Help.

[Ownthink]

Hey guys...

I am getting alot of shit elsewhere for my Political Views. And it's really starting to piss me off. Most people just say that "communism failed blah blah blah" and are so ignorant and don't know what they are even talking about it isn't even funny. BUT... on to what I created this thread for...

My main area of recieving flames and whatnot is because I support the Iraqi Resistance, and although to me the death of a US Soldier is very saddening for the family, I can't help but be happy for the Iraqi Resistance and their constant drive to get the US forces out of their country. Just recently I got alot of shit because I said that the death of a soldier is something that happens in war, and I do support the forces that combat American soldiers... Am I just being a total prick with no regard for these young men and their situation, or am I being a rational person who realizes people die in war, and that these US soldiers are not so innocent themselves? Please help on this one, my conscience is being a *****.

[viva le revolution]

No you are not being a total prick. people die in a war, that's an unavoidable consequence. People should understand that you can't just invade another country and be expected to be showered with flowers.
The U.S was wrong in this war, and by what i can ascertain the american public knows this also. But the majority of support is in faint-hearted slogans like 'support the troops blah blah blah' , what people do not understand is that when an unjustified war is fought, the troops are the enemy and resistance is a duty, and a commendable one at that. Next time ask how would they react if saddam took over their country based on lies.
No comrade this is a very rational point of view without the syrupy nationalism.

[violencia.Proletariat]

meh, i think your being a bit narrow minded. the iraqi resistance fighters arent you comrades, they are most likely religious extremists not the local neighbors who are defending their land. now they are fighting agaisnt us imperialism But they are nut bags who will die for a religion.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 09:12 PM
meh, i think your being a bit narrow minded. the iraqi resistance fighters arent you comrades, they are most likely religious extremists not the local neighbors who are defending their land. now they are fighting agaisnt us imperialism But they are nut bags who will die for a religion.
I hate Religious extremists, but if they are going to drive out some imperialistic army, then fucking sweet, all the better.

And 5-10% of the Insurgency are Religious Fanatics/Criminal Gangs. I would say most of them are just defending their now crumbled and raped country.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Ownthink
My main area of receiving flames and whatnot is because I support the Iraqi Resistance, and although to me the death of a US Soldier is very saddening for the family, I can't help but be happy for the Iraqi Resistance and their constant drive to get the US forces out of their country. Just recently I got a lot of shit because I said that the death of a soldier is something that happens in war, and I do support the forces that combat American soldiers...

Of course you are getting flamed and shit-stormed -- you are probably posting your views on a board full of American (or British) patriots.

Flame back!!!

Don't take any crap from apologists for U.S. imperialism! Tell them to eat shit and die!

And don't bow to their efforts to intimidate you by suggesting that you are an "insensitive prick" because you don't puddle up and weep over the deaths of American/British mercenaries. How much weeping do they do over the many thousands of Iraqi dead? Those squalid pissants who defend U.S. imperialism and its documented war crimes in Iraq are full of shit!

Every "westerner" in Iraq today knows full well that his/her presence there is unwanted. If s/he stays there anyway, for any reason, then s/he deserves whatever unpleasant fate befalls them.

The only American/British soldiers I support are the ones who desert...or mutiny.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ownthink]

"The only American/British soldiers I support are the ones who desert...or mutiny."

That's exactly what I said, and I was ridiculed and called "un-American" for even suggesting such a thing.


I'm going to go find my M733 Magazine and some ammo.

[violencia.Proletariat]

redstar, what if some of the ones there dont really have any other choices. i understand your point but some people may have had to join the army if they had no other opertunities.

[STI]

That's exactly what I said, and I was ridiculed and called "un-American" for even suggesting such a thing.


Good! Don't identify yourself by who bosses you around! Be un-American, un-Canadian, un-French. Be working class!

[Seeker]

Nate, under what circumstances would you support someone signing up?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by nate
I understand your point but some people may have had to join the army if they had no other opertunities.

Nonsense! Wal-Mart is always hiring...and so is McDonalds. Those are shitty jobs, to be sure. No one would do those jobs if they could find anything better.

BUT, those jobs are better than being a professional killer for U.S. imperialism. If you're greedy enough or stupid enough to do that, then you deserve your fate.

