cripple. So thinking along lines of conventional scenarios and warfare is not applicable to a guerrilla situation.

[Severian]

Oh BS. You just pulled that out of thin air.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Severian+Aug 12 2005, 04:28 PM--> (Severian @ Aug 12 2005, 04:28 PM)
Red [email protected] 11 2005, 09:56 PM
Among them, 159 persons have been killed and 50 persons are still under Maoist capture as prisoners of war.
I have to say this is an improbable ratio unless the guerillas killed prisoners or denied all medical care to the wounded. Wounded normally outnumber killed in combat.

The Royal Nepalese Army is not known for fanatical courage. [/b]
Are you done, or do you have some more reactionary drivel to throw at us?

[Severian]

Facts on wounded-to-kiled ratio:
British Medical Journal: (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7207/407)"During the fighting of war the number of people wounded is at least twice the number killed and may be 13 times as high; this ratio of the number wounded to the number killed results from the impact of a weapon system on human beings in the particular context of war. When firearms are used against people who are immobilised, in a confined space, or unable to defend themselves the wounded to killed ratio has been lower than 1 or even 0."

Also BMJ: A high ratio of killed to wounded suggests a war crime (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7207/0/c). That's the title of that medical study.

Wounded-to-killed ratio is typically even higher, if anything, in guerilla war, due to hit-and-run attacks. link (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=984)

Take your pick, are the Maoists lying about the numbers or did they commit a war crime?

[viva le revolution]

Well comrade severian, a guerrilla war and a conventional war are vastly different things. Adifferent style and with different objectives. Conventional warfare has more to do with positional warfare, ie. taking strategic positions like cities and bunkers, while guerilla warfare has more to do with hit and run attacks, aimed at groupings of enemy soldiers and sabotage of targets. Due to the lack of military strength and the lack of munitions, a guerrilla army is not designed for defence of strategic areas, which is why it's main aim is not to capture poaitions, but Harrass the enemy troops and pick them off. I suggest reading guerrilla warfare by che guevara and guerrilla warfare by mao.
The article provided relates to positional warfare between conventional armies. The two forms of warfare are fought differently and have different objactives. The whole essence of guerrilla warfare is quick, lethal attacks with the objective of taking out as many troops as they can, unlike conventional army whose sole purpose is to capture strategic locations.
The reason the conventional forces are accused of war crimes is because their purpose is only in capturing enemy positions not annihilating the enemy, the guerrilla is different, he is branded a terrorist because the whole aim of the guerrilla band is not in capturing and defending positions, but the target is the enemy troops themselves, the guerrilla army is designed for maximum lethality and for inflicting as much damage as possible, not on positions but on the enemy troop concentrations themselves.

[viva le revolution]

Your link quotes Iraq in the same context and tries to state that because the conflict in iraq has a lrge number of wounded thus guerrilla warfare also must have the same ratio. The conflict in Iraq is not Guerrilla warfare, it is urban warfare. Utilizing car bombs and explosives relying on these more than surprise raids and attacks.

[Wurkwurk]

Originally posted by Red Heretic+Aug 12 2005, 07:43 PM--> (Red Heretic @ Aug 12 2005, 07:43 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 04:28 PM

Red [email protected] 11 2005, 09:56 PM
Among them, 159 persons have been killed and 50 persons are still under Maoist capture as prisoners of war.
I have to say this is an improbable ratio unless the guerillas killed prisoners or denied all medical care to the wounded. Wounded normally outnumber killed in combat.

The Royal Nepalese Army is not known for fanatical courage.
Are you done, or do you have some more reactionary drivel to throw at us? [/b]
Cool off Red Heretic, he is stating a nominal fact of war. Call it reactionary if you want to, but in all wars including WWI and the Cuban Revolution the wounded always outnumber the killed, unless of course there is a 'no quarter' policy.

I would REALLY like to know what the Royal Nepalis said about this. And Red Heretic, dont yell at me for saying this, but the Rebels are almost certainly exaggerating. The Royal Nepalis will too when they report about this battle. But its nice to know the other side anyways.

So can anyone find out what they said? :)

[More Fire for the People]

I actually agree with Red Heretic.
I have no beef with Severian but he always seems to look down upon revolutionary activity and praises reformist like Hugo Chavez. But for all we know he could be planning an underground Castroist group -- who use guirella warfare -- like The Militant should (since it claims to be "Castroist").

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Wurkwurk+Aug 12 2005, 10:47 PM--> (Wurkwurk @ Aug 12 2005, 10:47 PM)
Originally posted by Red [email protected] 12 2005, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 04:28 PM

Red [email protected] 11 2005, 09:56 PM
Among them, 159 persons have been killed and 50 persons are still under Maoist capture as prisoners of war.
I have to say this is an improbable ratio unless the guerillas killed prisoners or denied all medical care to the wounded. Wounded normally outnumber killed in combat.

