antieverything
18th November 2002, 22:54
Antieverything:
Uh, RH, Iepilei was actually dead on in saying that the major problem in the USSR was agriculture. Soviet agripolicy was terribly inefficient your reference to collective farms further points out your ignorance of the history of your own country! Collective farms were run by the government and simply paid farmers lower wages but also allowed them to sell some of their crops for personal profit.
After that you go on to say that the USSR was a federalist democracy. [how old are you again?] Only in theorywas the USSR democratic or federalist.
The last constitution of the USSR, enacted in 1977, declared the CPSU “the leading and directing force of Soviet society and the nucleus of its political system.” Only the party could “guide the great endeavor of the Soviet people and place their struggle for the triumph of communism on a planned, scientific basis.” The CP, of course, consisted of only 5% of the population.
I can hear you now, "What about the Supreme Soviet?"
What kind of shitty history do they teach in your schools? The Supreme Soviet was nothing more than a rubber stamp for the CP. All its members were elected without competition, on slates carefully assembled by the party organs. It met for only several days per year. All votes were unanimous.
The Supreme Soviet also appointed the senior officials in the executive agencies of the government. The cabinet of department heads was known as the Council of People’s Commissars from 1917 until 1946 and the Council of Ministers thereafter. The chairman of the council (unofficially dubbed the premier), the ministers, and the immense bureaucracies that served under them had much everyday power, but answered in the end to the party and served at its pleasure.
Real final authority rested with the Politburo which had only 15 members. Decisions were made in secret--the people had no knowledge of who voted how or why. These decisions were then handed down to the Supreme Soviet and--as I've said before--ratified unanimously.
Now for the claim of federalism.
The 15 union republics had government structures, nominally elected by the population, that largely ran in parallel to those of the central government. The economic concerns of the republics were of lower priority than those of the USSR government, and all republic activities were checked and, if need be, amended from above. Further restraint was applied by the organs of the CPSU: Each republic but the RSFSR had a republic-level Central Committee, Politburo, and Secretariat subordinated to the Kremlin (the seat of the CPSU and Soviet government) in Moscow. Because the union republics were accountable for educational and cultural services, residents often identified them as defenders of republic interests and identities. This perception became highly important when Gorbachev’s reforms led to the weakening of the authority of the central administration in the late 1980s.
Beneath the union republics was an elaborate web of regional and local authorities. Their main duties were to deliver social services (such as health care and public housing) and in the countryside to supervise agricultural production. Ten union republics (all except the three Baltic republics, Moldavia, and Armenia) had regional subunits. These included the autonomous areas for ethnic homelands (autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts, and autonomous okrugs) and two other types without ethnic coloration, oblasts and krais (territories). All told, the Soviet Union in 1989 encompassed, besides the 15 union republics, 38 autonomous areas and 120 oblasts and krais. At the most localized level, councils were in place for rural districts (3193 in 1989), towns and cities (2190), small urban settlements (4026), and villages (42,712). Again, all government bodies operated under the close watch of the apparatus of the CPSU.
Thank you all for your time.
[hr]
Revolutionary Hero:
quote: "Uh, RH, Iepilei was actually dead on in saying that the major problem in the USSR was agriculture."
If you agrees with him after reading my reply then you are damn fool.
USSR provided itself with the agricultural products of any kind, moreover it exported many agricultural goods to the other countries. To say the truth, it imported sugar from Cuba, but did this only for the supporting socialism over there, following the principle of proletarian internationalism. Soviet Union was one of the biggest sugar producer in the World, and really didn't need Cuban sugar. ( I can post a quote from Che's conversation with the one of the representatives of an african country, in which Che said that he was grateful to the USSR for supporting Cuba this way).
quote:"Collective farms were run by the government and simply paid farmers lower wages but also allowed them to sell some of their crops for personal profit. "
It is obvious that you don't know what you talk about, ignorant antieverything punk( BTW the signs of your ignorance are in your name).
There were two kinds of agricultural organizations in the Soviet Union:
1. KolHozes - Collective Farms
and
2. SovHozes- Soviet Farms.
The first were completely independent, when the second were accountable to the Soviet State. The latter type of the agricultural organization was considered as the advanced one, as it had all of the characteristics of the socialistic management.
quote:" After that you go on to say that the USSR was a federalist democracy. [how old are you again?] Only in theorywas the USSR democratic or federalist."