Period! :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Aug 7 2005, 07:56 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Aug 7 2005, 07:56 AM)
nate
I understand your point but some people may have had to join the army if they had no other opertunities.

Nonsense! Wal-Mart is always hiring...and so is McDonalds. Those are shitty jobs, to be sure. No one would do those jobs if they could find anything better.

BUT, those jobs are better than being a professional killer for U.S. imperialism. If you're greedy enough or stupid enough to do that, then you deserve your fate.

Period! :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
A-fucking-greed.

[Donnie]

Redstar, what if some of the ones there dont really have any other choices. i understand your point but some people may have had to join the army if they had no other opertunities
Choices, of course they have a choice they have not implemented conscription. Even if they did establish conscription it would be best to put up resistance than fight a war for dollars. Personally I would rather be placed in prison than fight for the bourgeois.

The bourgeois can fight its own battle’s, its bad enough having to be exploited and oppressed by them.

Anyway of course they have a choice. They could become unemployed and claim benefits or just squat. I don't know what the situation on squatting is in America or where you live but over here in the UK you don't get arrested for squatting, you’re just sent to a civil court.

[slim]

Ownthink,

I believe that i can help.

One major obstacle is trying to convince others that your way is the norm. It is the future of your nation.

Instead of accepting the US deaths in Iraq you should show some outrage that the conservative administration have allowed it to happen by invading the country. Let others know that you care about their troops. They are the future citizens of a leftist nation, currently pawns in a sick game for oil.

Reassure others and yourself that revolution is inevitable and the current troubles will not be there forever. Oppose the current admin, turn everyone against them by supporting the troops in surviving and making it home.

Good Luck

Do chara de geo.

Slim

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 02:50 PM

Redstar, what if some of the ones there dont really have any other choices. i understand your point but some people may have had to join the army if they had no other opertunities
Choices, of course they have a choice they have not implemented conscription. Even if they did establish conscription it would be best to put up resistance than fight a war for dollars. Personally I would rather be placed in prison than fight for the bourgeois.

The bourgeois can fight its own battle’s, its bad enough having to be exploited and oppressed by them.

Anyway of course they have a choice. They could become unemployed and claim benefits or just squat. I don't know what the situation on squatting is in America or where you live but over here in the UK you don't get arrested for squatting, you’re just sent to a civil court.
yes, i agree with you guys that they should choose other options but, im not sure any great percentage of the us army knows much about the squat scene or would they ever do that. and im sure some of them think what they are doing is right, and it sucks.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Most of Americas Armed Forces are full of Archie Bunker spuds,cannon fodder if you will. Some are poor people who think the millitary will open the door to them for other possibilities. Some are middle-class and their parents kick them out ,they need a decent paying job and they can't or won't go to college.

My reasoning is that they just don't know better or they are afraid to hear
opposing views . Some so badly want to believe in their country because,they were told "USA is good" as children,its like they are trying to maintain their only innocence and purity they have,and that would be their childhood.

But,let me make this clear I do not support Americas Armed Forces,they are prime force ,whether they know it or not behind American colonialism.

I don't particularly support the sections involved in the Iraqi Resistance,though I recognize their "rights" to resist. America needs to get the hell out of Iraq,we have no reason to be there and ultimately its up to the citizens of Iraq to figure out what they want.

[anomaly]

The Iraq war is a rich man's war being fought by poor men and women. The poor of America are quite tempted by the funding that the military offers. I simply cannot bring myself to blame them for their choice. I am dissapointed that they don't realize that they are aiding American imperialism, but I can empathize with them. I certainly hope that the Iraq resistance can fight and bring Iraqi democracy rather than American democracy to their homeland. We all know that if the Iraqi people get 'out of line', according to the reactionary American government, then the US will do to the elected government what they did to Allende in Chile.

As far as 'getting to' Americans, I feel that sometimes it is a lost cause. Patriotism has blinded half our country, and I've seen for myself that many conservative Americans will support the government's choices, even when these choies are usually to aid tyranny and bring down democracy. I've brought up the Allende case several times when Americans have claimed that the government 'always' supports democracy, and they are too stubborn in their views to denounce the obviously imperialist act. So-called liberals, however, are quite worth speaking to. They will usually agree that socialism is a beneficial move, but many of them are too stubbornly pacifist for my liking.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Am I just being a total prick with no regard for these young men and their situation, or am I being a rational person who realizes people die in war, and that these US soldiers are not so innocent themselves? Please help on this one, my conscience is being a *****.