The Royal Nepalese Army is not known for fanatical courage.
Are you done, or do you have some more reactionary drivel to throw at us?
Cool off Red Heretic, he is stating a nominal fact of war. Call it reactionary if you want to, but in all wars including WWI and the Cuban Revolution the wounded always outnumber the killed, unless of course there is a 'no quarter' policy.

I would REALLY like to know what the Royal Nepalis said about this. And Red Heretic, dont yell at me for saying this, but the Rebels are almost certainly exaggerating. The Royal Nepalis will too when they report about this battle. But its nice to know the other side anyways.

So can anyone find out what they said? :) [/b]
I was only getting angry with Sevarian because he intentionally trolls around and tries to attack every tiny thing the Maoists do. He has no genuine care for the objective truth.

I could get less biased arguements from FOX news.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 07:55 PM
Facts on wounded-to-kiled ratio:
British Medical Journal: (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7207/407)"During the fighting of war the number of people wounded is at least twice the number killed and may be 13 times as high; this ratio of the number wounded to the number killed results from the impact of a weapon system on human beings in the particular context of war. When firearms are used against people who are immobilised, in a confined space, or unable to defend themselves the wounded to killed ratio has been lower than 1 or even 0."

Also BMJ: A high ratio of killed to wounded suggests a war crime (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7207/0/c). That's the title of that medical study.

Wounded-to-killed ratio is typically even higher, if anything, in guerilla war, due to hit-and-run attacks. link (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=984)

Take your pick, are the Maoists lying about the numbers or did they commit a war crime?
As Viva La Revolution pointed out, the journal you are linking too refers to warfare between imperialist powers. Imperialist powers like the USA and Great Britain rely on logistics to succeed in warfare. They do not use the same tactics that are involved in guerilla warfare.

For example, compare the guerilla warfare of Vietnam and how it defeated the US imperialist aggressors to the logistical warfare that was used by the Republican Gaurd in Iraq, and how it was easily crushed by the USA's superior logistical strength.

Protracted People's War, and imperialist logistical war are two totally different types of wars, with different tactics and outcomes.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 05:10 PM
I have no beef with Severian but he always seems to look down upon revolutionary activity and praises reformist like Hugo Chavez.
What are you talking about? I suggest you read my posts in the current Venezuela thread.

And of course there's nothing revolutionary about the activity of Khmer Rouge-like groups.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 12 2005, 07:09 PM
As Viva La Revolution pointed out, the journal you are linking too refers to warfare between imperialist powers.
No, it doesn't. It examines a large number of different armed conflicts over many years, including recent conflicts. There have few major inter-imperialist conflicts, and many smaller-scale wars including guerilla wars, over that period.

***

Wurkwurk wrote:

Cool off Red Heretic, he is stating a nominal fact of war. Call it reactionary if you want to, but in all wars including WWI and the Cuban Revolution the wounded always outnumber the killed, unless of course there is a 'no quarter' policy.

Thanks. Yes, anyone who actually knows, well, anything about the subject, would have to say the same.

Incidentally, the same principle can be applied in looking at reports from other conflicts. It's a useful tool for analysis.

Really there's no need to belabor the point further or argue with people who refuse to use their brains and prefer faith to facts.

***

You asked about the RNA's claims, they're saying over 40, in some articles over 50 soldiers killed, and 75 soldiers still missing. They deny that 50 soldiers were captured.
link (http://peacejournalism.com/ReadArticle.asp?ArticleID=4624)

Reportedly this was a road-building camp. The RNA is claiming captured soldiers were killed; in some statements they allege torture. There's supposed to be a forensic investigation. We'll see.

There's also a controversy between the RNA and India started by the ineffectiveness of the RNA and the question of whether India is just indirectly supplying weapons to the guerillas.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:24 PM
And of course there's nothing revolutionary about the activity of Khmer Rouge-like groups.
And that ladies and gentlemen, is why Sevarian is a REACTIONARY. The only thing that the Khmer Rouge and the CPNM have in common is that they were both composed of asian peasants. To profiteer on this (as he always does) Severian heaps all Asian peasants into one huge fucking stereotype.

As has been stated time and time against, the Khmer Rouge said that Maoists were counter-revolutionaries, opposed socialist development, and were in favor of a reversion to a primitive peasant society. Claiming that the CPNM has something in common with a lynch mob is no less reactionary than stereotyping middle eastern people as Islamic fundamentalists.

Severian preys upon revolution while glorifying revisionism. He constantly retorts the same lies over and over, and always takes the side of the oppressor.

[Hiero]

Redherectic can you post the sources.

This is very good news, i learnt about this the other day on the World News SBS. I have also been told by a friend that it has been a long time since the RNA has won a large scale battle.


Take your pick, are the Maoists lying about the numbers or did they commit a war crime?

Tell me whats the bigger war crime, to execute your wounded enemies who are dying and thus save medical resources so they can be used by your comrades and the peasants, or to waste the resources on your enemies and set them free so that only later they will attack you again?

Now i can hardly talk about guirilla fighting, but i at least try to understand the hard choices they have to make. You severian do not, you would rather them be selling shitty newspapers on a corner.