USSR was the federative and democratic state both De Facto and De Jure. Practice 100% conformed to the theory. If you read my reply till the end , then you will get the chance to notice how all of your arguements would be destroyed by the true knowledge.
quote:"The last constitution of the USSR, enacted in 1977, declared the CPSU “the leading and directing force of Soviet society and the nucleus of its political system.” Only the party could “guide the great endeavor of the Soviet people and place their struggle for the triumph of communism on a planned, scientific basis.” "
EXACTLY!
quote:"The CP, of course, consisted of only 5% of the population. "
There is no truth in this one, your statement consists of nothing, but a blatant lie. What bourgeois source did you use in order to get this poor number?
Actually, more than 50% of the Soviet people were the members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. All people studied the principles of the Marxism- Leninism at secondary schools , and those who entered the universities recieved the deep knowledge of the History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and studied Scientific Communism. The most able of the students entered the Communist Party ( and they formed majority), those who were not the members still suported Soviet policies.
quote:"I can hear you now, "What about the Supreme Soviet?" "
Are you schizophrenic? I am really sorry for you, man.
quote:" What kind of shitty history do they teach in your schools?"
LOL.
Schools? What the hell are these?
I studied everything myself, on my own. I learned the most objective materials and have the materialistic understanding of the History. Thanks to the Soviets!
quote:" The Supreme Soviet was nothing more than a rubber stamp for the CP. All its members were elected without competition, on slates carefully assembled by the party organs. It met for only several days per year. All votes were unanimous.
The Supreme Soviet also appointed the senior officials in the executive agencies of the government. The cabinet of department heads was known as the Council of People’s Commissars from 1917 until 1946 and the Council of Ministers thereafter. The chairman of the council (unofficially dubbed the premier), the ministers, and the immense bureaucracies that served under them had much everyday power, but answered in the end to the party and served at its pleasure.
Real final authority rested with the Politburo which had only 15 members. Decisions were made in secret--the people had no knowledge of who voted how or why. These decisions were then handed down to the Supreme Soviet and--as I've said before--ratified unanimously. "
Each member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union had the chances to get to the seat in the state organs, it all depended on his abilities and political skills.
Politburo's decisions were always very rational and objective; they were taken, considering the interests of the whole soviet nation.
quote:" The 15 union republics had government structures, nominally elected by the population, that largely ran in parallel to those of the central government."
Each of the Republics had it's own Constitution and legislature, own Soviet and own GenSec. In one word, each Soviet Republic had it's own government.
quote:" The economic concerns of the republics were of lower priority than those of the USSR government"
This statement is one of the most ignorant I have heard on these forums.
The economical development of each Soviet Republic was very important. The governments of the Republics always paid a great attention to the economical development of their Republic. It was important, because USSR wouldn't have been the most developed state in the world , if it have not had the developed Soviet Socialistic Republics. How do you expect the Union to be strong and the united state to be highly developed economically, if it has weak internal structure? The development of each Republic served the guarantee of the development of the whole Soviet Union.
quote:" republic activities were checked"
The center didn't need to check the activites of the Republics , as the true communists were at the top of the each. Don't try to present the colonial oppressed and poor republics. The situation was completly different to your hypothesis.
quote:"Each republic but the RSFSR had a republic-level Central Committee, Politburo, and Secretariat subordinated to the Kremlin (the seat of the CPSU and Soviet government) in Moscow. "
One more ignorant statement of yours. You really make me laugh!
Each Republic, but the RSFSR, had it's own Central Commitee and Secretariat. None of the Republics had it's own Politburo, not even RSFSR. Politburo ( Presidium) was the highest political organ of the whole UNION. The representatives of the different Republics were the members of Politburo at a different time.
So, your lack of knowledge resulted in the most SERIOUS MISTAKE of YOUR REPLY!
quote:" when Gorbachev’s reforms led to the weakening of the authority of the central administration in the late 1980s."