There is nothing wrong with you. If you are in doubt, think of the fact that it was the US who started the war, not Iraq. The US soldiers volenteered. The Iraqis defend. The only ones who should have trouble with their conscience is the people who indirectly and directly started and/or supported the war. It is because of them US soldiers, journalists and Iraqis die, not because of those who resist US imperialism. When you have a lot of pressure around you, and many people oppose your views, it is easy to make yourself believe that you are the one who is wrong. Before, a lot of people believed the earth was the center of the universe, and those who resisted this indoctrination, where prosecuted. Times change, and those who resisted were right.

[Faceless]

Woah, Redstar and others need to think a couple of times over before we dance on the graves of dead soldiers.

Rationally we should perceive their deaths not as heroism but as deaths in imperialist wars. It is also evident that, whilst we support the rights of the Iraqi people to fight against imperialism, we should have no illusions as to the ideological and class nature of the leadership, infused with petty bourgeois and Islamic myth. As with all situations, an independent working class front must be formed to fight on the classic "march alone strike together" principle.

However, the false consciousness of the average working class American who would join the army is no worse or more deplorable or more fatal than any other misguided worker. There would be no end of patriots to take up the arms of a fallen soldier in Iraq. The average worker does not bear upon his shoulders the "make or break" decision over the army when they decide to join the army or otherwise. It is simply a job, and the worker is as much "alienated" from the product of their "labour" here as if they had been manufacturing clothes for the wealthy. The nature of the job seems somewhat morally tainted but what of the workers who work in arms manufacture, arguably an engine for the world economy and the military machine that would arm young men. The fact that our friend finds patriots to "flame" him is testament to the wide-spread nature of this attitude. However, a worker could be racist, reformist, sexist, or patriotic, but each form of false consciosness CAN be overcome in periods of upheaval and crisis.

To dismiss these workers as scum not to be looked at is to skim the dark edges of ultra-leftism which a great many here are guilty of.

[Ownthink]

I'm kinda confused by all this. Yes, the working class is us/our ally, but still, a war cannot be fought without soldiers. They are the ones who pull the trigger and drop the bombs. Civilians wouldn't die if it wasn't for the soldiers, so the soldiers are not innocent at all. Give someone a gun and tell them to kill, they are equally guilty because they are the ones who pulled the trigger.

I still support the resistance and when I hear that some US soldiers have been killed I will be glad because it is a victory for the resistance just defending their country. If you are in the Military, then shame on you because
A) you were stupid enough to join
B) you serve imperialists

Some say you support the resistance but are saddened every time you hear a US soldier was killed. You can't do both. It's either support the forces that defend their lands and kill US soldiers in the process, or support the Imperialistic soldiers.

Just because the majority of soldiers in the German Heer and Wehrmacht were not Nazis does not make them innocent.

US our of Iraq now
Victory to the Resistance, it's their fucking country.

[STI]

Nice to see you taking up a strong position! Good work!

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 11:17 PM
Nice to see you taking up a strong position! Good work!
Was this directed at me?

[Faceless]

If you are in the Military, then shame on you because
A) you were stupid enough to join
B) you serve imperialists

Some say you support the resistance but are saddened every time you hear a US soldier was killed. You can't do both.

Much of the proletariat is similarly "stupid" but I do hope you wont wish death on all of them, after all, where would our revolution come from?

Why can I not be saddened by a US death? I am not american and it is not a sign of flag-waving lunatic patriotism.

After all, this war is little more than a tragedy, even if the resistance wins in the best possible of circumstances, the net result is a loss on every side. This is not equivalent with sympathy for imperialism or pacifism. Indeed, it CAN, and in any rational sense, MUST be coupled with sympathy for the resistance. All I hope is that you rethink your attitude towards other people's subjective responses. What if one of the dead was a family member? Would you still be so hardened in your opinion?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 09:02 AM

If you are in the Military, then shame on you because
A) you were stupid enough to join
B) you serve imperialists

Some say you support the resistance but are saddened every time you hear a US soldier was killed. You can't do both.

Much of the proletariat is similarly "stupid" but I do hope you wont wish death on all of them, after all, where would our revolution come from?

