"Shoot to kill"

[slim]

Since the 7/7 atrocities that rocked the nation the government almost instantly released plans for a terror law. This law allows armed police to "Shoot to Kill" at SUSPECTED terrorists.

The grounds of this new law are pretty obvious. A suspected bomber must be taken down before they are given the opportunity to blow themselves up in a public area.

However, the reality of this law which the British people have not thought to consider is the actual implications. In the short term, the law could be seen as beneficial but in the long term it will herald too much power for the government over its people.
No one has considered that police can now shoot their enemies eg. their wife's lover. I do not praise adultery but i think that giving the police this power can lead to murder; who can testify against it? If a man is wearing a coat that COULD conceal an explosive device, he cannot say that the reason he was shot at is because his wife is having an affair.
This is not a likely example but it is a possible situation among many other potential reasons for vengeance.

This law coincides with too many other control laws to be unsuspicious. In the spring there will be up to a dozen new control orders that will put our freedom at more risk to a more powerful government that is less and less representing its people. We can vote for who we want but when all the parties agree on something against the will of the people then our choice in the matter is very much suppressed. We can choose control orders or harsh control orders. I am afraid to say it but democracy in the UK is dying.

One other threat comes from a plan to put troops on the streets of Britain. In 1999 two armed police officers were killed by gunfire. The uproar from the police means that armed police may be replaced by the army. This coincides with the visible military marksmen in London.

We will see what happens in the future. Then we can let you decide on what to do. I think it is better to prepare now before it is impossible to challenge authority under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill.

Save democracy.

Do chara de geo.

Slim.

[Commandante_Ant]

i'm not sure if i agree with this...it is a great idea if the person shot IS a terrorist...if, as with the brazilian boy, this turns out not to be the case, it opens a can of worms for the british government which will be hard to fix. we cant be seen to be open to killing people because of their skin colour or language, its just not right.

[Colombia]

Crazy way for them to think they can stop a bombing. I would imagine that unless they killed the terrorist in 1 shot, the bomber would set it off anyway.

Plus you must remember that civilians may be mistakenly killed as was the case with the Brazilian.

[Mr Flibble]

its a tricky problem, should the police take down the suspect and maybe save lives or let the suspect if he or she is a bomber blow everyone up...i have to say i agree with the gov on this matter even tho its a scary step in the direction of dictator ship

[bolshevik butcher]

If a black man with a rucksack is now a potnetial bomber then youc annot shoot on site.

[Decolonize The Left]

I firmly agree with Slim on this issue. This has been taken too far, and more importantly, it is too loosely defined. "Suspected terrorist", well what the fuck does that mean? That is a loose definition of a word which defines someones actions, not appearence. Where, in the definition of terrorist, does it state what this person will look like? Nowhere, no matter where you look.
The fact is that we have come to associate terrorists with Middle Eastern looking gentlemen or other men of color and this will only lead to more deaths for those men. In concept, this could be considered racism as well as a subtle excuse to perform genocide, on a very small, individual, level.

-- August

PS: Slim, what does "Do chara de geo" mean?

[slim]

Another member seems to think that i have the spelling wrong but just for note in the future. Im using the Munster, Ring dialect.

Its a kind of goodbye i suppose. Not easily translatable into English. The phrase means more than the words.

Back on topic,

We are in dangerous times that will endanger the people. It will not only be middle eastern people by the end.

People will see racism so the government may broaden their scopes to...everyone who defies the state. It is possible.

Now they are thinking of charging people with treason which still carries the penalty of hanging.

[joshdavies]

What the expansion of police powers since the London bombings shows is two things - first of all that the British state is very powerful and secondly that the bombings have been used cynically as a way of making society worse and not better.

We've been told not only that the police have the right to shoot to kill (without identifying themselves as police, saying anything, or having to justify it afterwards) but that there's thousands of undercoer armed police on the London Underground after the bombings - and this is to make us feel safer, what a joke. I have a friend who lives in Beeston in Leeds (where the bombers came from) where there's been massive police repression of the young Asian community and a racist backlash, she said that one of her friends was woken up at 8 in the mrning by armedc police entering her room and interrogating her asking her about whether her brother's a terrorist, this is quite widespread. The reason isn't because they are terrorists, its because they're young and Asian.

The British state isn't just being repressive and not seeing how it can use that repression to reinforce capitalism and suppress resistance to it. The laws its putting in place clearly impact on organising in struggle. They've already talked about ID cards before the bombings, increased surveillance is obviously a bad thing if you take part in demonstrations which could face repression. They'll use 'terrorism' as an excuse to try and stop protests in the future (like the anti EU ones that'll be happening in Britain in a couple of months when the EU have various conferences and meetings here). They're even making it illegal to justify or condone terrorism in any way - this includes not only terrorism against targets in Britain but also the 'terrorism' of the Iraqi resistance' so we may be in the situation soon where the only correct anti war politics - the support for Iraqis taking up arms to defeat imperialism - is treasonous.