I agree with Red Heretic that you are sterotyping Asian revolutionaries as brutal people with no aim of freedom.

[Red Heretic]

Sure!

The original article was from the International Nepalese Solidarity Network (which is not a specifically Maoist site) (www.insn.org) it actually has a source on it, though most people don't recognize those initials.

The second was sent to me via a forwarded email, but I believe it is also posted on the CPNM's official site: www.cpnm.org

Was there anything else you needed a source for?

[Hiero]

No its just helpfull if you give the excact link to the article, so people can go to the original source.

I need to regular check out that site so i know whats going on.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 10:29 PM
Tell me whats the bigger war crime, to execute your wounded enemies who are dying and thus save medical resources so they can be used by your comrades and the peasants, or to waste the resources on your enemies and set them free so that only later they will attack you again?
And here we move from denial to justification. The two often turn out to be closely linked, irrational though that may be. That is, those who most vehemently deny atrocities are often those most inclined to think they would be justified.

Killing captured enemies is the most self-defeating of all war crimes.

As I said earlier, the Royal Nepalese Army is not known for fanatical courage.
That can easily change, if it becomes known that surrender=death.

For this reason, Cuban revolutionaries have, from the Sierra Maestra to Angola, maintained a policy of decent treatment of captured enemies...and has reaped the benefit in readily surrendering enemies, from Batista's soldiers to the FNLA's.

This is especially important for guerilla armies because of the need to capture weapons from the enemy.

Lying is press releases is also a bad idea, because most people will soon stop believing anything you say.

***

Oh, and unfounded accusations of racism are the desperate resort of people who can't argue anything on its merits. Ironically enough, I pointed this out a while back in a thread where the RCP was accused of racism.

The Communist Party of Nepal(Maoist), like their comrades in Peru's Shining Path, are comparable to the Khmer Rouge in their actions..

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh, so it's ok for nepalese maoists to break teh geneva convention but not the U$ military? THis seems rather hypocritical to say the least. What annoys me about these maoists is that they seem ot be making little or no effort to hoock up with the indutrialised protaletariat in nepal. Also what do you people all hold against chavez? I remember when doing work for hands of venezuela i gae a leaflet to a man form a maoist group and all i got was all this stuff about how i should be supporting the shining path, and how chavez was of no real significnce.

[Red Heretic]

Unfortunately, I have to go to work, so i'll have to reply to the bulk of this later.

However, the CPNM is not fucking executing prisoners, it is not lying, and it is not breaking the Geneva Convention. Jesus christ.

[viva le revolution]

The gist of all of the arguement is that it is based entirely on assumpttions and has been relegated to a mere popularity contest. The killed outnumbering the wounded, people have based their assumptions on that, the maoists have been labelled as khmer-rouge like, just because it is an agrarian movement of guerrillas in south esat-asia. There is no concrete proof of atrocities committed by the guerrillas apart from testimonies of RNA troops and international organizations such as amnesty internationsl(not really reliable).What this boils down to is just because the 'uneducated pakis and peasants' are undergoing struggle they are not worth supporting. What disturbes me personally is that these same critics uphold the cuban revolution, which also was an agrarian movement and waged through guerrilla warfare, but no.. that was latin america, so they MUST be right, this is asia, these people wouldn't know freedom and struggle if it came and bit them on the ass, better for them to stay put and let the big boys play.
'comrades' next time arguing please provide concrete proof, not links to obscure journals, Peacejournalism.com? here is part of that article from a link provided by one of the participants in this discussion:


Weeping relatives cremated the body of one soldier on the banks of the sacred Bagmati river, close to a centuries-old Hindu shrine in a Kathmandu suburb, witnesses said.

Hundreds of people watched a relative of the dead soldier light the pyre according to Hindu tradition. Officials said more bodies were being handed over to relatives.

Oh yes... that's an accurate picture of what's going on there. Wow, such journalism. Please comrade, review your sources, do not post articles and give links to romantic literature and pacifist publications to back up your arguements. what passion in that article *gets misty eyed* * weeps* *chokes* *throws up*

[Red Heretic]

Comparable to the fucking Khmer Rouge? NO!

Does the CPNM take the entire populations in the cities and force them out at gunpoint like the Khmer Rouge did? Hell no!

Does the CPNM ever intentionally carry out any actions against the people? Absolutely not! The CPNM is a party which genuinely defends both the agrarian and industrial proletariat of Nepal, and has correctly based its revolution around the agrarian proletariat that makes up over 90% of the country's population.

I do not step down from my stance that you are stereotyping peasant revolutions to try to create dissent against the CPNM. As far as I'm concerned, you're no better than Bush trying to blame Iraq for the Semptember 11 attacks.

[D_Bokk]

What's this about? :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4151278.stm

Villagers kill Maoist insurgents
Villagers in mid-western Nepal have killed five suspected Maoists after rebels allegedly kidnapped a villager.

The killings of three women and two men took place at Laxmanpur village in Banke district on Saturday.

