Let's Be Realistic And Do The Impossible

[resisting arrest with violence]

Let's Overthrow the State Before Year's End.

We have a war ---that however unfortunate it is for our country, Iraq and for the world--- is very conducive to incite revolution. Wars througout history have given the working class an edge in power struggles. Look at the time when Napoleon III war with Prussia--- the Commune came into being. Russia's entry into WWI gave us the Russian Revolution, The Vietnam war gave us a great opportunity to overthrow the state but we blew it, etc.

[fernando]

A revolution in the US or any other Western nation at this time is impossible, who do you think will join you? Are you going to attempt to get the masses under the 'flag' of socialism? In the US? :blink:

[Decolonize The Left]

Resisting, I would suggest you read the thread in Politics on the "Sniper sap US Moral". In this thread we divered in talk from the sniper to a revolution in the US for several pages. I wrote a very lost post on what I think is necessary for a revolution in the US and I think you would enjoy reading it.

In short, it cannot happen without several things first. Read the post for details.

-- August

[slim]

RAWV,

If you believe in your cause then go for it. Arrange some degree of support and with success will come followers.

Only if you are ready though. Defeat would damage chances of the working class being free in the future.

[bolshevik butcher]

Look, i like your optimism and all, but i think the movement needs seriosu strengthening before trying anyhting like that.

[Lord Testicles]

You will need a lot of popular support before you star a revolution in a western country and in this day and age its not a war that will give us the edge its a economical disaster so be patient comrade our time will come :ph34r:

[novemba]

To all freedom fighters:

The time for change is at hand. Those who feel the same way will join me. And we will begin our walk towards utopia.

[Reds]

give it a 5 years

[Decolonize The Left]

I strongly disagree with mounting any sort of revolution now. It will result in your demise and the destruction of our cause.

-- August

[STI]

Besides all the points that have already been brought up, today's War in Iraq is vastly different than WWI, the Franco-Prussian war, or Vietnam. It's nowhere near the same scale, and there's no conscription.

[slim]

Iraq is not the only war the states are fighting.

They are fighting a global war that costs the U.S. 25% of its budget.

[More Fire for the People]

America is not ready for a political revolution, we need a cultural revolution to overthrow the dominance of hardline conservatism so that people embrace more progressive ideologies.

Only when a good portion of the population (say, 5-10%) is ready for revolution or supportive of it will the time be ready -- and that will be quite some time from now.

[cubalibra]

Wait until they start the draft, then you will have something.

[Des]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 05:31 PM
Wait until they start the draft, then you will have something.
you think they will bring back the draft?

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Des+Aug 11 2005, 11:41 AM--> (Des @ Aug 11 2005, 11:41 AM)
[email protected] 11 2005, 05:31 PM
Wait until they start the draft, then you will have something.
you think they will bring back the draft? [/b]
Do you honestly think people are stupid enough to join the army during a war that has started off worse than Vietnam?

[resisting arrest with violence]

We don't need millions of people on our side. All we need is enough.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by resisting arrest with [email protected] 11 2005, 12:54 PM
We don't need millions of people on our side. All we need is enough.
no we dont need a vanguard.. we need all people support.

[slim]

People im afraid to say act like sheep when in large numbers. Especially against those who have infinate resources and power. If i was a regular citizen with no real political calling then i wouldnt dream of starting a revolution.

A vanguard is needed to help people grasp their true intentions and dreams. It will help them choose revolution.

[bolshevik butcher]

A vanguard doesnt do teh revolution itself, we do need a mass movement, a ngruard can spearhead the movement, but not perform its actions. A political party will never replace the working class.

[viva le revolution]

More than violence, we need education to guide the american proletariat. Any communist/socialist parties should aim not to overthrow at this time but to educate.

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by resisting arrest with [email protected] 11 2005, 06:54 PM
We don't need millions of people on our side. All we need is enough. People need to understand the cause, I've been teaching people I meet about beliefs of the left for quiet awhile now.
Agreed. I think a time may come, within the next few decades though. And the majority may, and probably will, not be on our side. But since when siding with the majority a good thing, since that is in fact how America screwed itself in the first place.

[Che NJ]

Any kind of violent resistence is impossible right now there are too many people against us. If socialist did somehow take power, we would not be a government for the people, because the people don't want us. Our best bet would be to relocate and concentrate our numbers in one place, then just ignore the government and make our own rules.

[Decolonize The Left]

Our best bet would be to relocate and concentrate our numbers in one place, then just ignore the government and make our own rules.

How can you say this? This is such a cop-out. I thought you were all in this to help the millions of people who are oppressed. Not just be selfish and go hide. That's pathetic. I know I'm in this for the people that can't fight. Cause I could easily go with the system and make a lot of money and retire, but that's not what I'm about. I want to help people. Not go live in a collective with a hundred folks while million suffer at the hands of capitalists.

