Tony Blair is a disgrace

[Commandante_Ant]

Tony Blair has decided not to attend the funeral of Robin Cook, a former Cabinet colleague and one time close friend. He has decided that he would rather stay on holiday with his family than pay his respects. This may have something to do with the fact that Robin Cook resigned from parliament, due to his disgust at Blair starting an illegal war and acting as a lapdog. But that is irrelevant, as a former MP in his government, an MP who held an important position, then he really should be at the funeral. With very few fans in Britain, something tells me that this decision will have lost him even more.

[resisting arrest with violence]

Blair is a lapdog and history will not look kindly on him or his dog trainer Bush.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by resisting arrest with [email protected] 10 2005, 02:33 PM
Blair is a lapdog and history will not look kindly on him or his dog trainer Bush.
And after that short interlude...

Yes you're right Commandante_Ant, it is a disgrace. Until the Iraq affair, Robin Cook was one of the most loyal members of Blair's cabinet without ever comprising his principles. He had Blair to do that for him.

Blair should recognise the life and work of a much more intelligent man than he.

[Organic Revolution]

its sick what countries affairs can do to people.

[bolshevik butcher]

Om not cooks biggest fan but i have to say i amdire him for quitting over iraq.

[YoUnG192]

What type of fucking topic is this? Who gives a shit if he won't attend a funeral.

[Decolonize The Left]

What type of fucking topic is this? Who gives a shit if he won't attend a funeral.

There are plenty of topics on this forum, if you don't like this one, don't read it. Don't complain and insult people who do care. Just stop reading after the first post, but please don't leave your ignorant comments everywhere you arn't happy.

-- August

[kingbee]

im sure it isnt all black and white- he might have his reasons for not going.

from what i remember, he hated blair due to iraq, so i'm not very surprised he hasn't gone.

[redstar2000]

Have you ever noticed the whole ritual surrounding the deaths and funerals of "the great"? Even the other "greats" who despised them while they were alive "pay tribute" to the corpse.

Perhaps it's a kind of class superstition -- to speak ill of one of the "great men" risks "disillusioning the masses" in all the "great men".

I think it would have been rather refreshing if Tony Blair has said, "Robin Cook was a back-stabbing bastard and I'm absolutely delighted that he's dead!"

I'm pretty sure that's what Blair thought. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[_nin]

Blair starting an illegal war and acting as a lapdog

Blair is a lapdog and history will not look kindly on him or his dog trainer Bush.
Though i fully agree with these statements i do have to aplaude tony for his statigic thinking. The UK now has a big aleye(sp) in the US now and with the EU not looking to great at the moment (and not happy with tony either) he did a clever thing by helping the worlds most powerful man/country out. Let me make this clear i was in no way supportive of the war in Iraq. who was? and as for Tony not going to Mr. Cooks funeral i think thats disgraceful also he was a good friend and a loyal member to the L. party for years the least tony could have done is paid his respects for those thimes.

[London Communist]

There are plenty of topics on this forum, if you don't like this one, don't read it. Don't complain and insult people who do care. Just stop reading after the first post, but please don't leave your ignorant comments everywhere you arn't happy.

And what right do YOU have to tell other people not to post their opinions that you seem to disagree with.

I DISAGREE with your views on 'pacifism' and your 'concern' for the lives of US/UK troops in Iraq, yet I and others NEVER told you to piss of and not post your views, regardless of how much I disagree with them.

With your posts on the topic of US troops in Iraq and now this post about Robin Cook, you seem to display an unhealthy emotional streak for the lives of our capitalist oppressors.

You tell someone to cease posting when they take the correct Marxist line of NOT feeling any sorrow or sympathy for the oppressive ruling class, yet without fail, you seem to make posts urging us to shed tears and show 'respect' for some career politician and the imperialist troops in Iraq.

Prehaps you should stop posting and go to some other forum, as you don't seem to be a communist of any sort, just another reformist spewing out the failed dogma of pacifism and the pie in the sky belief that we can come to some sort of agreement with our class enemy.

[Intifada]

John McCririck said some nice words about Blair.

Though he is conservative tool.

[fernando]

boo fucking hoo, he didnt go to some funeral, these are all little irrelevant details I think. But okay that is just my humble opinion.

[Decolonize The Left]

And what right do YOU have to tell other people not to post their opinions that you seem to disagree with.

Obviously, you did not read the quote I was referring to:

What type of fucking topic is this? Who gives a shit if he won't attend a funeral.
How is this an opinion? This person is insulting someone who took the time to post an article which clearly many people felt the need to talk about. Therefore I feel that this post is unnecessary.