Why can I not be saddened by a US death? I am not american and it is not a sign of flag-waving lunatic patriotism.

After all, this war is little more than a tragedy, even if the resistance wins in the best possible of circumstances, the net result is a loss on every side. This is not equivalent with sympathy for imperialism or pacifism. Indeed, it CAN, and in any rational sense, MUST be coupled with sympathy for the resistance. All I hope is that you rethink your attitude towards other people's subjective responses. What if one of the dead was a family member? Would you still be so hardened in your opinion?
I have indeed thought about if one of them was a family member. I would be saddened. Saddened that they had to serve in an Imperialistic Military Machine. Saddened that they died. BUT...

It's 1944. You are a german. Your brother is off fighting on the front. He is also following the orders of Himmler and Hitler. He dies, tragedy? I would hardly think so. For the family, yes. For the world and those oppressed by the Nazi Regime? I think not.


Let us look at all of those wo weep for the Iraqi dead. oh wait, there is none. You seem to forget WE (as in the US, where I live) started this war. WE bombed Iraq. WE killed civilians with bombs and bullets. Therefor, I am not sympathetic to the US military at all. Why should I be? I am sympathetic only to those who are just defending there country, who didn't want this war, who had no choice in the matter.

yes, it does suck when a good person who happened to be Military dies.. for the family. But not for the Iraqi family he bombed and/or shot.

Nobody in my family would ever serve in the Military. if they did and died, well, they chose that. They chose to serve, as did everyone else in this military. No one was drafted. As for being poor, look at Redstars posts a page back. I am in total agreement with him. There are other options besides Military. No one HAD to serve in the Military and kill innocent people, they just chose to.

Giving someone a gun and telling them to kill and they end up killing makes you and them EQUALLY guilty. Do we cry for the serial killer every time he kills? No. Do we cry for him because he has a mental disease? No. We cry for the people he killed.

The door swings both ways. I cry for the Iraqis, not the people that killed them.

Forgive my typing errors, I was in a hurry and I must leave now.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Faceless
Woah, Redstar and others need to think a couple of times over before we dance on the graves of dead soldiers.

Whenever I see in the media that the resistance has killed some more occupation troops or quislings, it raises my spirits and improves my mood.

Under the circumstances, what would you have us think about?


Rationally we should perceive their deaths not as heroism but as deaths in imperialist wars.

Only the reactionaries speak of the "heroism" of the occupation troops...no one here does.

With rare exceptions, the American soldiers in Iraq are goons -- murderous thugs worthy only of contempt.

If the Iraqis kill them all...that would be fine with me.


...we should have no illusions as to the ideological and class nature of the leadership, infused with petty bourgeois and Islamic myth.

The Iraqi resistance doesn't appear to even have "leaders" in the sense that you are using the word.

But I quite agree that the Iraqi resistance is not composed of "wonderful people" who are "a shining example" of humanity "at its best". Anybody who starts using rhetoric like that is an idiot.

From an ideological standpoint, the Iraqi resistance (or at least that portion of it reported by the bourgeois media) suffers from enormous backwardness.

They are doing one and only one progressive thing...inflicting damage on U.S. imperialism.

That's "good enough" for me.


As with all situations, an independent working class front must be formed to fight on the classic "march alone strike together" principle.

That would be nice...but I wouldn't hold my breath.


However, the false consciousness of the average working class American who would join the army is no worse or more deplorable or more fatal than any other misguided worker.

No, I disagree. Most working class kids understand, in at least a rudimentary way, that getting your ass shot off for "the rich bastards" is not a "smart career move".

I suspect (though I admit that I do not know for certain) that the bulk of military volunteers these days comes from families with a military/police background...a kind of "sub-culture" that celebrates pretty much everything that disgusts us. Kids in that sub-culture are raised (often brutally so) to "obey orders" and to see "discipline" as the highest "virtue" of "civilization". As often as not, sexism, racism, and raging homophobia are part of that package...as well as the most authoritarian and reactionary variants of Christianity.

They really are worse than the "average American".


There would be no end of patriots to take up the arms of a fallen soldier in Iraq.

No, they seem to be running out of "patriots" now -- the recruiters can't fill their quotas.


It is simply a job, and the worker is as much "alienated" from the product of their "labour" here as if they had been manufacturing clothes for the wealthy.