While the revolution will be very, very difficult in the US, it is not impossible. It will just take time, and effort, but I believe we can do it. We need to accept everyone in our cause, as our cause will benefit everyone.

-- August

[Che NJ]

If we live by socialism, we can prove to the world that socialism works, and we will probably attract more followers. I think at this time, it is impossible to remove the U.S. government by force. We just need to start living socialism, not just talking socialism. More people would believe what we are saying if they see it in real life, not just theory. And we are not reomving ourselves from the capitalist society any more than we are now, unless you want to declare our piece of land its own country.

[Decolonize The Left]

Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. You are proposing that we simply move to a remote part of the United States and start a socialist society? I'm sorry but this will not go through with the government, mainl because we will still have to pay taxes etc... And we are trying to establish socialism, which is a form of economy, which makes no sense because we live in a country which has a capitalist economy, and therefore this would inhibit ours...

I'm sufficiently confused, please expand.

-- August

[Reds]

Revolution my not be possible{at this time.} but if the us soldiers in Iraq revolt we could depose bush.

[Decolonize The Left]

An interesting point Reds, although I don't think they know they can revolt...

-- August

[Left-wingist]

Never call it a socialist revolution till the people get hooked on the idea. That is how you do it. You work around using words like communism, socialist and the likes and tell them what would happen. Say to the people "Imagine a world where money didn't matter. Where you are just as good as everyone else. No one got paid more or less than you. Where the only people that ruled where combined together in a council each elected by the people in an election where the votes actually matter." As I like to think before you get them to our side you have to get the hook on them. When they hear the words communism and socialism they automatically think you are a fool and that it won't work. All because they have been fed lies.
I have always believed once you got the support don't start a revolution in just one spot. Have one start on the North West coast. As the capitalist troops move to attack have another elsewhere. Make the army seperate. Make them move towards the center. Surround them as they surround the poor animals that they bring to the slaughter. They move one way apply pressure on their backs. Many would desert the army if they knew they had no chance to survive. Take out the command in Washington. Where will they go? Change the enemy to a wandering mass of confusion.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh, thats what the bolivarians did. And running away to a small area and starting our own little socialsit 'bit'. I've never been a fan of just runing away and buiding communes, and that just sounds ridiculous. It will take a long time to get our message out to teh U$ massess but it is necessery.

[cubalibra]

If the insurgents in Iraq launch a "Tet Offensive" that kills and maims large numbers of American troops, the people will start to revolt. This is what happened after the Vietnam Tet Offensive, when the US was closest to revolution then anytime in our history. This time, the revolution must succeed. The day George W. Bush was "elected" President by the Supreme Court in 2000, I told people that a revolution would take place during his tenure.

[Decolonize The Left]

An interesting point cubalibra, but don't you think that this revolution will be to simply put another republican/democrat in office. Remember, the large majority of the US public is not sympathetic to our cause, or they are apathetic. I would appreciate it if you would expand on this, I'm interested in what you have to say.

-- August

[Che NJ]

People in this country only see things as republican or democrat, they think people like ralph nadar are just nuts or should join one of the bigger parties. When People get angry at government they get angry at the politicians which are an acceptable target of rage, but what they don't realize is that the system is screwing them too. They would just set up the same system with different people in charge.

Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. You are proposing that we simply move to a remote part of the United States and start a socialist society? I'm sorry but this will not go through with the government, mainl because we will still have to pay taxes etc... And we are trying to establish socialism, which is a form of economy, which makes no sense because we live in a country which has a capitalist economy, and therefore this would inhibit ours...
So you pay the fucking taxes. you're still paying less than if you were living with the rest of the population if we can grow our own food and manufacture our own goods. If we made a community self-sufficent we wouldn't "contribute" anything to the capitalist system. But we would still have to use money for some things. Plus, in some parts of the country you pay like nothing in taxes. My uncle only pays $70 a year in property taxes. But then again, he lives in south carolina and you get what you pay for.

[Decolonize The Left]

Ok I see your point, and in theory it makes sense. But hear me now: the American people are more than just capitalists. They have been taught to hate socialism and communism for decades. The mindset of the American is individuality and material consumption. They will not look at this socialist camp as a place of equality, rather as a lack of everything they want in life. They will shun this place, rather than accept it. You are dealing with a way of life, which has been engrained in the heads of every American since they were born. This socialist camp will fail, or will survive with however many people you brought there, and instead of showing the way, your way will die out.

-- August

[Che NJ]

I totally agree with you about the american mentallity, and you're right they probably will hate the idea. In reality it will probably be about as successful as a hippie commune (not very). We would be lucky if the idea spread.
It was just an idea though, you didn't have to try tear it apart like that, I was kind of half kidding.