I DISAGREE with your views on 'pacifism' and your 'concern' for the lives of US/UK troops in Iraq, yet I and others NEVER told you to piss of and not post your views, regardless of how much I disagree with them.

If you disagree with anything I write I ecourage you to discuss this with me through a debate. I wouldn't appreciate you telling me to "piss-off" but if you care to articulate your views, I will be glad to articulate mine.


With your posts on the topic of US troops in Iraq and now this post about Robin Cook, you seem to display an unhealthy emotional streak for the lives of our capitalist oppressors.

Firstly, what is an "unhealthy" emotional streak? Do you know my health condition? And how does being a pacifist seem unhealthy? I think it would keep you alive longer, as you arn't always rushing to war and your death. Secondly, define "oppressors". Certainly you are not talking about everyone who lives in a capitalist society, so are you talking about the soldiers? I think you are. And I don't consider the soldiers to be our oppressors. They are the arm of our oppressors, but the oppressors are the people in charge of the nation. How does a soldier make the slums in the ghettos of our cities? How does a soldier create the wealth inequalities in our nation? Explain that to me, and then you might have a point. For all you know, that soldier may have been born in the ghettos.


You tell someone to cease posting when they take the correct Marxist line of NOT feeling any sorrow or sympathy for the oppressive ruling class, yet without fail, you seem to make posts urging us to shed tears and show 'respect' for some career politician and the imperialist troops in Iraq.

Lol. This is hilarious. OK, again I will show the post I was clearly referring to originally:

What type of fucking topic is this? Who gives a shit if he won't attend a funeral.
How does this show "the correct Marxist line of NOT feeling any sorrow or sympathy for the oppressive ruling class"? Now you write:

urging us to shed tears and show 'respect' for some career politician and the imperialist troops in Iraq
Where have I ever written anything telling people to cry for any of those people? Find it and you have a point. But you don't. Never have I once argued that we should feel sorry for ANY politicians. If you would care to read the thread on "Sniper saps US morale", towards the end I articulate my point of view. You can find my thoughts there. But until then, please don't make bogus claims about me when you clearly do not understand what I am saying.

-- August

[London Communist]

QUOTE
And what right do YOU have to tell other people not to post their opinions that you seem to disagree with.



Obviously, you did not read the quote I was referring to:

QUOTE
What type of fucking topic is this? Who gives a shit if he won't attend a funeral.


How is this an opinion? This person is insulting someone who took the time to post an article which clearly many people felt the need to talk about. Therefore I feel that this post is unnecessary.


QUOTE
I DISAGREE with your views on 'pacifism' and your 'concern' for the lives of US/UK troops in Iraq, yet I and others NEVER told you to piss of and not post your views, regardless of how much I disagree with them.



If you disagree with anything I write I ecourage you to discuss this with me through a debate. I wouldn't appreciate you telling me to "piss-off" but if you care to articulate your views, I will be glad to articulate mine.


QUOTE
With your posts on the topic of US troops in Iraq and now this post about Robin Cook, you seem to display an unhealthy emotional streak for the lives of our capitalist oppressors.



Firstly, what is an "unhealthy" emotional streak? Do you know my health condition? And how does being a pacifist seem unhealthy? I think it would keep you alive longer, as you arn't always rushing to war and your death. Secondly, define "oppressors". Certainly you are not talking about everyone who lives in a capitalist society, so are you talking about the soldiers? I think you are. And I don't consider the soldiers to be our oppressors. They are the arm of our oppressors, but the oppressors are the people in charge of the nation. How does a soldier make the slums in the ghettos of our cities? How does a soldier create the wealth inequalities in our nation? Explain that to me, and then you might have a point. For all you know, that soldier may have been born in the ghettos.


QUOTE
You tell someone to cease posting when they take the correct Marxist line of NOT feeling any sorrow or sympathy for the oppressive ruling class, yet without fail, you seem to make posts urging us to shed tears and show 'respect' for some career politician and the imperialist troops in Iraq.



Lol. This is hilarious. OK, again I will show the post I was clearly referring to originally:

QUOTE
What type of fucking topic is this? Who gives a shit if he won't attend a funeral.


How does this show "the correct Marxist line of NOT feeling any sorrow or sympathy for the oppressive ruling class"? Now you write:

QUOTE
urging us to shed tears and show 'respect' for some career politician and the imperialist troops in Iraq


Where have I ever written anything telling people to cry for any of those people? Find it and you have a point. But you don't. Never have I once argued that we should feel sorry for ANY politicians. If you would care to read the thread on "Sniper saps US morale", towards the end I articulate my point of view. You can find my thoughts there. But until then, please don't make bogus claims about me when you clearly do not understand what I am saying.

