religious reactionaries after the revolution

[violencia.Proletariat]

After talking about this with another membe, we were thinking since there is no "Church" in the united states, how will we combat religion/religious reactioanries. In the Spanish Civil War the big church could be linked to those with power so it was easier to fight the church, but there is no big church in the united states to combat. How will we combat religion?

[redstar2000]

One important difference between Spain in the 1930s and western Europe in 2050 or the U.S. in 2100 is that religion will be much weaker in the future...it will not have the terrible grip on people then as it did on the Spanish.

Consequently, it will actually be far easier, in my opinion, to "shut it down" than it was for the Spanish revolutionaries.

I would suggest that we begin with the "elite churches" -- the ones with extravagant cathedrals, arenas, etc. and then descend the class ladder...ending with tiny "storefront churches" and small rural churches.

Using class consciousness as a weapon against organized superstition makes sense. But we have to keep at it...we can't just stop after we shut down the "big dogs"...though we might be able to slow the pace a bit.

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[RASH chris]

My suggestion was to increase support for things like liberation theology and groups like Catholic Worker. I have found CW to be a respectable organization, and I could see it as a revolutionary substitute to traditional christianity.

Of course, ideally, we'd have little to combat, as Redstar said.

[Clarksist]

There is nothing wrong with destroying something which exploits people's deepest fears about death and eternity for money.

Frankly it is best to start right now.

Hell, why wait? Combating the church is in the best interest of church goers, even if at first it seems like we are being "insensitive" because in the long run we are liberating people from living on their knees.

Start now, deface churches, make it hard for the church to continue. Then on top of that, question it everywhere you go.

[violencia.Proletariat]

any ideas of how to go about this though? i mean with the christians ive spoken to even after pointing out flaw after flaw, they still wont accept the fact that they are full of shit.

[redstar2000]

I see nothing to be accomplished by petty vandalism.

But in the U.S. -- and perhaps Australia as well -- I think the "left (such as it is) should be vigorously attacking the Christian fascists.

By that, I mean that every time one of their spokesmen sticks his head up in public, he should be met with a noisy and raucous demonstration.

Ideally, this would be done in alliance with GLBT groups -- who are the main targets of the Christian fundamentalists at this time.


Originally posted by anarchopunkchris
My suggestion was to increase support for things like liberation theology and groups like Catholic Worker.

No...that won't work.

It would be like the German left back in 1930 saying that "we need a progressive anti-semitism to fight the Nazis".

CW is an insignificant sect; liberation theology was just a big hoax...and is evidently now a dead issue in the Catholic Church.

I don't think we should say or do anything that would imply superstition "in some form" is "ok".

It's not.

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[Reds]

Babtists, Catholics, and Jahovahs Witneses are the only real opressive churches in the US.

[STI]

Plus all the other ones, of course.

[RASH chris]

Its so unrealistic to suggest that religion is just going to be shrugged off. And if we attack like you're reccomending then we're just going to alienate ourselves. Remember, communists are godless athiests and we'll never mean anything to Americans because of that.

The objective should not be to combat religion, it should be to sidestep religion. It should be a non-issue. Unless of course we're talking christian fascism, falangists, or some other sort of theocratic ideal, in which case I do think that we should combat it.

But I see no evidence to support the fact that the western proletariat will ever largely embrace anti-religious sentiment.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Aug 10 2005, 08:47 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Aug 10 2005, 08:47 PM) I see nothing to be accomplished by petty vandalism. [/b]
Vandalism could have one benefit; that is, people already distant or discontented with religion might see alternatives. This is the reason that asinine statements like "Satan Rules" are not really helpful because the other effect vandalism has it to provide evidence of the "heathens" that rallies the collective together.
Really; only cohesive and clearly stated strikes can have an effect. Say if you destroyed that ten commandment caravan in efforts to attack evangelical recruiters.


But in the U.S. -- and perhaps Australia as well -- I think the "left (such as it is) should be vigorously attacking the Christian fascists.

By that, I mean that every time one of their spokesmen sticks his head up in public, he should be met with a noisy and raucous demonstration.

Ideally, this would be done in alliance with GLBT groups -- who are the main targets of the Christian fundamentalists at this time.

Yes; sort of the reverse Phelps action.



anarchopunkchris
My suggestion was to increase support for things like liberation theology and groups like Catholic Worker.

No...that won't work.

It would be like the German left back in 1930 saying that "we need a progressive anti-semitism to fight the Nazis".

CW is an insignificant sect; liberation theology was just a big hoax...and is evidently now a dead issue in the Catholic Church.

I don't think we should say or do anything that would imply superstition "in some form" is "ok".

It's not.

I don't really want to encourage any sort of superstition but you must admit RS, that LT does serve a useful function as people look at their dogmas and feel trapped; they can find a "better" religion to escape to, where they might never have left otherwise.

Really; this sort or "reformism" as all reformism, brings a slow death to religion, as more people are able to walk out unfettered.
The problem of course, is that like reformism in general, the slow progression is staled and counteracted by reactionaries; thus the need to fight religious zealots.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by anarchopunkchris+--> (anarchopunkchris)we're just going to alienate ourselves. Remember, communists are godless atheists and we'll never mean anything to Americans because of that.[/b]--emphasis added.

I think what you need to do here is "stand back" and "look at the big picture". If you look at Americans "right now" and then assume that this is the way "they'll always be"...then your pessimism would be entirely justified.

But things do not "stay the same"...they change.

Imagine yourself back in 1955 -- traveling to Las Vegas and making the rounds of the casinos...trying to get a bet down on the proposition that an American state will legally recognize gay marriage. If you could find a shop that would accept your bet, they might give you odds of a million-to-one or even higher. Remember that was a time when homosexuality was a felony...people went to prison for five or ten years!

As difficult as it is to believe, religion is weakening...much too slowly for my taste, of course. The excesses of the fundamentalists are not a "sign of strength" but a sign of desperation...a grim and determined effort to reclaim the power and influence and prestige that they once had and have lost.

They look at western Europe and see their future...and they don't like what they see one bit!

Time is on our side...and we should "stick it to the bastards" whenever and wherever we can.


The objective should not be to combat religion, it should be to sidestep religion. It should be a non-issue.

Maybe it "should" be...but it obviously isn't.

Consider the central core of all superstitious beliefs: obedience to authority. How can people with that "mind-set" make a revolution? And even if they do, what will they do with their revolution other than hand it over to a "revolutionary" despot?

They are used to submitting to their "spiritual" and secular "superiors".

Until that habit is broken beyond repair, they cannot be really free.


313C7 iVi4RX
I don't really want to encourage any sort of superstition but you must admit RS, that LT does serve a useful function as people look at their dogmas and feel trapped; they can find a "better" religion to escape to, where they might never have left otherwise.

Well, you'll recall that heroin was invented as a "cure" for opium addiction and methadone as a "cure" for heroin addiction.

Substituting a "better" superstition for a "worse" one simply evades a solution to the real problem.

There is nothing that suggests that superstition is inherently "incurable" or "insurmountable". It can be beaten. It has been beaten.

And we can beat it.

But only, of course, if we try.

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[KC]

I see nothing to be accomplished by petty vandalism.

Petty vandalism, no. If it is creative and opens the eyes of whoever sees it, then it will have an effect (big lie on that underpass stain was pretty good, as is banksy's new art at the gaza strip).

[Publius]

Petty vandalism, no. If it is creative and opens the eyes of whoever sees it, then it will have an effect (big lie on that underpass stain was pretty good, as is banksy's new art at the gaza strip).

Most of them are uncapable of thinking or using reason.

Have you ever heard of Jack Chick?