I will not be surprised if you do support this renegade, revisionistic bourgeois servant and the enemy of the Soviet State.
quote:" Beneath the union republics was an elaborate web of regional and local authorities. Their main duties were to deliver social services (such as health care and public housing) and in the countryside to supervise agricultural production. Ten union republics (all except the three Baltic republics, Moldavia, and Armenia) had regional subunits. These included the autonomous areas for ethnic homelands (autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts, and autonomous okrugs) and two other types without ethnic coloration, oblasts and krais (territories)"
This statement perfectly describes the complex federative structure of the Soviet State.
quote:"Again, all government bodies operated under the close watch of the apparatus of the CPSU. "
You sounded like this:"Again, listen to my new bullshit!"
Now, listen to the truth...All governmental organs consisted of the Party Members, just remember what the Constitution said , and you will come to the conclusion that the Constitution was trully the Supreme Law of the Soviet State. Communists ruled the Soviet State in the interests of the Soviet people. Party or Communists it is all the same.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION.
SORRY IF SOME PARTS OF MY REPLY WERE VERY OFFENSIVE, I WAS JUST VERY ANGRY AT ANTI-EVERYTHING( this "everything" probably includes socialism, communism, anarchism, anacrho-communism et.c.), AS HE PISSED ME OFF CALLING ME DOGAMTIC AND RIDICULOUS. HE GOT THE APPROPRIATE REPLY.
THANK YOU!
[hr]
Antieverything:
Ok...all that I can say is that I'm completely aghast at the total denial by Revolutionary Hero of every established truth and reality of the Soviet Union.
Denying everything doesn't make for a sufficient argument. Every "fact" you put forward to refute my well-researched and factual arguments was nothing but a lie...pure and simple. Again, how old are you?
[hr]
Revolutionary Hero:
Antieverything, you have just made the typical move of the loser. Hey, your king is checkmated! Do you deny this fact?
I didn't just denied your statements, but actually proved them to be incorrect. Read my reply more attentively and carefully and you will find that you have nothing to say against my strong arguements, I call them strong , as I spread the truth, unlike you.
You lied about the Soviets, and you just have lost one of the battles of the IDEOLOGICAL STRUGGLE, as the result of the numerous mistakes made by you. Sorry, man, wrong strategy!
Then be a man, and admit your defeat!
[hr][hr][hr]
And so we meet our heroes: locked in mortal combat over...well...er...some insignificant shit.
Fight!
Uh, RH, Iepilei was actually dead on in saying that the major problem in the USSR was agriculture. Soviet agripolicy was terribly inefficient your reference to collective farms further points out your ignorance of the history of your own country! Collective farms were run by the government and simply paid farmers lower wages but also allowed them to sell some of their crops for personal profit.
After that you go on to say that the USSR was a federalist democracy. [how old are you again?] Only in theorywas the USSR democratic or federalist.
The last constitution of the USSR, enacted in 1977, declared the CPSU “the leading and directing force of Soviet society and the nucleus of its political system.” Only the party could “guide the great endeavor of the Soviet people and place their struggle for the triumph of communism on a planned, scientific basis.” The CP, of course, consisted of only 5% of the population.
I can hear you now, "What about the Supreme Soviet?"
What kind of shitty history do they teach in your schools? The Supreme Soviet was nothing more than a rubber stamp for the CP. All its members were elected without competition, on slates carefully assembled by the party organs. It met for only several days per year. All votes were unanimous.
The Supreme Soviet also appointed the senior officials in the executive agencies of the government. The cabinet of department heads was known as the Council of People’s Commissars from 1917 until 1946 and the Council of Ministers thereafter. The chairman of the council (unofficially dubbed the premier), the ministers, and the immense bureaucracies that served under them had much everyday power, but answered in the end to the party and served at its pleasure.
Real final authority rested with the Politburo which had only 15 members. Decisions were made in secret--the people had no knowledge of who voted how or why. These decisions were then handed down to the Supreme Soviet and--as I've said before--ratified unanimously.
Now for the claim of federalism.
The 15 union republics had government structures, nominally elected by the population, that largely ran in parallel to those of the central government. The economic concerns of the republics were of lower priority than those of the USSR government, and all republic activities were checked and, if need be, amended from above. Further restraint was applied by the organs of the CPSU: Each republic but the RSFSR had a republic-level Central Committee, Politburo, and Secretariat subordinated to the Kremlin (the seat of the CPSU and Soviet government) in Moscow. Because the union republics were accountable for educational and cultural services, residents often identified them as defenders of republic interests and identities. This perception became highly important when Gorbachev’s reforms led to the weakening of the authority of the central administration in the late 1980s.