And again I disagree. There is no "ordinary job" where you cede to the boss the power of life and death over you. All bosses are scum, no question about it, but if you feel they are threatening your life, you walk away.


...but what of the workers who work in arms manufacture, arguably an engine for the world economy and the military machine that would arm young men?

Not a real good choice either -- arms factories have a marked tendency to blow up.

But clearly not in the same league with using those weapons.


The fact that our friend finds patriots to "flame" him is testament to the wide-spread nature of this attitude.

He's arguing with reactionaries...they could not express any other views than reactionary views.

Of course they "flame" him..."his kind" are not even supposed to exist in "their kind of country". They'd physically beat him to death if they could. They are "virtual" stormtroopers...and would probably be real ones if they had the opportunity.

The United States is a very reactionary country at the present time.


To dismiss these workers as scum not to be looked at is to skim the dark edges of ultra-leftism which a great many here are guilty of.

Beginning with me! :lol:

I not only "skim the dark edges of ultra-leftism", I plunge into that "darkness" with enthusiasm.

May the "dark side of the Force" be with us!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Ownthink]

He's arguing with reactionaries...they could not express any other views than reactionary views.

Of course they "flame" him..."his kind" are not even supposed to exist in "their kind of country". They'd physically beat him to death if they could. They are "virtual" stormtroopers...and would probably be real ones if they had the opportunity.

The United States is a very reactionary country at the present time.

TRUE THAT! It has been ingrained in these people to "respect the troops" since they were little children. "Respect our troops, because they fight for our freedom! Freedom isn't free, just ask any soldier!". YEAH RIGHT. How does some asshole putting 10 rounds into a indigenous person in black pajamas who is just defending his/her country from some invading army in some foreign land(in an illegal oil and profit war, not to mention. *ahem* Halliburton *ahem*) do ANYTHING FOR MY "freedom"!?!? There immediate reaction was to hate me. They all rallied around me and called me names and insulted me because I do not weep for our Soldiers.

One of the mods, who is in the military, her son is in the military(active) and her husband is in the military, got extremely pissed off when I posted two close ups of dead imperialist soldiers. She REALLY went off. You can tell, they could give a shit less if the title was "129428590 Iraqi Soldiers die". I suspect it would be met with "well, this war sucks" but no sympathy at all. I am just giving this attitude back to them except with US soldiers, and they can't fucking take it. If the military moron I spoke of earlier posted pics of deaf Iraqi resistance, it would be met with "dead enemy. meh." whereas a picture of a dead US soldier is met with gasps and cries of "traitor! he's defending your freedom!" and all this other bullshit. The door swings both ways, assholes.

/end_rant


here's a good readon on why not to support our troops:
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/rat...attlehead1.html (http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/rattlehead/rattlehead1.html)

[Faceless]

Whenever I see in the media that the resistance has killed some more occupation troops or quislings, it raises my spirits and improves my mood.

Under the circumstances, what would you have us think about?

Possibly I misunderstood you in part, my point is to seperate subjective response from objective critique, the latter being the duty of the marxist. Yes, it may raise your spirits, I perceive it as tragedy, yet an objectively necessary one in the circumstance. Anyway, ill continue with the rest of your post...


Only the reactionaries speak of the "heroism" of the occupation troops...no one here does.

With rare exceptions, the American soldiers in Iraq are goons -- murderous thugs worthy only of contempt.

If the Iraqis kill them all...that would be fine with me.

If the Iraqis kill them all it would be fine with me, but not because I perceive the troops as goons any more than I perceive the flag-waving men and women who would cheer on this mass-murder, a large portion of the american working class included, as goons deserving of death. Let us face it, there is little qualitative difference between the two. I continue...


The Iraqi resistance doesn't appear to even have "leaders" in the sense that you are using the word.

But I quite agree that the Iraqi resistance is not composed of "wonderful people" who are "a shining example" of humanity "at its best". Anybody who starts using rhetoric like that is an idiot.

From an ideological standpoint, the Iraqi resistance (or at least that portion of it reported by the bourgeois media) suffers from enormous backwardness.

They are doing one and only one progressive thing...inflicting damage on U.S. imperialism.

That's "good enough" for me.

