Log in

View Full Version : Can ‘Human Nature’ Change?



afnan
4th August 2005, 22:10
Among the arguments against socialism is that it goes against human nature. You cant change human nature is the frequently heard refrain. That may be true of basic human instincts such as the urge to obtain food to eat, reproduce, seek shelter, make and wear protective clothing. However, what has usually been referred to as human nature has changed a great deal during the long history of humankind. As social systems changed, many habits and behavioral traits also changed as people adapted to new social structures. Anatomically modern humans emerged some 150,000 to 200,000 years ago. Over the tens of thousands of years since, many different kinds of social organizations and societies have developed. Initially, most were based on hunting and gathering, while for about the last 7,000 years many have been based on agriculture. These societies were organized as clans, villages, tribes, city-states, nations, and/or empires.

Anthropologists who studied primitive societies found very different human relations and human nature than the highly competitive, dog-eat-dog, selfish characteristics that have dominated during the capitalist period. The economics of these early precapitalist societies often took the form of reciprocity and redistribution. Trade existed, of course, but trade between tribes was not for personal gain. Agricultural land was neither privately owned nor could it be bought and sold, instead, it was generally allocated and reallocated by village chiefs. Much of the food collected by the chiefs was redistributed at village ceremonial feasts. There were wars and domination by local tyrantsthese were not perfect societies by any meansbut they had different values, social mores, and human natures. As Karl Polanyi explained in 1944: The outstanding discovery of recent historical and anthropological research is that mans economy, as a rule, is submerged in his social relationships. He does not act so as to safeguard his individual interest in the possession of material goods; he acts so as to safeguard his social standing, his social claims, his social assets. In such societies the economy was a function of the social relations and people were not allowed to profit from trading transactions.

The variety of structure and organization of past civilizations is truly striking. It was not so long agoin the span of human existencethat the native peoples in North and South America had a very different consciousness than that imposed by the invasions and conquests of the European armies and settlers. Thus Christopher Columbus wrote after his first voyage to the West: Nor have I been able to learn whether they held personal property, for it seemed to me that whatever one had, they all took shares of....They are so ingenuous and free with all they have that no one would believe it who has not seen it; of anything they possess, if it be asked of them, they never say no; on the contrary, they invite you to share it and show as much love as if their hearts went with it.

According to William Brandon, a prominent historian of American Indians: Many travelers in the heart of America, the Indian world real before their eyes, echoed such sentiments year after year, generation after generation. These include observers of the most responsible sort, the missionary Du Tertre for a random example, writing from the Caribbean in the 1650s: ...they are all equal, without anyone recognizing any sort of superiority or any sort of servitude....Neither is richer or poorer than his companion and all unanimously limit their desires to that which is useful and precisely necessary, and are contemptuous of all other things, superfluous things, as not being worthy to be possessed.... And Montaigne wrote of three Indians who were in France in the late sixteenth century. They explained to him about the common Indian custom of dividing the people into halves, groups with special and separate duties for ritual or administrative reasons, such as the Summer and Winter people of the various North American tribes. The Indians were struck by the two opposing groups in France. They had perceived there were men amongst us full gorged with all sorts of commodities and others which hunger-starved, and bare with need and povertie begged at their gates: and found it strange these moieties so needy could endure such an injustice, and they tooke not the others by the throte, or set fire on their house....1

The European settlers in the thirteen colonies in what became the United States had no doubts about their superiority in every way over the wild savage Indians. But let us take a look at the Iroquois Nations. They had democracy involving not political parties but peoples participation in decision-making and in removing unsatisfactory officials. Women voted with the men and had special responsibilities in certain areas. At the same time the civilized settlers relied on white indentured servants and black slaves and severely constrained womens rights. It took three and a half centuries after the pilgrims landed to free the slaves and four centuries for women to get the right to vote!