Local people were reportedly tense and carrying home-made weapons fearing retaliation from the Maoist insurgents.

There have been a number of similar incidents in which villagers have attacked and killed Maoist rebels over the past few weeks.

[Red Heretic]

I'm going to say bullshit until I see a reputable source (the BBC also reported that students who had organized a walk out to hear a Maoist speech had been "abducted." If something like this did actually happen, I'm sure the CPNM will take an official self-criticism on the incident, and take immediate actions to prevent the alienation of the masses.

I do know there was a similar incident to this in 1999 where several peasants attacked the Maoists when they entered their district because they had been told lies by the RNA and did not understand the aims of the CPNM. The CPNM sent several unarmed represenatives to go and talk with the villagers, and to help them understand that the CPNM was not going to do the things that the RNA had accused them of. The same peasants who had attacked the CPNM in confusion and fear actually ended up being won over to the side of revolution.

[Severian]

There've been similar incidents in the past, and not just the past "few weeks".
Here's an article from April. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0405/p06s02-wosc.html) which I think does a pretty good job of explaining what it's about.

Oh, and the Maoists admit routinely abducting students...so that hardly proves the BBC's unreliability. It does show how deep in denial "Red Heretic" is, that he denies the Maoists' misdeeds even when the Maoists admit them.

A past on Nepal thread with numerous links throughout it. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=35386&st=0&#entry1291864457)

[bolshevik butcher]

I have to say the bbc is a fairly reliable source. And i dont see why abducting students is justified. Or breaking the geneva convention, whitch btw youve still not commented on red heritic.

[Red Heretic]

There've been similar incidents in the past, and not just the past "few weeks".
Here's an article from April. which I think does a pretty good job of explaining what it's about.

So let me get this straight, we call you out on having bullshit bourgeois sources, so you instead go and get an article from a reactionary christian magazine?


Oh, and the Maoists admit routinely abducting students...so that hardly proves the BBC's unreliability. It does show how deep in denial "Red Heretic" is, that he denies the Maoists' misdeeds even when the Maoists admit them.

Yes, they admit to routinely everyday hoarding up little kids so they can sexually molest them. (sarcasm)

As has been stated, the CPNM works with the students and organizes walk outs to go watch various speeches and revolutionary cultural programmes. These are not abductions. Does the CPNM admit to helping the high school students leave school to go to the revolutionary programmes? Yeah! However, the CPNM has stated that no youth are forced to attend, and all students have the right to stay at the school if they please.

[slim]

The rebels in Nepal are fighting to be part of China i believe. Or to have a chinese type state with an alliance with them.

For India to invade would be ill advised. Thats where the trouble is. Indian/ western ideas vs. Chinese ideas.

A lot of the rebels are farming peasants so it is likely that this is true.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 15 2005, 05:31 PM
Or breaking the geneva convention, whitch btw youve still not commented on red heritic.
Why would I need to disprove the accusation that the CPNM has broken the Geneva Convention when even the RNA does not claim the CPNM has broken the Geneva Convention?

How am I supposed to respond to stupid accusations that have no actual basis? It would be like me saying to Severian "The SWP molests little kids!" There is not even any real point or basis to attack that statement. It's just fucking stupid.

I responded to all of Severian's post that needed to be responded too.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 06:30 PM
The rebels in Nepal are fighting to be part of China i believe. Or to have a chinese type state with an alliance with them.

For India to invade would be ill advised. Thats where the trouble is. Indian/ western ideas vs. Chinese ideas.

A lot of the rebels are farming peasants so it is likely that this is true.
No. China today (1976-2005) is a revisionist state, not a socialist one. It is opposing the Nepalese revolution, but has also not supported the king because of his ties to India.

[More Fire for the People]

The rebels in Nepal are fighting to be part of China i believe. Or to have a chinese type state with an alliance with them.
No, I remember reading an article that said the Maoist desire a "Southeast Asian Soviet Federation" but I do not think China was part of this federation.


For India to invade would be ill advised. Thats where the trouble is. Indian/ western ideas vs. Chinese ideas.

India doesn't have the power to do so really.

About more dead than wounded, the Maoist engage in guirella warfare which I am sure would lead to more deaths than wounded. Besides, if these members of the RNA do not want to support the Maoist and the Nepali people, then why waste medical aid on them?

[Red Heretic]

About more dead than wounded, the Maoist engage in guirella warfare which I am sure would lead to more deaths than wounded.

Not only that, but the CPNM has stated that it is prepared to engage in tunnel-warfare (like in Vietnam) should the USA or India attempt invade.

[viva le revolution]

It is true, none of the nepalese maoists atrocities are proven nor are they accused of breaking the geneva convention.
China has it's own interests in the region, and would likely try to bring Nepal under their influence and with the recent thaw in relations with India would likely support india to preserve the only 'hindu kingdom' in the world.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 15 2005, 12:46 PM

About more dead than wounded, the Maoist engage in guirella warfare which I am sure would lead to more deaths than wounded.