Well, I use the term "leaders" somewhat loosely, in the sense that chomsky is part of the flabby ideological leadership of so-called "anti-globablisation". So too is Al-Zakawi (sp?) part of the ideological leadership, along with the various religious leaders who form the ideological core of this resistance. This is largely what I mean by leadership, not in the sense of a professional army having a "leadership". I would tend to agree that damage to American Imperialism is progressive, and to this extent certain goals of the resistance are progressive. This does not make the isolated death of an american a joyous occasion, any less a tragedy, only a necessary tragedy. Disrespect for an individual who would mourn the death of a fallen soldier fails to understand this.


That would be nice...but I wouldn't hold my breath.
hehe, incidentally, neither would I atm, but it is a marxist principle which must be adhered to.


And again I disagree. There is no "ordinary job" where you cede to the boss the power of life and death over you. All bosses are scum, no question about it, but if you feel they are threatening your life, you walk away.

Again, in a subjective sense this is true, but in an objective sense every day people are forced to do dangerous forms of labour, and at the end of it comes a wage. I know several youths myself who have joined the military because they have nothing else they are good at, they were wayward at school and they know the pay isnt bad WITHOUT AN IOTA OF CONCERN AS TO THE NATURE OF THEIR "LABOUR". They are not flag waving patriots, they are disrespectful stoners, and quite poor as the school's demography goes. As it happens I am from the UK, I don't know how it is for the US, but I expect it is similar. I would agree with you though that many of these people are from a "labour aristocracy" who's pay, pension etc. are relatively protected as is true for the likes of the police, however, like all products dependent upon the economic viability of capitalism, they are subject to change. That the consciousness of these workers is subject to change is beyond question. Although some other "purer" workers, if you will, have a greater understanding of the class nature of politics and war, their consciousness need not be at the point of revolutionary either, and I know many racist, homophobic, sexist working class people, albeit less than I would find amongst middle class folk amongst whom these ideas are rampant. But this can be expected to change in a revolutionary situation, and the army may provide allies in the future. hehe, I wont go so far as to count my chickens before they've hatched mind.


But clearly not in the same league with using those weapons.

Through ideology and even the mechanized nature of warfare today, these workers as the factory workers, are alienated. As much as they present themselves as the right hand of capitalism, it is all capital which truly acts as the weapon of the capitalist class! That goes for the labour power of the soldier, the factory worker, and the journalist!


Beginning with me!

I not only "skim the dark edges of ultra-leftism", I plunge into that "darkness" with enthusiasm.

May the "dark side of the Force" be with us!

Such a shame that you would embrace that. I presume "reformist" workers too are unworthy allies? We can dismiss out of hand any members of the Labour Party or the Unions too for that matter. I'm guessing you would never even look at a misogynistic worker. But let me tell you, misogyny was rampant amongst the striking miners.


I would like to reitterate that my attitude is not one of "sympathy" for anyone. As it happens I can be quite cold when it comes to images or news of dead americans or starving children. But my "attitude" is irrelevant to my marxism.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Faceless
I presume "reformist" workers too are unworthy allies? We can dismiss out of hand any members of the Labour Party or the Unions too for that matter. I'm guessing you would never even look at a misogynistic worker. But let me tell you, misogyny was rampant amongst the striking miners.

I think this paragraph is at the "heart" of your critique of "ultra-leftism"...so allow me to explain a bit.

As Marxists, we presumably grasp the "historic role" of the working class over an extended period of time...to overthrow the "final" class society and bring us into an era in which economic classes no longer exist -- "the end of pre-history" and "the beginning of human history" as Marx phrased it.

What does that say about living, breathing workers at this moment in history?

Not much, right? Some of them might be doing something progressive and some of them might be doing something reactionary. Some might have good ideas on some things and really rotten ideas on other things.

Workers don't live in some "Platonic" realm as idealized entities...but in the real world with all its present day complications.

So, what should a Marxist approach be? In my "ultra-left" opinion, we should support what is progressive and attack what is reactionary.

Take your example of the miners' strike in the U.K. Of course, every revolutionary would have supported those strikes...no question about it. But how about a "flying squad" of Marxists-feminists that would try to reach every wife, sister, daughter of a striking miner...with a really sharp critique of misogyny -- how it is a tool of the bosses!

But wouldn't that "divide the workers"? Yes, that's one possible outcome. Another is that, after a period of intense "kitchen table" struggle, it would actually generate unity on a higher level...which is what communists are supposed to do.

