Quantum Physics and Religion

[Nickademus]

interestingly enough, quantam physics is more and more starting to prove the theories held by wiccans. i wish i could explain but i'm not a science person.

and many humans aren't logical in the pure philosophical sense of the word so just because something seems logical to me doesn't mean it would be logical to you.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Nickademus
Interestingly enough, quantum physics is more and more starting to prove the theories held by wiccans. I wish I could explain but I'm not a science person.

Because you're "not a science person", it is easy to "fool you" with a bit of "scientific jargon".

Quantum physics is difficult -- in fact, words "cannot really describe it"...you need some very complicated mathematics to really pin it down.

Consequently, it's pretty easy to manipulate verbal descriptions of quantum mechanics so as to "prove" Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca-ism, or...anything you like.

And people who are "not science people" can easily succumb to what is nothing more than bafflegab...efforts by the unscrupulous to sell books to a gullible public.

There is nothing in quantum physics that "proves" any religious claim whatsoever...or even leaves any room for such claims.

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[Nickademus]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Aug 4 2005, 04:32 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Aug 4 2005, 04:32 AM)
Nickademus
Interestingly enough, quantum physics is more and more starting to prove the theories held by wiccans. I wish I could explain but I'm not a science person.

Because you're "not a science person", it is easy to "fool you" with a bit of "scientific jargon".

Quantum physics is difficult -- in fact, words "cannot really describe it"...you need some very complicated mathematics to really pin it down.

Consequently, it's pretty easy to manipulate verbal descriptions of quantum mechanics so as to "prove" Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca-ism, or...anything you like.

And people who are "not science people" can easily succumb to what is nothing more than bafflegab...efforts by the unscrupulous to sell books to a gullible public.

There is nothing in quantum physics that "proves" any religious claim whatsoever...or even leaves any room for such claims.

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i knew i'd bump heads with you hear again redstar.

first of all, i'm not fooled by science. i don't understand it well, but as stated my best friend and her brother do. she has tried to explain it to me. i don't accept what she says blindly because i don't know enough. if she were here, she, a since person could explain it.

i'm not saying that quantum physics proves there is a goddess, i'm simply stating that my understanding, which is not as complete as others, is starting to prove wiccan theories about energy and movement.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Nickademus
I'm not saying that quantum physics proves there is a goddess, I'm simply stating that my understanding, which is not as complete as others, is starting to prove wiccan theories about energy and movement.

If your best friend and her brother told you that, then it is not possible that they "understand" quantum physics.

Whatever the wiccans or some particular wiccan may say, their ideas are not "theory" by scientific standards nor is it possible that what they do say "anticipated" quantum physics in any significant way.

It would be the equivalent of saying that the book of Genesis represents an early and primitive form of "big bang theory".

Ain't so.

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[Nickademus]

it is also possible that thy do understand quantum physics and you don't truly understand wicca.

and i'm not saying wiccan anticipated quantum physics. i never said that. perhaps you should stop reading things into what i say.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Nickademus
It is also possible that they do understand quantum physics and you don't truly understand wicca.

This is pointless -- let them come on the board and explain why they think quantum physics has some relationship to wicca.

But it's going to be pretty embarrassing for them. :(

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[Sihvyl]

Quantum physics is just another example of the designed system we live in IMO. As for it's influence on religion, I would say it butresses it atleast. I see religion as the worship of your believed diety and the various rules and culture that come along with it. Quantum physics could easily be used as evidence of a created system, further strengthening your religiousness. That one's up to you to decide though....created system of rules? Or developed system of rules?

[Publius]

Why would a God create a random Universe?

Why would a God, as Einstein put it, play dice?

[Sihvyl]

Why would he create a universe? Bah, who knows, but I'm glad he did!

As for playing dice, indeed, I believe he did not. Everything is precisely they way it was intended (besides humans maybe, who would've known we'd turn out like this!)

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Sihvyl
Quantum physics could easily be used as evidence of a created system, further strengthening your religiousness.

Only if no one happened to be standing around who actually knew anything about the subject.

Reality at the quantum level is indeterminate and probabilistic..."cause and effect" have an entirely different meaning "down there" than they do up here at the macro-level where we live.

Einstein spent the last decades of his life in attempting to find a classical "cause and effect" relationship in quantum reality...and couldn't do it.

Unless you want to assume that "God" is beavering away at the quantum level -- causing a neutron to decay into a proton and an electron at this moment and not the next -- and doing this trillions and trillions of times every second (quantum events are very numerous and their duration is very brief)...then the argument that "God" is hiding in quantum uncertainty collapses.

I think people who mumble "quantum physics" as "proof of God" are, in all likelihood, simply ignorant of that subject.

But when they write and sell books that purport to argue that position, then they are con-men, pure and simple.

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[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If the universe is designed, then who designed the designer? The trouble with anthropism is that you always get the "turtles all the way down" problem.

I have yet to see any evidence or even reasoning whatsoever to indicate that Quantum Theory is evidence of a designer of some sort.

[Guest1]

It is not science itself that is "buttressing" religion. It is a pervasive presence of reactionary modes of thought colouring the results of some scientists. Just as the big bang has little basis, and is now being used as a way to let god in through the back door, so too in every scientific field there are those scientists doing questionable work and allowing questionable conclusions to be derived from them.

You have to remember that the scientific community is not monolithic, some of them have in fact abandoned science, especially when it comes to such complicated fields as looking at events at an extremely small subatomic level and time scale. There are those, such as the copenhagen school, who are in reality so idealist as to reject the idea of a universe independent of human observation. Basically asserting that there is no objective universe, returning us to the meaningless philosophical idealism of years past.

[Freigemachten]

What if the universe created god? Any one read the Ender series? talkin about somethin like that.

[deathpasser]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:18 PM
If the universe is designed, then who designed the designer? The trouble with anthropism is that you always get the "turtles all the way down" problem.
The idea is that the designer is infinite and all-powerful, that this designer has no designer. Similarily, Atheists would beleive that the design does not need a designer since the designe always was.

I don't see a problem with the designer theory, because of the fundemental ideas behind it is that there is no designer of the designer, hence no "turtles all the way down" dilema.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The idea is that the designer is infinite and all-powerful, that this designer has no designer.

What do you mean by infinite? You do know of course that being 'all-powerful' is a paradox? Can this designer create a rock he cannot lift?


Similarily, Atheists would beleive that the design does not need a designer since the designe always was.

Bzzzt, wrong. Atheists do not see a design at all, hence no need for a designer.


I don't see a problem with the designer theory, because of the fundemental ideas behind it is that there is no designer of the designer, hence no "turtles all the way down" dilema.

But, using the arguments put forth by creationists, surely the designer must have had a designer?

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:57 PM
Why would a God create a random Universe?

Why would a God, as Einstein put it, play dice?
Einstein’s been proven right in general terms if you accept sting theory…there are underlying determinate thus it’s not pure chance. That’s not to say its absolute determinism because everyone knows that absurd or it is because I say it is.

[Sihvyl]

The designer indeed has to have a designer in my opinion. Who, and what designed it, is for him/her to find out for themselves just as we try and find ours.