Not only that, but the CPNM has stated that it is prepared to engage in tunnel-warfare (like in Vietnam) should the USA or India attempt invade.
The Vietnam War was 15 years before I was born and I haven't had post-Civil War US History (History for me the past five years has been a repeat of a study of America from the 1500s to the end of the Civil War), so could you explain exactly what tunnel-warfare is?

[viva le revolution]

To the best of my current knowledge, tunnel-warfare is a means of guerrilla warfare utilizing underground tunnels for the movement of troops and the means of having a secure base, safe from the napalm bombings and carpet bombings, ie. protection from air attack and a fast means of moving troops in relative safety and stealth. This method of warfare was utilized heavily during the Vietnam war.

[slim]

I think that without chance of Indian interference, the nepalese situation will continue as it has done for decades. It looks like a continuation of the Vietnam war's ideas in a different location.

[Red Heretic]

Tunnel Warfare refers to Ho Chi Minh's extension of Mao's revolutionary war strategy of Protracted People's War.

To understand Tunnel Warfare, we first need to understand Protracted People's War.

Protracted People's War is a revolutionary strategy in which both a guerilla army and a political party develop within and depend upon the masses. This sort of revolutionary front build's its political power by depending upon the masses for funds, shelter, and solidarity. By depending upon the masses, the guerilla army is bent to the will of the masses, and actually becomes a revolutionary organization that represents their best interests.

In Protracted People's War, the war is launched with a strategy of strategic defensive. In strategic defensive, the enemy is "brought in deep" to where it is undefended and weak, and then attacked (as in WWII against the Nazis, and the Chinese Revolution). Through this strategy, arms can be acquired through attacking poorly defended police outposts, etc. which both weakens the enemy and strengthens the People's Army. In strategic defensive, decisive battles are intentionally avoided.

When the forces of the people are of equal strategic position, strategic quilibrium is declared. In strategic equilibrium, the primary task is to gain the upper hand and to establish a situation in which the enemy is forced into the defensive. This lasted in Nepal for only about two months because competing dialectical forces cannot coexist equally for an extended period of time.

Finally, strategic offensive is declared. Strategic offensive in which the forces of the people have no over powered those of the enemy, and the chief task is to crush the enemy through decisive battles. This is the stage that the Nepalese Revolution entered in October of 2004.

Protracted People's War differs from standard guerilla warfare in that it intentionally seeks to unleash the masses against the enemy. In PPW, the vangaurd party continually arms the masses both ideologically and physically. It seeks to unleash the fury of women against male oppressors, the fury of oppressed nationalities against their oppressors, and the fury of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie.

The following articles give an explanation as to how this works:

How Maoist Revolution Wiped Out Opium Addiction in China: http://rwor.org/a/china/opium.htm

The Masses vs. High-Tech Weapons: The Defeat of the 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment: http://www.awtw.org/current_issues/iraq_high_tech.htm

---------------------------------------------

So now that we understand this, we can dig into how Ho Chi Minh's tunnel warfare works.

In tunnel warfare, the masses of the entire nation are mobilized for national scale strategic defensive. The defensive location is taken within the underground tunnel networks, which provide a means to quickly and efficiently move troops and supplies all through out the country, which enables the people to compete with the air supremacy of the enemy.

In this sort of strategic defensive, the primary objective is to maximize the losses of the enemy and to spread demoalization among the enemy. However, in tunnel warfare, no matter how long the oppressor occupies, the enemy cannot actually win, because the entire people of the nation it is oppressing are united against it. This combined with the ratio that the invading force will have more casaulties (excluding deaths from bombings) the the people, sets the imperialist invader up for sure failure.

Tunnel warfare is an extraordinary revolutionary strategy that proves that not even the USA and all of its imperialist running dogs can stand up to the might of the people.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 15 2005, 12:25 PM
So let me get this straight, we call you out on having bullshit bourgeois sources, so you instead go and get an article from a reactionary christian magazine?
You frickin' moron, the Christian Science Monitor is a respected bourgeois publication comparable to the New York Times. Even better in its reporting quality, often. Not a church propaganda sheet.




Oh, and the Maoists admit routinely abducting students...so that hardly proves the BBC's unreliability. It does show how deep in denial "Red Heretic" is, that he denies the Maoists' misdeeds even when the Maoists admit them.

Yes, they admit to routinely everyday hoarding up little kids so they can sexually molest them. (sarcasm)

As has been stated, the CPNM works with the students and organizes walk outs to go watch various speeches and revolutionary cultural programmes. These are not abductions. Does the CPNM admit to helping the high school students leave school to go to the revolutionary programmes? Yeah! However, the CPNM has stated that no youth are forced to attend, and all students have the right to stay at the school if they please.

Here it is, on the RCP's site. (http://rwor.org/a/1248/nepal_peoples_war_students_kidnap.htm) Run by the CPN(M)'s official US comrades.

They praise this AFP article as "truthful." And it clearly describes a mass abduction as students...apparently the Maoists are happy with it, 'cause it says the abductees were treated well, not shot the moment they expressed some disagreement, and eventually released. This is called "lowered expectations."