Any dolt can "tail" a mass struggle...he just needs to be able to read and memorize "the line".

An "ultra-leftist" (a.k.a. real communist) looks to find a way to sharpen the line...to deepen the divisions between the working class and the ruling class.

If there were real communists in Iraq, what should they do?

They should support and participate in the resistance...that's obvious.

But they should also attack all forms of Islamic reaction...and that's not "obvious". Iraqi traditionalists would say "that's divisive"...but divisiveness is required if the resistance is to really defeat not only U.S. and British imperialism but the parade of "pious" quislings that will be and have already been imposed on Iraq.

In broad terms, I think this is something that's true in every mass struggle -- it has one or several progressive aspects (that lead towards that "historic role") and one or several reactionary aspects that undermine and may even entirely negate the progressive aspects.

It's also not a matter of "writing people off" -- we both know that people can and do shift from one side to another and even within a given side, can shift from one part to another.

The American or British soldier who deserts, sabotages, mutinies, etc. has switched sides -- his role in that historic struggle has changed.

In my view, he goes from "reactionary thug" to "progressive hero"...no matter what his personal motivations might be.

In fact, this change may leave the core of his reactionary values entirely untouched -- in which case he'll end up on the wrong side again in all probability.

But for that decision at that moment, he's done something right that is worthy of our support.

But consider this: later on, he turns up as a speaker at an anti-war demonstration...and frames his opposition in the form of an implied homophobic attack on his leaders -- I quit the war because Tony Blair is a pussy.

That's our cue! At the risk of being "divisive", the ultra-leftists must hammer this knucklehead...until he understands that homophobia is another tool of the bosses! Or until he quits the anti-war movement.

The idea of "unity" has long been a "sacred cow" among lefties -- we've had many threads on this board bemoaning the amount of "infighting" and echoing Rodney King -- "why can't we just get along".

It occurs to me that these are pleas for "stasis"...for this or that struggle or this or that movement to "stop at this point" -- it's "good enough". All we need is to "get more people" and "we'll do fine".

No. A struggle that doesn't develop, in some perceptible way, towards that "historic role" is just "marking time" at best...and, most likely, is drifting backwards.

Most of the 20th century "communists" and social reformists made much of "unity"...and we see how that turned out. :(

Thus my confirmed "ultra-leftism"...don't just support what is progressive, raise the ante!

And maybe we'll do better. :)

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[violencia.Proletariat]

is there any kind of poll, i know lots of people are agaisnt these, asking american soldiers why the joined? that would be interesting. ive met one soldier personally and he was fresh outta college and didnt really have any political view point, and wasnt a violent person or anything like that. if i ever talk to him again im gonna ask him why he joined because he was a pretty funny/nice guy.

[Faceless]

Take your example of the miners' strike in the U.K. Of course, every revolutionary would have supported those strikes...no question about it. But how about a "flying squad" of Marxists-feminists that would try to reach every wife, sister, daughter of a striking miner...with a really sharp critique of misogyny -- how it is a tool of the bosses!

Well, some observed that the miners wives played a noble role in the support of the miners strike, that revolutionary experience brought out the best in the women of miner's communities but also forced the men into a reassessment of the role of the equal role of women. I will not deny also the possibility of some such internal foment in the military, that these men and women are not the black and white "scum" that you denounce them as.

I am largely in agreement with you RedStar, I support the Iraqi resistance but always hold out for a united class oriented front for this resitance, however unlikely, by being critical of every reactionary aim and stance of the resistance but what is more by pointing out the class collaboration which exists within the resitance. This is not where I differ from you. Indeed, you highlight the crux of my opinion in one line of your own:


Not much, right? Some of them might be doing something progressive and some of them might be doing something reactionary. Some might have good ideas on some things and really rotten ideas on other things.

Workers don't live in some "Platonic" realm as idealized entities...but in the real world with all its present day complications.

Workers, of all shades, are a complex mixture of ideas depending upon their unique position within the class struggle. Some may for instance be somewhat patriotic by mistaking the national interest for the class interest but on the other hand they may be very progressive in their attitude towards homosexuality or in their understanding of religion.

But then:


In my view, he goes from "reactionary thug" to "progressive hero"...no matter what his personal motivations might be.