We have briefly referred above to societies in which economics was subservient to social relations. That changed dramatically in the evolution of capitalism as private property, money, and trade for gain came to the forefront. Social relations became but reflections of the dominating force of societys capitalist economics instead of the reverse. Aristotle foresaw the dangers ahead because some aspects of what would become capitalism were present in the ancient world:

There are two sorts of wealth-getting, as I have said; one is a part of household management, the other is retail trade: the former necessary and honorable, while that which consists in exchange is justly censured; for it is unnatural, and a mode by which men gain from one another. The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest. And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. (Politics)
Although Aristotle supported slavery, which he apparently found natural, he thought selling and charging interest to make a gain unnatural. The situation is now reversed. Most people nowadays see slavery as unnatural, while selling to make a profit and charging interest seem like the most natural of human activities.

It is, of course, doubtful whether the concept of a human nature means anything at all because the consciousness, behavior, habits, and values of humans can be so variable and are influenced by the history and culture that develops in a given society. Not only has so-called human nature changed, but the ideology surrounding the components of human nature has also changed dramatically. The glorification of making money, the sanctioning of all the actions necessary to do so, and the promotion of the needed human traitsunnatural and repugnant to Aristotleis now the norm of capitalist societies.

During capitalist development, including the recent past, what many have considered obvious characteristics of human nature have been shown to be nonsense. For example, it was once considered a part of human nature that women were not able to perform certain tasks competently. It was extremely unusual for women to be physicians, partially because of the belief that they were not capable of learning and using the needed skills. Now women doctors are common, and women are frequently more than half of the students in medical school. The recent harebrained remarks by Harvard Universitys president that perhaps it is part of human nature that women cant do quality work in math and science indicates that a strong ideological view of human nature still exists. This sentiment is now supposedly made more scientific by presumed genetic differences, even in areas where none have been demonstrated. It is clear what many consider human nature is actually a set of viewpoints and prejudices that flow out of the culture of a particular society.

Capitalism has existed for about 500 yearsmercantile (or merchant) capitalism for about 250 followed by industrial capitalism for the last 250less than 0.4 percent of the entire period of human existence. (In large parts of the world, capitalism arrived later as the system expanded and has held sway for an even smaller portion of time.) During this small slice of human history the cooperative, caring, and sharing nature within the human character has been downplayed while aggressive competitiveness has been brought to prominence for the purpose of fostering, and surviving within, a system based on the accumulation of capital. A culture has developed along with capitalismepitomized by greed, individualism (everyone for themselves), exploitation of men and women by others, and competition. The competition occurs among departments in companies and, of course, among companies and countries, and workers seeking jobs, and it permeates peoples thinking. Another aspect of the culture of capitalism is the development of consumerismthe compulsion to purchase more and more, unrelated to basic human needs or happiness. As Joseph Schumpeter described it decades ago ...the great majority of changes in commodities consumed has been forced by producers on consumers who, more often than not, have resisted the change and have had to be educated by elaborate psychotechnics of advertising (Business Cycles, vol. 2 [McGraw-Hill, 1936], 73).

If human nature, values, and relations have changed before, it hardly needs pointing out that they may change again. Indeed, the notion that human nature is frozen into place is simply another way that those supporting the present system attempt to argue that society is frozen in place. As John Dewey wrote in an article on Human Nature for The Encyclopeia of the Social Sciences in 1932,

The present controversies between those who assert the essential fixity of human nature and those who believe in a great measure of modifiability center chiefly around the future of war and the future of a competitive economic system motivated by private profit. It is justifiable to say without dogmatism that both anthropology and history give support to those who wish to change these institutions. It is demonstrable that many of the obstacles to change which have been attributed to human nature are in fact due to the inertia of institutions and to the voluntary desire of powerful classes to maintain the existing status.

----

My Comments:

This article inquires into the human nature and its coorelation with the advent of sociaism. Many people argue that socialism is bound to fail as it is against human nature. It is necessary for these people to understand the dynamic nature of human nature. Karl Marx has also discussed some aspects of human nature in "Critique to the Gotha Program" where he introduced a transitional persiod after the proletarian revolution leading to socialism.