[D_Bokk]

Red Heretic, I would advise you to not become an apologist. I don't claim to know much about the Nepal Maoists, but you shouldn't just support them regardless of their actions. There is no justification too the killing/kidnaping of the Proletariat.

Another fake Communist Regime who will end up oppressing their people will not aid the worldwide Communist movement.

[pastradamus]

Excellant stuff.you've made my day comrade.

[Red Heretic]

You frickin' moron, the Christian Science Monitor is a respected bourgeois publication comparable to the New York Times. Even better in its reporting quality, often. Not a church propaganda sheet.

Sorry, never heard of it.


Here it is, on the RCP's site. Run by the CPN(M)'s official US comrades.

They praise this AFP article as "truthful." And it clearly describes a mass abduction as students...apparently the Maoists are happy with it, 'cause it says the abductees were treated well, not shot the moment they expressed some disagreement, and eventually released. This is called "lowered expectations."

You are taking the RCP's approval of the article out of context. The RCP's approval of the article which is referred to in the summary paragraph is obviously not over the reactionary bullshit about students being "kidnapped" by soldiers, but rather about the part at the end when the student refers to how the Maoists actively seeked criticism from her, and informed her that she was free to leave.

To be honest, I have some very serious questions as to whether the editor actually read the article in full, and have to admit I am rather dissappointed that that reactionary bullshit at the beginning of the article was allowed to be printed in the paper.

If I honestly believed that these youth were kidnapped, I would criticize the CPNM for it. That does not mean however, that the CPNM's program overall is not good. Nearly all socialist revolutions in the past have made mistakes, and it is our duty as communists to analyze whether the majority of the line is good or bad. In the CPNM's case, I would say that the overwhelming majority of the CPNM's line and actions are positive, and I commend them for their tremendous gains in Nepal.

[Leif]

Comrades Severian and Red Heretic, I have read all of your writings on this subject and I find the amount of bickering between you two appalling. While the willingness for imminent revolution between you two appears to be different, the overall willingness to work for a socialist society appears to be nearly the same. Fighting amongst the ranks of the socialists makes it easier for the capitalists to crush us (well, our corporeal bodies anyway). Intellectual discussion is good and healthy, but we must remain togeather to fight the oppression, not fight eachother while the oppression laughs at us. I'm not trying to tell you to not disagree, but try to do so in a way that doesn't make any one of you want to flame the other.

And on a side note, I have found the Christian Science Monitor to be slanted for capitalism.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 15 2005, 10:50 PM

You frickin' moron, the Christian Science Monitor is a respected bourgeois publication comparable to the New York Times. Even better in its reporting quality, often. Not a church propaganda sheet.

Sorry, never heard of it.
Gee, if you don't know anything about the CSM, why not refrain from shooting your mouth off about it?

But then, if you followed that rule, you couldn't post about anything.


You are taking the RCP's approval of the article out of context.

Mind-reading?


To be honest, I have some very serious questions as to whether the editor actually read the article in full,

Assuming the RCP's editors are as stupid as you are?


If I honestly believed that these youth were kidnapped, I would criticize the CPNM for it.

I seriously doubt that. When someone denies as hard as you do, in defiance of facts as complete as yours, they usually go straight from denial to justification. Just as Holocaust deniers all really know the Holocaust happened, and think it's OK.

It's significant that you and Hiero seem to consider each other allies - both attacking me but never each other - even though on questions of fact you're making opposite statements.

You say the CPN(M) would never kill prisoners, Hiero says it would be a crime if they didn't...but it's all good, 'cause you both like them!

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 12:27 AM
Comrades Severian and Red Heretic, I have read all of your writings on this subject and I find the amount of bickering between you two appalling. While the willingness for imminent revolution between you two appears to be different, the overall willingness to work for a socialist society appears to be nearly the same.

No. The Nepalese Maoists, the Shining Path, and their comrades internationally are fighting for is not socialism...unless you consider Pol Pot's Cambodia socialist.

I stand for the self-liberation of the working class. Anything that advances workers' consciousness and organization is good, anything that sets it back is bad.

The Nepalese guerillas are carrying out a campaign of terror against working people and their organizations. Just as the Shining Path did.

This includes abducting, torturing, and killing their opponents from other "Communist" parties in Nepal.

That goes rather beyond "bickering", dontcha think? If you want to decry disunity, start there.


And on a side note, I have found the Christian Science Monitor to be slanted for capitalism.

Yeah, it's a bourgeois paper. You shouldn't believe everything you read in the bourgeois press. Refusing to believe anything you read is just as bad...that way lies conspiracy-theorism, denial of obvious reality, and madness.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 06:27 AM
Comrades Severian and Red Heretic, I have read all of your writings on this subject and I find the amount of bickering between you two appalling. While the willingness for imminent revolution between you two appears to be different, the overall willingness to work for a socialist society appears to be nearly the same. Fighting amongst the ranks of the socialists makes it easier for the capitalists to crush us (well, our corporeal bodies anyway). Intellectual discussion is good and healthy, but we must remain togeather to fight the oppression, not fight eachother while the oppression laughs at us. I'm not trying to tell you to not disagree, but try to do so in a way that doesn't make any one of you want to flame the other.