You make an intelligent observation of the complex nature of the Iraqi resistance which combines some of the most reactionary religious myth with a progressive movement for the expulsion of imperialism. And yet they are not "progressive heros" nor "reactionary thugs".

[STI]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Aug 11 2005, 04:41 AM--> (Ownthink @ Aug 11 2005, 04:41 AM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 11:17 PM
Nice to see you taking up a strong position! Good work!
Was this directed at me? [/b]
Yes.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by STI+Aug 12 2005, 08:48 AM--> (STI @ Aug 12 2005, 08:48 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:41 AM

[email protected] 10 2005, 11:17 PM
Nice to see you taking up a strong position! Good work!
Was this directed at me?
Yes. [/b]
Oh, well then, thanks I guess :)

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Faceless
You make an intelligent observation of the complex nature of the Iraqi resistance which combines some of the most reactionary religious myth with a progressive movement for the expulsion of imperialism. And yet they are not "progressive heroes" nor "reactionary thugs".

Quite so...though at this time, the progressive aspect of their struggle clearly outweighs the reactionary side.

But we were speaking of American and British soldiers, were we not? And in these cases, it's pretty clear that reaction is all there is. Only a small number of deserters has so far appeared (around 5,000 or so) and the numbers who've refused to obey orders is much smaller -- probably less than 50. (!)

There are groups in the U.S. -- and I assume in the U.K. as well -- which are attempting to "reach out" to the soldiers and convince them to desert, mutiny, etc. And I wish them every success in their efforts...even though, in fact, I don't expect them to accomplish very much.

As in many of my "pessimistic" evaluations, I would be delighted to be proven wrong by events...a generalized mutiny similar to that which took place among American ground troops in Vietnam in the waning years of that war would mean a serious defeat of U.S. and British imperialism.

But until that happens, I think "reactionary scum" is a reasonably accurate label for the social role and actual behavior of the occupation troops.

What seems to be "in the back of people's minds" when they object to such blunt language is that it will "alienate" the soldiers. That what we need is some form of language that will "win them over" to our side...or that will suggest that we "care about them more" than the bastards who sent them there.

Good luck with that one. I think if anyone tries to follow that path very far, they will end up like John Kerry -- calling for more troops, more arms, more equipment, etc. to be sent to the rebellious provinces of the Empire. That is what would have the greatest appeal to the mercenaries in the field at this time.

There is little to suggest, in my opinion, that the occupation troops are not "happy warriors"...which is to say reactionary scum.

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[redstar2000]

A small postscript...


Originally posted by Boston Herald
Decorated Marine opened fire on noisy crowd

LAWRENCE, Mass. - A Lawrence man who was named ``Marine of the Year'' last month is charged with firing a shotgun at a crowd of revelers outside his second-floor apartment, wounding two people.

Thirty-three-year-old Daniel Cotnoir allegedly fired a bullet at the crowd only minutes after he called police to complain about the noise they were making as they left a nearby nightclub and restaurant early Saturday.

The Lawrence Eagle-Tribune reports that a 15-year-old girl and a 20-year-old man were injured by bullet fragments from the shooting.

Cotnoir was arrested and held on $100,000 bail. He was to be arraigned tomorrow on attempted murder charges.

Last month, the Marine Corps Times presented Cotnoir with its annual Marine of the Year award. He beat out 180,000 other candidates for the honor.

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional...articleid=98031 (http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=98031)

They really are worse than the "average American".

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[violencia.Proletariat]

well ^^^ you have to admit, he's most likely acterd differently before he became a marine ;) , they really fuck with their heads.

[OleMarxco]

Well....now that this've friggin'a duh, topic's gone into the "subject" o're Imperialist's in IraQ....It all depend's on're rules in the Military, dolt's! Heck, even Redstar should've considered's 'rat. I mean, like, is it voluntarily - or COMPULSARY!? If the worker's are drafted - into 're army - AGAINST their free will, then what the fuck are we're *****in' at them for bein' "Goons" for then, huh!? Only the crazy few - mercenaries for MONEY - who involve'rem selves in a war, is guilthy of that! FUCK EVERYTHING ELSE! But if you voluntarily enter a war for Pro-US idealistic reason's as a PATRIOT, you're even MORE fucked up! It's not like the IraQi's are attackin' 'neone's, I only accept Patriotic's at -STRICTLY- defense.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

What the fuck? Learn to spell. I know you can.