Shows how the state isn't a neutral force and how state repression isn't a thing of the past.

[slim]

It will end.

The oppression, racism, injustice, corruption and fascism will end. We are living in an age of men and women that will shape the contours of history for the next century. We will come of age in a time of heroics, honour and the long awaited revolution.

We will march among giants. We will be the heroes written for generations to come.

The future is there. The situation will continue to deteriorate until we will gain the mass support we have wanted for so long. It will come sooner than you think. The questions you must ask yourselves; are you willing to fight for your future and that of your children, indeed humanity. The symptoms of this oppression will spread across the first world and will need to be beaten.
The other question is, will order be restored after the revolution. For those who will not fight so they can be useful after the war (ie. philosophers and sociologists), you must think of co-operation with other philosophers and think about a new constitution.

I am no genius so my role will not be as an orchestrator of the constitution. You must all use your talents to the full. For mankind.

Do chara.

Slim

[Comrade san]

I know how cliche it is but with Jean Charles de Mendez he came out of the house suspected of being linked with the bombings, he was stopped by police, he ran, jumped the ticket barrier and ran onto the train.
I think it was fair enough he was shot, as for being shot 4,5,6,7,8,9 whatever times the papers are making up i believe that was just adrenaline.He was already disabled and dead after the first shot.

Would an innocent man run?

[Decolonize The Left]

Slim I never said anything about the spelling. I was simply asking what it meant as I didn't know what language it was in nor what it said.

Nice post by the way, very lyrical.

Indeed, we live in hard times which appear to grow darker with each day.
Our fundamental liberties are being cut to pieces bit by bit,
so as not to alarm the general public.
Our brothers and sisters die in foreign lands for rich men's greed.
And what is left of 'freedom',
what is left,
is being pounded into submission.
We are being turned into sheep,
To graze on modified foods all day,
to amuse ourselves with plastic and cloth,
and to spend.
to spend our money,
and indefinately our lives,
on nothing.

-- August

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh the man ran from ununiformed police. He didnt know they were police, they oculda just been men brandishing guns pretending to be police.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 07:52 AM
PS: Slim, what does "Do chara de geo" mean?
I'm pretty sure he mixed up the d and g, as that would read 'your friend forever'.

[PRC-UTE]

What a surprise! Not really sadly.



Forces trained in Britain's dirty war in Northern Ireland involved in
de Menezes killing
By Julie Hyland
8 August 2005
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/aug2005/mene-a08.shtml

The admission that army special forces were involved in the police
execution of Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes confirms that the techniques
perfected in the dirty war conducted by British imperialism in Northern
Ireland are now being employed on the streets of Britain.

The Guardian reported August 4 that "a new army special forces regiment
was involved in the operation" that resulted in de Menezes being killed
with eight bullets, seven to the head, in a London subway carriage on
July 22.

Whitehall sources had confirmed, the newspaper continued, that the
"Special Reconnaissance Regiment, set up in April to help combat
international terrorism, was deployed in the surveillance operation" that led to
the innocent electrician's death.

The report continued that the unit, "modelled on an undercover unit
that operated in Northern Ireland, were engaged in 'low level intelligence
behind the scenes' when the Brazilian was shot.

"There was 'no direct military involvement in the shooting', the
sources added."

Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon announced the formation of the Special
Reconnaissance Regiment (SRR) on April 5. In a written statement to
Parliament he said that the unit, which would become operational the
following day, was in line with the "Strategic Defence Review (SDR) New Chapter
published in July 2002 [which] stated that we planned to enhance and
build upon the capabilities of UK Special Forces."

The SRR "has been formed to meet a growing worldwide demand for special
reconnaissance capability," Hoon's statement continued.

"[T]his regiment will provide improved support to expeditionary
operations overseas and form part of the Defence contribution to the
Government's comprehensive strategy to counter international terrorism. The SRR
will bring together personnel from existing capabilities and become the
means of the further development of the capability. Due to the
specialist nature of the unit, it will come under the command of the Director
Special Forces and be a part of the UK Special Forces group."

The Scotsman, April 6, reported, "The Special Reconnaissance Regiment
is expected to play a key role in hunting down insurgents in Iraq and in
the forthcoming UK-led operation against al-Qaeda remnants-including
Osama bin Laden-in Afghanistan.

"Members will be expected to infiltrate terrorist organisations and
identify targets to be attacked by other units."

It continued, "Once SRR surveillance teams have identified human
targets, other units will then eliminate them. It is understood that the new
regiment will be based alongside the SAS at Stirling Lines barracks,
near Hereford."

De Menezes was certainly "eliminated." But there was no "intelligence"
on the young man, much less anything to connect him with Al Qaeda or
any other terrorist group.

According to the Guardian's August 4 report, de Menezes was targeted
because the three-storey block of flats in which he lived in south London
was under surveillance following the failed bombing incidents on July
21.

