Paris Commune and the USSR

[D_Bokk]

I've been debating a Stalinist for a long time about various things such as Stalin's leadership, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and Marx...

I know Marx liked the Paris Commune. The Stalinist had brought up that the demcracy in the Paris Commune and the democracy in the USSR during Stalin's time was the exact same. I knew enough that the Paris Commune had a lot more dispersion of opinions, as opposed to the USSR having just one, Marxist-Leninism.

I'm looking for more differences, if anyone has some - it will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Clarksist]

The CCCP had a facade of democracy which wasn't a working one.

Sadly, everytime someone hears the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" they freak out. All that means is that the proletariat rule over the country till communism takes hold.

However, that Stalinist is wrong. The CCCP had no true democratic elections.

[resisting arrest with violence]

Yeah the commune was a representative institution not a bourgeoise talking shop- type of parliamentary government or a Stalinist thuggery.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 05:07 PM
I've been debating a Stalinist for a long time about various things such as Stalin's leadership, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and Marx...

I know Marx liked the Paris Commune. The Stalinist had brought up that the demcracy in the Paris Commune and the democracy in the USSR during Stalin's time was the exact same. I knew enough that the Paris Commune had a lot more dispersion of opinions, as opposed to the USSR having just one, Marxist-Leninism.

I'm looking for more differences, if anyone has some - it will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I would suggest starting with Marx's writings on the Paris Commune, contained in The Civil War in France. He writes a lot about the characteristics of the Commune, including the various organizations that composed the Communard leadership, the transformation of the state structure, etc. I would guess that, as you read through Marx on the Commune, you will see where it differed from Stalin's USSR.

Miles

[The Living Red]

Forgive my confusion, I'm not sure: was the Paris Commune actually a Communist Movement or not?

[Bolshevist]

It was the first proletarian revolution, but sadly the strength of the proletariat at that given time, and the lack of developed leadership led to the eventual fall of the commune.

[Sabocat]

I wouldn't necessarily say it was the lack of strenght of the proletariat or leadership. The commune was functioning pretty well with worker collectives, the highest "official" not paid more than a skilled worker etc, etc.

The defeat really came from them not arming themselves more extensively, and the brokered deal between the Germans and the French gov't, where the Germans (who had layed seige to Paris) allowed the French army to pass so as to slaughter the Communards.

The commune was not able to repel the full force of the French govt. army.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh, unfortunatley the revolution didnt spread to other parts of europe as it had in 1848. There isnt really a lot you can do when two states armies are out to get you and you only have one city, and even at that porbably not that many guns or well trained men.

[Reds]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 2 2005, 01:11 PM
Yeh, unfortunatley the revolution didnt spread to other parts of europe as it had in 1848. There isnt really a lot you can do when two states armies are out to get you and you only have one city, and even at that porbably not that many guns or well trained men.
this is what happend to the cccp I do not think lenin or trotsky belived socialism could work in a backwards nation like russia so they created the revolution thinking it would spread to the more developed west when the revolts there were put down lenin new the needed to develope fast so this is how we get state capitalism and the New Economic polcy.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh thats true. If the german revolution had succeded it's quite like it would have spread to the rest of europe.

[Poum_1936]

...the demcracy in the Paris Commune and the democracy in the USSR during Stalin's time was the exact same.

And capitalism is the only system that works. HA!


I knew enough that the Paris Commune had a lot more dispersion of opinions, as opposed to the USSR having just one, Marxist-Leninism.

Well at least in the RSFSR and for a short duration in the USSR, there was a wide variety of free debate. The Bolsheviks were intially in a coalition government with the Left SR's. Then with cultural and economic backwardness with the increasing isolation of the workers state led the bucreaucracy to pave the way for counter-revolution.

Also, there is a wide variety of people who call themselves Marxist-Leninst, and share totally different views on alot of key points.

There were four key points to be learned from the Paris Commune to fight bureaucracy in a workers state.

1) Free and democratic elections to all positions
2) Right of recall of all officials
3) No official to recieve a higher wage than a skilled worker
4) Gradually all the taks of running of society and the state to be performed by everyone in turn, or as Lenin put it: "Any cook should be able to be prime minister."