August

I have read your posts on the sniper in Iraq who has been taking out the imperialist troops.

You talk of 'nice people are behind those US army helmets' and 'The US troops are our woeking class brothers' and other posts and comments that genarally show that your sympathies are with the dead US troops, as you never mentioned the 'nice people' that make up the Iraqi civilian population.

Anyone who shows any remorse or compassion for those US troops who DO NOT use their position in the military to break ranks with the imperialist system and destroy their capitalist oppressors are class traitors themselves.

There is NO pacifist 'third way' between the different sides of the class conflict. You are with the oppressed masses or the capitalist oppressors and your posts have not really showed that you side with the oppressed workers.

I do SUPPORT those US troops that either desert their officers and flee the US military and I SUPPORT even more those US soldiers who have done 'fragging' (ie: killing their officers and superiors in the military chain of command).

All communist should urge the US army to turn their guns on the American officers and the US government.

Everyone who is at the top of the capitalist system and therefore is our class enemy has to be killed.

They would never compromise or negotiate with the oppressed proletariat, why should we negotiate and compromise with them!

[Decolonize The Left]

You talk of 'nice people are behind those US army helmets' and 'The US troops are our woeking class brothers'

I see you cleverly paraphrased what I said rather than quoting me. Probably because you could not find quotes of me saying those things, and so instead you had to make them up. This just further proves that you did not read in any depth what I wrote. If you did, you would understand my position. I do not support the troops, but I do condemn people who cheer at their death, because many times these troops have no other option that is feasible to them than war.
The troops did not personally row across the Atlantic and launch a war. The government did, and it is their generals who are telling them to kill people, and they are doing so because they have been de-humaized, brainwashed and endoctrined to think it is OK. Obviously, many soldiers fight because they think it is the right thing, and to these soldiers, your point stands. But to the others, it doesn't.


as you never mentioned the 'nice people' that make up the Iraqi civilian population.

I thought it was taken in hand that my views on the US soldiers means I don't support the killing of the Iraqi people. I thought it was implied in my argument, but clearly you arn't smart enough to draw that conclusion. Instead you would need me to write out my position in regards to every detail so you can understand, as you so lovely have done at the end of your statement.



Anyone who shows any remorse or compassion for those US troops who DO NOT use their position in the military to break ranks with the imperialist system and destroy their capitalist oppressors are class traitors themselves.

Well this is a very fundamentalist position to take. If this was the word of the revolution, you would effectively eliminate much of your support. Why can't I show compassion for people killed? They are humans who many times were just looking for a way out of poverty. You show through your statements that you don't care to ask the question 'why' ever. And in doing this you will find yourself without very much information about any situation.


You are with the oppressed masses or the capitalist oppressors and your posts have not really showed that you side with the oppressed workers.

See second response.


All communist should urge the US army to turn their guns on the American officers and the US government.

How? This is an impossible statement. It only serves as an effort to put you and "all communist[s]" on one side, and me on another. Yet the statement is impossible.


Everyone who is at the top of the capitalist system and therefore is our class enemy has to be killed.

Define "at the top of the capitalist system". Do you mean the rich people? Do you mean the government? Who do you mean? Be specific, oh and surely the soldiers arn't on top of the capitalist system. One might say they are on the bottom as they have to die for the system while others reap the benefits.



They would never compromise or negotiate with the oppressed proletariat, why should we negotiate and compromise with them!

Firstly, I understand that you're all hyped up, but you asked a question, you need a question mark, not an exclamation point. Secondly, when did I ever say anything about negotiating or compromising with the government? I didn't.

We all share the same views here on who is the enemy, so why are you preaching to the choir? Why not say something intelligent, on how to go about these things, or what is needed for a revolution, rather than just ranting about killing people? It's very childish.

-- August

[monkeydust]

I wouldn't call them "friends". Cook was a thorn in the side of Blair since Iraq. After resigning from a top cabinet post he continually wrote articles opposing Blair's foreign and even domestic policy.

Blair's probably laughing about it all on his holiday.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yes but london communists, these were augusts opinions on hte issue, saying this is fucking boring does not add to teh debate and is parctically spam.

[London Communist]

Yes but london communists, these were augusts opinions on hte issue, saying this is fucking boring does not add to teh debate and is parctically spam.

I NEVER said that August's opinions were "fucking boring".

You putting words into my mouth.