"Mr. De Menezes was followed and seen boarding a No 2 bus, heading
north towards Stockwell," the newspaper said. "Boarding with him, it is
understood, were several plainclothes officers. Defence sources refuse to
comment on suggestions that they may have been members of the Special
Reconnaissance Regiment.

"Other officers followed the bus in vehicles. When it became clear that
Stockwell tube was his possible destination, a team of armed police
officers in plain clothes were alerted. They fired eight shots at Mr. De
Menezes at close range after the 27-year-old Brazilian ran onto a tube
train."

Why police apparently allowed a man they considered to be a potential
suicide bomber to board a bus remains unexplained. As does virtually
everything else to do with de Menezes' killing. But the SRR's pedigree
gives some indication of why those involved in the young man's death felt
they could act with impunity as judge, jury and executioner.

The "personnel from existing capabilities" announced by Hoon to
constitute the SRR are drawn from the death squads employed by the British
state for decades in Northern Ireland.

According to a Telegraph report July 25, 2004 that revealed plans to
establish the SRR, the new unit "will at first be formed from members of
a highly secret surveillance agency-the Joint Communications Unit
Northern Ireland-which has worked in Ulster for more than 20 years. The
unit, which worked with the SAS, MI5 and the Special Branch, perfected the
art of covert surveillance in urban and rural areas and created a
network of double agents who supplied the British security forces with
intelligence on terrorist attacks."

A report in the Sunday Times, also July 25, 2004, said, "More than 150
members of the 14th Intelligence and Security Company have already left
Northern Ireland" to form the SRR's "nucleus."

From the early 1970s, British imperialism waged a notorious dirty war
against the Republican movement in Northern Ireland as part of its
efforts to maintain control of the six counties. The 14th Intelligence was
one of three army-sponsored undercover squads dedicated to this aim. The
others were the Force Research Unit (FRU) and 22 Squadron.

In 1998, leaked military intelligence documents confirmed that these
methods included the assassination of Republicans.

In March that year, the Sunday Telegraph alleged that secret
documentation it had received showed that the FRU "was complicit in a series of
murders carried out by the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) between 1987
and 1990." The UDA is a fascistic, loyalist paramilitary organisation,
supporting union with Britain.

The Sunday Telegraph's article also revealed the role played by Brian
Nelson, a key FRU operative. Nelson became the UDA's primary
intelligence officer and passed on the names, photographs and addresses of
suspected IRA members from Army Intelligence records to UDA gunmen for
assassination.

Nelson was implicated in some in 15 murders, 15 attempted murders and
62 conspiracies to murder. These included the killing of Belfast
solicitor Patrick Finucane, after he successfully defended an IRA man.
Finucane was murdered at his home in 1989 in front of his wife and children.

Nelson was arrested in 1990 and stood trial for murder in 1992. In a
deal struck with the attorney general at the time, Patrick Mayhew, Nelson
agreed to plead guilty to lesser charges and was jailed for 10 years,
of which he served just six.

The British state was forced to convene an official inquiry into
collusion between the UDA and the British army as part of its efforts to
establish power-sharing structures in Northern Ireland under the 1998 Good
Friday Agreement. The investigation, headed by police chief John
Stevens, confirmed Nelson's role in UDA assassinations. But every attempt was
made to suppress Steven's findings and prevent further information
being revealed about the extent of the FRU's activities.

The British state defended its murderous undercover operations,
claiming they were directed only against known IRA terrorists. But dozens of
Catholics with no connection to the IRA were killed by loyalist
paramilitaries. In fact, the FRU's activities were deliberately aimed at
stoking sectarian tensions in the north, so as to create the necessary
climate for Britain's ruling elite to maintain its colonial occupation
through police-state methods.

The FRU was formally wound up in 1990, but reconstituted in a different
guise.

Scotland's Sunday Herald, July 24, confirmed that in the wake of the
July 7 terror bombings in London that killed 56 people, "Techniques used
by the SAS-trained 14th Intelligence Company-also known as The Det-in
tracking and killing terrorists are being taught to British police
firearms teams such as SO19 and to MI5.

"The methods of British military intelligence's Force Research Unit
(FRU) and its successor outfit, the Joint Support Group (JSG), in
recruiting and handling double-agents in terror cells are also being taught to
MI5 and Special Branch."

The Sunday Mirror, July 17, 2005, also reported that the SRR had become
active in the capital. It quoted an army source stating, "The regiment
has been given a number of minor tasks in Iraq where they have been
working with the SAS but this is its first major challenge."

The cold-blooded shooting of de Menezes is the first manifestation of
how they intend to rise to this challenge.

[slim]

An innocent man would run. The "police" were not in uniform, showed no ID and pulled out arms in the pursuit of a man who was an illegal immigrant. The man could have believed they were immigration police; or more likely, an armed gang chasing him as part of a hate crime.

I smell a cover up.

Everyone looking at this post should look at what I and August have said. It is your duty to take action.

Do chara