Beneath the union republics was an elaborate web of regional and local authorities. Their main duties were to deliver social services (such as health care and public housing) and in the countryside to supervise agricultural production. Ten union republics (all except the three Baltic republics, Moldavia, and Armenia) had regional subunits. These included the autonomous areas for ethnic homelands (autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts, and autonomous okrugs) and two other types without ethnic coloration, oblasts and krais (territories). All told, the Soviet Union in 1989 encompassed, besides the 15 union republics, 38 autonomous areas and 120 oblasts and krais. At the most localized level, councils were in place for rural districts (3193 in 1989), towns and cities (2190), small urban settlements (4026), and villages (42,712). Again, all government bodies operated under the close watch of the apparatus of the CPSU.
Thank you all for your time.
[hr]
Revolutionary Hero:
quote: "Uh, RH, Iepilei was actually dead on in saying that the major problem in the USSR was agriculture."
If you agrees with him after reading my reply then you are damn fool.
USSR provided itself with the agricultural products of any kind, moreover it exported many agricultural goods to the other countries. To say the truth, it imported sugar from Cuba, but did this only for the supporting socialism over there, following the principle of proletarian internationalism. Soviet Union was one of the biggest sugar producer in the World, and really didn't need Cuban sugar. ( I can post a quote from Che's conversation with the one of the representatives of an african country, in which Che said that he was grateful to the USSR for supporting Cuba this way).
quote:"Collective farms were run by the government and simply paid farmers lower wages but also allowed them to sell some of their crops for personal profit. "
It is obvious that you don't know what you talk about, ignorant antieverything punk( BTW the signs of your ignorance are in your name).
There were two kinds of agricultural organizations in the Soviet Union:
1. KolHozes - Collective Farms
and
2. SovHozes- Soviet Farms.
The first were completely independent, when the second were accountable to the Soviet State. The latter type of the agricultural organization was considered as the advanced one, as it had all of the characteristics of the socialistic management.
quote:" After that you go on to say that the USSR was a federalist democracy. [how old are you again?] Only in theorywas the USSR democratic or federalist."
USSR was the federative and democratic state both De Facto and De Jure. Practice 100% conformed to the theory. If you read my reply till the end , then you will get the chance to notice how all of your arguements would be destroyed by the true knowledge.
quote:"The last constitution of the USSR, enacted in 1977, declared the CPSU “the leading and directing force of Soviet society and the nucleus of its political system.” Only the party could “guide the great endeavor of the Soviet people and place their struggle for the triumph of communism on a planned, scientific basis.” "
EXACTLY!
quote:"The CP, of course, consisted of only 5% of the population. "
There is no truth in this one, your statement consists of nothing, but a blatant lie. What bourgeois source did you use in order to get this poor number?
Actually, more than 50% of the Soviet people were the members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. All people studied the principles of the Marxism- Leninism at secondary schools , and those who entered the universities recieved the deep knowledge of the History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and studied Scientific Communism. The most able of the students entered the Communist Party ( and they formed majority), those who were not the members still suported Soviet policies.
quote:"I can hear you now, "What about the Supreme Soviet?" "
Are you schizophrenic? I am really sorry for you, man.
quote:" What kind of shitty history do they teach in your schools?"
LOL.
Schools? What the hell are these?
I studied everything myself, on my own. I learned the most objective materials and have the materialistic understanding of the History. Thanks to the Soviets!
quote:" The Supreme Soviet was nothing more than a rubber stamp for the CP. All its members were elected without competition, on slates carefully assembled by the party organs. It met for only several days per year. All votes were unanimous.
The Supreme Soviet also appointed the senior officials in the executive agencies of the government. The cabinet of department heads was known as the Council of People’s Commissars from 1917 until 1946 and the Council of Ministers thereafter. The chairman of the council (unofficially dubbed the premier), the ministers, and the immense bureaucracies that served under them had much everyday power, but answered in the end to the party and served at its pleasure.
Real final authority rested with the Politburo which had only 15 members. Decisions were made in secret--the people had no knowledge of who voted how or why. These decisions were then handed down to the Supreme Soviet and--as I've said before--ratified unanimously. "
Each member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union had the chances to get to the seat in the state organs, it all depended on his abilities and political skills.