And on a side note, I have found the Christian Science Monitor to be slanted for capitalism.
I originally coming on to this board had no bicker with Sevarian. However, he has hounded and stalked me and other Maoists onto other forums od the internet and spread his reactionary and sectarian lies in an attempt to hurt the Nepalese revolution. As far as I'm concerned, Severian is no better that Bush and the rest.

[Red Heretic]

Assuming the RCP's editors are as stupid as you are?

There you go big man, retreat to personal attacks when you don't have any valid points, then you'll win for sure.

You sound like an obnoxious playground bully.

After rereading over the article, I now clearly see that the editor never says that the whole article is true, but rather says "It is hard to find news reports that give a truthful picture of the People's War in Nepal, but every once in a while an article in the bourgeois press will inadvertently reveal something about the real situation."

This means that bits of truth slip through all of their bourgeois reactionary bullshit everynow and then. It is similar to the article that ran on the BBC that accidently mentioned that the general strike called for by the Maoists was so popularly supported by the masses that it shut down the whole country.

In the case of this article, it is letting the truth out about how the CPNM actively seeks the criticisms and dissent of the people, and seeks to unify itself with their demands. This is the part the RCP article is talking about:


But the rebels allowed probing and often hostile questions in their discussions with the students.

"We asked why they were destroying the country's economic infrastructure and why they announced the frequent strikes shutting down the country," said 16-year-old Ram Kumar Chapagain.

"They replied they will rebuild the destroyed infrastructure once they come to power and as far as the strikes go, they said they held them to see how popular they (the rebels) are," Chapagain said.

Another student Sanu Kanchha Bhomjon, 18, recounted: "We were asked to participate in an interaction programme and to speak about the rebels, their shortcomings and other complaints against them."

"They listened to us and our grievances against them. Then they explained to us about a people's republic and criticized the political parties of Nepal and the king," he said.

"They said we would be welcome to join their party anytime."

Their release, which the army has taken credit for, though the students and teachers said the rebels freed them voluntarily, was greeted with relief among fearful parents.


No. The Nepalese Maoists, the Shining Path, and their comrades internationally are fighting for is not socialism...unless you consider Pol Pot's Cambodia socialist.

This seems to be Sevarian's favorite lie, because he suses it over and over again no matter how many times I refute it. The CPNM and the Khmer Rouge have NOTHING in common. Their ideology and tactics are in complete, absolute, 100% contrast of each other.

Pol Pot said Maoists were reactionaries. Pol Pot had entire cities forced into camps at gun point.

The CPNM's ideology is Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. They seek the criticisms of the people, and they seek to integrate, depend upon, and liberate the masses of Nepal.

The CPNM's strategy of Protracted People's War has ensured that the party is subject to the will of the people, and if the CPNM is not truely represenative of the will of the people, then it will lose. However, noting the extraorindaily rapid gains of the CPNM and the widespread support for it throughout the countryside, I would say without a doubt that the vast majority of the CPNM's line is correct.


The Nepalese guerillas are carrying out a campaign of terror against working people and their organizations.

It's important to note that Severian is talking about the CPUML of Nepal, a revisionist party. While the CPNM no longer is struggling against this party, I will give a brief explanation as why and how.

Originally, when the People's War was launched, the UML seeked to reserve it's position in parliament. To do this, it sent spies into the CPNM to find out locations and names of guerilla soldiers so that the Nepalese police could come and kill them.

In some cases, as was witnessed by Li Onesto when she visited Nepal Which Can Be Read Here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0745323405/reviews/026-4067233-4200462), UML spies would give the names of entire villages that supported the People's War, and the RNA would come commit a mass rape, murder, and then burning of the entire village. This was not, and still is not an uncommon event in Nepal. These are the so called "workers parties" Severian is talking about.

Nevertheless, the CPNM never carried out direct action against the UML as a whole. Instead, when these cases would occur, the CPNM would gather and release evidence as to why the person being arrested was arrested, and would give the names of actual people who were murdered because of the UML spies. If the spy's actions led to the direct result of the death of a comrade, that spy would be executed. This was not even so much a revenge tactic as it also was absolutely necessary to ensure that that spy did not release more information that caused the deaths of other comrades.

Recently, the CPNM united with the CPUML when the CPUML was attacked by the king (when the King banned parliament), in an attempt to unite with all of the forces that could be united against the common enemy.


Yeah, it's a bourgeois paper. You shouldn't believe everything you read in the bourgeois press. Refusing to believe anything you read is just as bad...that way lies conspiracy-theorism, denial of obvious reality, and madness.

So instead, you take the parts that support your Trotskyite line, and accept those, and then go and reject the parts that reject your Trotskyite line, right?