At the beginning of the new Russian workers state all four points were incoporated into how the state works. Lenin even urged the workers to take the intiative themselves without waiting for the state decree or measure. Unfortunatly, due to Russia still being semi-fuedal, a number of concessions were made which went back on the princples of the Paris Commune.

---

"Since it is considered necessary to adopt the most energetic measures to lower the salaries of officials in all state, communal, and private undertakings and institutions, without exception, the Council of People's Commissars decrees:

1. There shall be a maximum limit to the salary of a People's Commissar of 500 roubles a month, with an allowance of 100 roubles for each child; the size of apartments is limited to one room per member of the family.

2. All local Soviets of Workers', Soldiers' and Peasants' Deputies are asked to prepare and implement revolutionary measures for the special taxation of senior personnel.

3. The Ministry of Finance and all individual Commissars shall make an immediate study of the accounts of ministries and shall reduce all excessively high salaries and pensions."

-Lenin

"All this time, Bakayev of the Cheka was going round with holes in his boots. In spite of my special rations as a government official, I would have died of hunger without the sordid manipulations of the black market, where we traded the petty possessions we had brought in from France. The eldest son of my friend Yonov, Zinoviev's brother-in-law, an Executive member of the Soviet and founder and director of the State Library, died of hunger before our very eyes. All this while we were looking after considerable stocks, and even riches, but on the State's behalf and under rigorous control. Our salaries were limited to the 'Communist maximum,' equal to the average wage of a skilled worker."

- Victor Serge

"No political body more sensitive and responsive to the popular will was ever invented. And this was necessary, for in time of revolution the popular will changes with great rapidity. For example, during the first week of December 1917, there were parades and demonstrations in favour of a Constituent Assembly othat is to say, against the Soviet power. One of these parades was fired on by some irresponsible Red Guards, and several people killed. The reaction to this stupid violence was immediate. Within twelve hours the complexion of the Petrograd Soviet changed. More than a dozen Bolshevik deputies were withdrawn, and replaced by Mensheviki."

- John Reed

---

As for the princples under Stalins rule, I cant say anything about the wage during Stalins time. I dont know enough about that. But I have seen Ceausescu's room, and my own has more in it.

As for free elections and the right for recall, Ive neard of the like of it after the bureaucracy consolidated its power. At the time of the rise of the bureaucracy the Russian working class was exhausted after revolution, civil war, famine, and defeat after defeat of the international movement leaving the Soviet republic isolated. As the veteran Yugoslav Communist Ante Ciliga, who was in Russia in the mid-20's commenteed:

"The impression that these meetings and private conversations left me was favorable, on the whole; but I was struck by the passive attitude of many of the workers. One felt that they had nethier interest nor enthusiasm, but on the contrary a firgidity of manner, an exaggereated reticence. It was depressing. The workers seemed to say by their silence: it is all very well but what does it mean to us? One had to pester each person to get a word out."

The workers ever increasingly stopped particpating in government chores. Will the buceaucracy ever so more started pushing its own agenda, which was most certainly not proletarian democracy.

Come on, how do you kill most of the Old Bolshevik's on charges on Trotskyism and claim full democracy? Democracy requires a free debate and exchange of ideas, not wacking the opposing side. Oh silly me, I forgot the Trotskyists are in pay of zee Germans, which reminds, I havent recieved my check in awhile. Gotta see whats that about. :rolleyes:

And if there is not full fledged democracy then you can sure bet that the workers were not taking turns running the government.


this is what happend to the cccp I do not think lenin or trotsky belived socialism could work in a backwards nation like russia so they created the revolution thinking it would spread to the more developed west

tru dat. In fact, that is theme in most of Lenin's works post 1917.


when the revolts there were put down lenin new the needed to develope fast so this is how we get state capitalism and the New Economic polcy.

The NEP was created to save the revolution in the short run (i.e. stop the peasant revolts, which the NEP did stop), but in the long run it was a major player in the degeneration of the revolution.

[enigma2517]

The inevitable degeneration of the revolution.

[tatu]

Try this (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/pariscommune/lenincommune.html).

[Sabocat]

The other critical mistake they made was the failure to take over the central bank.

They stayed outside it with almost a reverence. Taking it would have severely weakened the governments ability to defeat them.