[eukreign]

You are right. Americans are capitalists and believe in individualistic principles. I myself am in that category and I came to this site to learn and interact, but when I look at your guidlines for using this forum I see:

"This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are a right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back!"

Is this how you plan on convincing people to your side? Good luck!

I will keep my posts in the 'Opposing Ideologies' but I just wanted to bring that to your attention and maybe someone could change the welcome message to be something a little bit more open minded... especially if you want others to open their minds to your cause.

[Decolonize The Left]

I agree. But I think this was in response to a bunch of people who probably abused that priviledge. I don't know what happened, but that's what I assume.

-- August

[Ultra-Violence]

Revolution would be imposible in the states at this current time!
the goverment first of all controls the media and just shoots out anti-comie crap left and right as well as our school system. second of all the only poeple that are un-happy are mostly made up of minotiry groups who have to work 2 jobs to feed thier families every body else is just to dam happy and distarcted by the media for example the terrie schiavo case and jessica lunds ford etc..............

so the only time i see when a revoltuion happaning here in the states is when americas dominance over the world crumbles.

so i basically see only revoltuions starting in third world country's were people are truly miserable! :hammer:

[Decolonize The Left]

Ultra, your last point held the most ground. And not for the reasons you stated.

The reason why a revolution is not possible in the US, is because the majority of the population has something to lose. Be it propoerty, cars, bank accounts, or whatever, they have material goods which they will not want to give up for a revolution. This is partly because of the capitalist mindset, where material goods = power, but partially because it's deeper than that.

We see revolutions in countries where the people have nothing to loose. They have been oppressed to the point where the revolution is the only option. The struggle in Haiti is a prime example. That is not the case here in the US.

Therefore the only option is to educate the public on the horrors of capitalism and hope that with this education comes anger, anger at the establishment. And if this works, then the people will start to see that they have less and less to lose, and they will rise up in revolution.

-- August

[bolshevik butcher]

I think that its a relevant point that when the media exposes corruption in any politian or government agency they treat is a one off and act like this man or woman or these men and women are a disgrace, and fail to comment on the fact that these practises could well be widespread through out the system, or that teh system activley encourage these practises.

[Decolonize The Left]

Not to mention that after something horrible happens, like Rove's little slip, the media is bombarded and saturated with bullshit. Random fucking stories that bear no possible news value, everywhere. They try, with success, to distract the American public from all their fucking atrocities. When was the last time you heard or read about Rove, at all? Why don't we see the coffins coming back from Iraq? Why don't you hear about the economy of the poor, the educational system, social security?

-- August

[*Exodus]

The only way a Revolution would be succesful in the United States would be if the economy collapsed or say they reinstated the draft.

[communist mercy]

I agree with RAWV (love your name by the way). War is the Health of the State but it is also its Achilles heel, don't you guys think? War is a very effective way to get the masses interested in the revolution and to be class conscious. Especially when rich kids get to skip the war and the poor are dying by the thousands.

[Decolonize The Left]

Yes Communist Mercy, war is a very good was to get the public involved in a revolution, but only if the public is informed. Unfortunately, the American public is terribly poorly informed. There need to be pictures of the coffins returning, and massive discussions about how the war is killing innocents, not to mention bringing harm on the very citizens it is purporting to defend. Note that chemical weapons production facilities were discovered in Iraq, and they were built after the war began. It will get ugly unless the public says no.
And this won't happen unless they see why they need to say no, why it is in their interest, because people always operate in their interest.

-- August

Note: Sorry about all the bolds and italics, but emphasis was needed.

[wet blanket]

Alright, I'll get to work on it.

[TheReadMenace]

Originally posted by Che [email protected] 12 2005, 12:12 AM
If we live by socialism, we can prove to the world that socialism works, and we will probably attract more followers. I think at this time, it is impossible to remove the U.S. government by force. We just need to start living socialism, not just talking socialism. More people would believe what we are saying if they see it in real life, not just theory. And we are not reomving ourselves from the capitalist society any more than we are now, unless you want to declare our piece of land its own country.
Man, I totally understand where you're coming from. I've always wanted to do something like that, ever since I got into the socialist/anarchist/marxist mindset.

There is only one problem with it, though. You're still a slave to capitalism, no matter how you look at it, because the government will do everything it can to hold you by the balls.

UNLESS...

Start a commune, completely ignore the government (like you said) and wait for them to pull another Waco, then resist the fuck out of them. The people will see just how fucked up the government is, and hopefully - through education and information - be on our side and stand against the government. Revolt within the commune against the entity denying us freedom.

I totally want to be in a revolution. It doesn't necessarily have to work - the Irish Rising in 1916 failed miserably, but it got the fuckin' point out. Then people woke up and realised what was going on.


Andrew