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 16 2005, 05:46 PM
It's important to note that Severian is talking about the CPUML of Nepal, a revisionist party.
No, not just them, but all the parties in Nepal, other than the CPN(M). There are a large number of different parties in Nepal claiming to be Communist. "Revisionist", BTW, is a meaningless cussword.

Maoist leader Baburam Bhatturai recently promised:

The CPN(M) is prepared to cooperate with the parliamentary parties to fight autocratic monarchy. For this, our party has declared complete cessation of all forms of violence against unarmed persons and leaders and members of other political parties, even if there are criminal charges against them.
Source: Maoist website (http://insn.org/?p=1413)

Which admits what they were doing in the past, against "parties", not just one party. And if the "criminal charges" of being informants were true, why would it be possible to drop them and let informants operate freely? If it's possible to drop them, the charges must have been false all along.

Whether that promise to stop doing it is worth anything...I doubt it. In the past, the Maoists' promises to stop various practices, have not been kept.


While the CPNM no longer is struggling against this party, I will give a brief explanation as why and how.

Originally, when the People's War was launched, the UML seeked to reserve it's position in parliament. To do this, it sent spies into the CPNM to find out locations and names of guerilla soldiers so that the Nepalese police could come and kill them.

In some cases, as was witnessed by Li Onesto when she visited Nepal Which Can Be Read Here, UML spies would give the names of entire villages that supported the People's War, and the RNA would come commit a mass rape, murder, and then burning of the entire village. This was not, and still is not an uncommon event in Nepal. These are the so called "workers parties" Severian is talking about.

If this was true, why would it be possible for the CPN(M) to "unite with the UML" as you claim has now happened?

(Falsely claim, no such unity has achieved. "Leaders of chief political parties of the kingdom have said that co-work with the Maoists is impossible at present because of the marked disparity between the speech and deeds of the group. Speaking at a face-to-face programme at Reporters’ Club Nepal here yesterday, the leaders said the parties could not co-work with Maoists at present opposing the sentiment of their party workers who are still living in afflictions occasioned by the Maoist cruelty and terrorism."link (http://www.gorkhapatra.org.np/pageloader.php?file=2005/08/17/nation/nation3) The seven-party alliance includes the CPN(UML), Nepal Workers and Peasants Party, People's Front Nepal, and United Left Front along with some capitalist parties. The United Left Front-Nepal is in turn an alliance of four parties calling themselves communist.)

And why the hell would the RNA need "UML spies" to learn something so obvious as which villages support the "People's War"? Implausible on its face.

Human Rights Watch asserts something far more plausible:

The Maoists are responsible for a significant number of summary executions of civilians. Often, the executions are preceded by torture of the victims, which in many cases is done publicly in front of villagers and family members. The Maoists tend to target particular individuals for assassination or execution, particularly suspected government informants, local political activists or non-Maoist party officials, local government officials and civil servants, and individuals who refuse extortion demands from the Maoists. The Maoists are also responsible for executions of off-duty army and police officers, often capturing them when they go to their villages to visit family members. In the vast majority of cases, the Maoists officially claim responsibility for their killings, explaining that the executed individuals were “informers,” a vague charge which encompasses any act which defies Maoist dictates. Typically, the Maoists will return to the village of their victim, and inform the family or villagers of the killing. In more high profile cases, such as the murder of Ganesh Chilawal summarized below, the Maoists will post an article on their website describing the murder as a significant success in their “march towards victory.”
source (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/nepal1004/5.htm)

RH vs RH:

After rereading over the article, I now clearly see that the editor never says that the whole article is true, but rather says "It is hard to find news reports that give a truthful picture of the People's War in Nepal, but every once in a while an article in the bourgeois press will inadvertently reveal something about the real situation."

This means that bits of truth slip through all of their bourgeois reactionary bullshit everynow and then.
vs
So instead, you take the parts that support your Trotskyite line, and accept those, and then go and reject the parts that reject your Trotskyite line, right?

Oh, the humanity!

No, I compare different sources, attempt to see what can be repeatedly confirmed, look for cases where stuff is admitted contrary to a source's bias, evaluate the factual accuracy of different sources....this is called critical thinking.

Your method, on the other hand, seems to be to accept anything which is claimed in a Maoist press release or website, and reject anything which contradicts that. When Maoists websites contradict each other, as with the RCP page I linked earlier, you go into convulsions trying to explain it away.

Then you assume I'm as dogmatic as you are, and project your method onto me.

[Leif]

I have seen quite a bit of disturbing news here, having used Human rights watch and Amnesty international to argue for less sexism within UN missions and for various other investigations of human suffering at the hands of captors and landmines, both to me seem creditable. I am for the worker's revolution, but I cannot support needless brutality.

[Xiao Banfa]

Chritian science monitor
no shit- it's ideologically pro-capitalist. But despite it's oxymoronic name it's well respected for it's factual reliability by folks of all ideologies.
Far out, can someone tell me how to insert quoted text- i'm a wee bit stupid

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

you put [ quote ] before it and [ /quote ] after it.. but take out the spaces