I am NOT flaming, I urge you to provide some evidence to this claim of yours.

I never made ANY insulting remarks to him as a person.

I only made the point that I DISAGREE with some of August's opinions and that when he told someone else to not post their views on this thread, because he did not agree with them, I could of then been within my rights as well to tell him not to post his views on the grounds that I don't like what August was saying.

However, I WANT August to post his views and I am OPPOSED to ANYONE telling him not to post what he wants as I uphold his right to post his own opinions.

I just don't want to see people being selective on the fact that some people will post their views yet try and deny the same right to others.

I look forward to holding a ideological debate with August over the many issues which we both disagree on, and all of these differences we have stem from the opposing views on the need for revolutionary violence over pacifism and reformism.

[Vanguard1917]

Why do we give a shit about Robin Cook anyway? Yes he resigned over the war in Iraq, but wasn't he also the key supporter of the "humanitarian intervention" (i.e. imperialist invasion) in Bosnia a few years before? Robin Cook was a New Labour imperialist through and through; a cynic might even say that he only rebelled due his demotion from foreign secretary (like Frank Dobson and Chris Smith, who also decided to rebel once being demoted). It makes me laugh when those on the left in Britain start joining the bandwagon.

I wont lose any sleep. In fact, good ridance.

[London Communist]

Why do we give a shit about Robin Cook anyway? Yes he resigned over the war in Iraq, but wasn't he also the key supporter of the "humanitarian intervention" (i.e. imperialist invasion) in Bosnia a few years before? Robin Cook was a New Labour imperialist through and through; a cynic might even say that he only rebelled due his demotion from foreign secretary (like Frank Dobson and Chris Smith, who also decided to rebel once being demoted). It makes me laugh when those on the left in Britain start joining the bandwagon.

You are correct on that.

Robin Cook DID SUPPORT the imperialist war in Bosnia, the bombing of Serbia in the 1999 'Kosovo War', the imperialist assault in Sierra Leone to install a pro-British regime there and he SUPPORTED the US/UK bombing and invasion of Afghanistan.

Robin Cook also did NOT support the total and immediate withdrawl of US/UK troops from Iraq. He just said that they should leave at some point in the near future, the same point was made by President Bush and Premier Blair!

Robin Cook was one of those liberal type critics who do not oppose imperialism in principle, but only supports imperialism if it's rubber stamped with UN 'resolutions' and the 'consent' of the 'international community'. In other words had the UN general assembly supported the Iraq invasion and had the rest of the imperialist nations (China, Germany, Russia, France etc...) supported the invasion as well, Robin Cook and his ilk would have gone along with it as well.

The anti war movement should NEVER make any type of alliances or 'uinted fronts' with liberal middle class reformists.

The anti war movment should be based on firm anti imperialist politics and be led by the working class, as the workers are the ones that pay for imperialism with their lives and money.

I for one am happy that Robin Cook is dead, one less capitalist oppressor to deal with.

[bunk]

Robin cook was labour, true labout not any of this Blair rubbish. Even if you believe Robin cook was a capitalist oppressor then he was still useful as he was one of the biggest hinderences to Blair's agenda.

Also note that most of the anti war campaign in Britain and the U.S are middle-class and upper-class reformists anyway.

[London Communist]

Robin cook was labour, true labout not any of this Blair rubbish.

Labour, New Labour, Old Labour, True Labour: IT'S ALL ONE AND THE SAME REALLY.

Old Labour was just as imperialistic as New Labour is today.

Old Labour worked with the reactionary sell out trade union 'leaders' in the same way that New Labour works with reactionary sell out trade union 'leaders' to co-opt and control the working class to the interests of the capitalist system.

Old Labour was just as opposed to independent working class struggle and the wroking class acting for their OWN interests as New Labour is today.

Old Labour was opposed to the creation of a socialist society under a workers government as New Labour is opposed to today.

There is NOT ONE faction within the Labour Party that either seeks to abolish the capitalist system or to empower the working class.

Therefore the petty bickering of the different factions, right wing 'Blairites' against the reformists is of NO concern to us or the wider communist or working class movement.

Old Labour has had it's day, it let the working class down and did NOTHING with the capitalist assault on the workers during the Thatcher regime and during the 1984 Great Miners Strike.

Why should we waste our time with these reformists, who in most cases are not even very good at being reformists, for the Labour Party will now NEVER go back to a social democratic position.

Let us work to build a working class movement with a firm socialist and anti imperialist basis that will be independent of ANY capitalist institution and reformist grouping, including the Labour Party.