Politburo's decisions were always very rational and objective; they were taken, considering the interests of the whole soviet nation.
quote:" The 15 union republics had government structures, nominally elected by the population, that largely ran in parallel to those of the central government."
Each of the Republics had it's own Constitution and legislature, own Soviet and own GenSec. In one word, each Soviet Republic had it's own government.
quote:" The economic concerns of the republics were of lower priority than those of the USSR government"
This statement is one of the most ignorant I have heard on these forums.
The economical development of each Soviet Republic was very important. The governments of the Republics always paid a great attention to the economical development of their Republic. It was important, because USSR wouldn't have been the most developed state in the world , if it have not had the developed Soviet Socialistic Republics. How do you expect the Union to be strong and the united state to be highly developed economically, if it has weak internal structure? The development of each Republic served the guarantee of the development of the whole Soviet Union.
quote:" republic activities were checked"
The center didn't need to check the activites of the Republics , as the true communists were at the top of the each. Don't try to present the colonial oppressed and poor republics. The situation was completly different to your hypothesis.
quote:"Each republic but the RSFSR had a republic-level Central Committee, Politburo, and Secretariat subordinated to the Kremlin (the seat of the CPSU and Soviet government) in Moscow. "
One more ignorant statement of yours. You really make me laugh!
Each Republic, but the RSFSR, had it's own Central Commitee and Secretariat. None of the Republics had it's own Politburo, not even RSFSR. Politburo ( Presidium) was the highest political organ of the whole UNION. The representatives of the different Republics were the members of Politburo at a different time.
So, your lack of knowledge resulted in the most SERIOUS MISTAKE of YOUR REPLY!
quote:" when Gorbachev’s reforms led to the weakening of the authority of the central administration in the late 1980s."
I will not be surprised if you do support this renegade, revisionistic bourgeois servant and the enemy of the Soviet State.
quote:" Beneath the union republics was an elaborate web of regional and local authorities. Their main duties were to deliver social services (such as health care and public housing) and in the countryside to supervise agricultural production. Ten union republics (all except the three Baltic republics, Moldavia, and Armenia) had regional subunits. These included the autonomous areas for ethnic homelands (autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts, and autonomous okrugs) and two other types without ethnic coloration, oblasts and krais (territories)"
This statement perfectly describes the complex federative structure of the Soviet State.
quote:"Again, all government bodies operated under the close watch of the apparatus of the CPSU. "
You sounded like this:"Again, listen to my new bullshit!"
Now, listen to the truth...All governmental organs consisted of the Party Members, just remember what the Constitution said , and you will come to the conclusion that the Constitution was trully the Supreme Law of the Soviet State. Communists ruled the Soviet State in the interests of the Soviet people. Party or Communists it is all the same.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION.
SORRY IF SOME PARTS OF MY REPLY WERE VERY OFFENSIVE, I WAS JUST VERY ANGRY AT ANTI-EVERYTHING( this "everything" probably includes socialism, communism, anarchism, anacrho-communism et.c.), AS HE PISSED ME OFF CALLING ME DOGAMTIC AND RIDICULOUS. HE GOT THE APPROPRIATE REPLY.
THANK YOU!
[hr]
Antieverything:
Ok...all that I can say is that I'm completely aghast at the total denial by Revolutionary Hero of every established truth and reality of the Soviet Union.
Denying everything doesn't make for a sufficient argument. Every "fact" you put forward to refute my well-researched and factual arguments was nothing but a lie...pure and simple. Again, how old are you?
[hr]
Revolutionary Hero:
Antieverything, you have just made the typical move of the loser. Hey, your king is checkmated! Do you deny this fact?
I didn't just denied your statements, but actually proved them to be incorrect. Read my reply more attentively and carefully and you will find that you have nothing to say against my strong arguements, I call them strong , as I spread the truth, unlike you.
You lied about the Soviets, and you just have lost one of the battles of the IDEOLOGICAL STRUGGLE, as the result of the numerous mistakes made by you. Sorry, man, wrong strategy!
Then be a man, and admit your defeat!
[hr][hr][hr]
And so we meet our heroes: locked in mortal combat over...well...er...some insignificant shit.
Fight!