Even if you believe Robin cook was a capitalist oppressor then he was still useful as he was one of the biggest hinderences to Blair's agenda.

How was Robin Cook the 'BIGGEST hinderence' to the imperialist war???

Did Mr. Cook stop the war?

Did Mr. Cook get Blair impeached from office?

Did Mr. Cook help build any mass based opposition to the war?

The answer to all three of these questions is NO.

Therefore I ask again, how does this make him one of the biggest 'hinderences' to the imperialist war?

In France, Jean Marie LePen, leader of the fascist Nation Front was oppsed to the Iraq war, should be support him too?

Haider was oppsed to the war in Austria, again do we support gim?

The BNP in Britain oppsed the war, again do we support them?

Of course my answer is NO.

Vanguard1917 has a VERY GOOD POINT when he says that Robin Cook shares with Frank Dobson and other ex-ministers, a possible resentment that he lost his well paid job at the foriegn office.

As we all know what capitalist politicians are like, career driven, money driven egocentrics, I would bet that Robin Cook's opposition was a cheap shot at revenge in his petty bickerings with Blair.

Again, us communist should not waste our time inflating the already bloated ego's of these spinless politicians.

[/QUOTE]Also note that most of the anti war campaign in Britain and the U.S are middle-class and upper-class reformists anyway.[QUOTE]

Your spot on there!

The peace campaign is the Us was nothing but a disgusting front for the election campaign of the reactionary equally imperialist John Kerry.

As communists we should stop talking about removing Bush or Blair from office, because another capitalist politician will fill their positions to carry out further imperialist attacks.

We should organise the anti war movement to remove the system itslef, thus removing ANY possiblity for future imperilaist wars.

ONLY the working class can do this task and we should start to organise to build a revolutionary working class anti imperialist movement that opposes wars based on clear cut class lines.

[Decolonize The Left]

London, you don't read what I write do you? You already said that I was telling someone to stop posting their views, when that is a complete lie. Where do you see an intelligent opinion in this:

What type of fucking topic is this? Who gives a shit if he won't attend a funeral.
That's not helping any discussion, which is why I politely told him that if he didn't like the topic he didn't need to read it. That's a valid thing to say. I did not:

that when he told someone else to not post their views on this thread, because he did not agree with them,
as you have stated repeatedly. Please get your facts correct. I never tell people to stop posting their opinions, but when people post random negative posts insulting the person who started the thread, I find this unecessary.

I just don't want to see people being selective on the fact that some people will post their views yet try and deny the same right to others.
The same goes for this statement, you need to re-read what I originally posted and what it was in response to before you get up on your high horse and start tooting your horn. I'll re-post my orginial statement:

There are plenty of topics on this forum, if you don't like this one, don't read it. Don't complain and insult people who do care. Just stop reading after the first post, but please don't leave your ignorant comments everywhere you arn't happy.
This is probably the second time you read that. That is not what you claim it to be, and it's a direct quote. So now we can all see what happened, and that this guy was not being polite and respectful, and that he didn't need to post what he wrote, because it was insulting. And I politely told him so.

Now I'm pleased to read that you have moved on and are now articulating your point of view on this issue, it is a very interesting read. I just wanted to clarify what originally happened so that there was no confusion. Now we can move on to intellectual debate.

-- August

[London Communist]

August, I now see your point and I am sorry for misreading you, but I reaaly thought your post was an attempt to silence the said individuals views.

I have actually seen other posts by the person you told to leave and he has been flaming in other threads.

Moving on to the actual topic at hand, what are your views on my stand with regards to Robin Cook and my reply to Josh.

Do you agree with my criticism of the anti war movement, espc it's liberal/reformist wing?

I have another thread on this called the 'Revolutionary Anti Imperialist Alliance.'

It is in the politics section.

If you live in Britain, I would be more than happy to see what your views are on this.

[Decolonize The Left]

I've got to run so I'll make this quick.

I live in the US, so I'm not familiar with British politics. But I do agree that most of the anti-war movement are middle/upper-middle class people. This is because the educated people are the ones with something to lose as well as the ability to see through propaganda.

I do think that Blair should have gone, out of respect, that's all. But I don't think we should be sorry that this other guy died, he was part of the elite capitalist oppressors. I mean if he hidered Blair, that's good, but he obviously didn't do enough.

I've got to run now, I'll check up later.

-- August

[bolshevik butcher]

London communist, i didnt say that you were attaking angus, i said that by calling this thread fucking boring you didnt add to teh debate. Where as when angus voiced his views on the other issues oyu metnioned he did add to teh debate.