Holocaustpulp
5th August 2005, 02:04
Very informative and useful. Thanks for showing it to us readers.

- HP

Decolonize The Left
7th August 2005, 03:39
The argument of "Socialism will fail because it is against human nature" is worthless.

Firstly, no one can define 'human nature' other than very very basic, animal instincts.

Secondly, this argument assumes the realist view that human nature is inherently 'evil', in a sense. This is totally subjective, and therefore, without further evidence or argument, holds no ground.

If one is an optimist, or of the liberal (in the political science termonolgy) paradigm, one would belive human nature to be inherently good. And in this sense, socialism would work.
This is of course in the most broadest of terms, and I thank afnan for posting the article, while long and very historical, it was informative and helpful.
I merely think this argument is a weak one, and can be disassembled fairly quickly.

-- August

JC1
7th August 2005, 04:14
a few points id like to add

- No non-andetdodal evidence for Human Nature or a "greed" gene.

- Even under Capitalism, Co-operatoin rains supreme. You cant run a factory if every one dosent do there task and co-operate.

Defyman
7th August 2005, 12:07
Again the stupid-crap argument of human nature. I think that if we see the birth of communistic societies as an evolution process it'll be much easier and accurate to prove our thesis.

Well we can accept that long time ago, human was an uncivilised creature and its behaviour was worse than nowadays. But through history human beings developed culture (wow how?i thought they were just selfish monkeys!). Revolutions explode and humanity changed the road it was on..

Of course those who bring up the human nature thing usually overdo it.. Well it's true that human beings behave greedy, but this is not the fundamental characteristic of human kind.The change from capitalism to socialism and then communism will not come in one day. In fact, it is so difficult that it may never come (hell no!!). But the matter is that societies CAN change and HAVE changed in the past. To accept that human nature is bad is just an act of conformity to the system..

Just look how oxymoron is the argument of human nature:
--Lets accept that human beings are very selfish and greedy (not so good=bad).
--Capitalism is an economic system based on those two characteristics.

Well in a system that its units (producers-stock holders and consumers) act selfish and greedy, in a law environment which justifies and even promotes this behaviour,conflicts would be very common phenomena.. And of course they are (look at all these wars and collisions that take place every day!)
OH MY.....this seems to me as a very catastrophic-destructive concept...EVEN IF HUMAN NATURE IS SO BAD, THEN WE SHOULD NOT COMBINE IT WITH CAPITALISM

My opinion though is that human nature evolves as human societies evolve..human beings interact with each other..so lets change human society and eventually human nature will become more humane..

Social Greenman
7th August 2005, 15:35
Like I wrote on another thread...If greed were a factor then workers would demand their full value of the labor and refuse the capitalist any surplus labor in which profit comes from.

Organic Revolution
7th August 2005, 19:14
it is not human nature to be greedy, people have just gotten used to it.

Saketh
7th August 2005, 23:18
In order to see why those detractors are into the greed argument, it is best to analyze the origins of capitalism.

In the feudal society, each kingdom was self-sufficient in the basic needs of man - food, water, and shelter. The kings, vassals, and serfs would each have these needs met, albeit at different levels. Then came the wants; spices, dyes, and other luxurious goods. The only method of getting these was through the merchants, or, as we know them, the bourgeoisie. It was under the strictest government edicts that the prices of commodities should not fluctuate, and that only slight profits are permitted to the mercantile class. However, the merchants, realizing their power in society, cast off these barriers to profits, and demanded increasingly large sums for the luxurious goods, eventually overthrowing the king as the rulers of society. Thus, infantile capitalism arose from the feudal society. The reason capitalism arose from the feudal society was due to the greed of the merchants, and the merchants grew to be the richest and most lavish of all the classes. Slowly, the gap between the bourgeoisie and their workers increased, to the point where the workers considered greed to be synonymous with success, and success only possible under capitalism.


In The German Ideology Karl Marx said:


For the widespread generation of thec communist consciousness and for the the success of the cause, it is necessary that man should suffer a massive change, a change which can only take place in a practical movement, a revolution...

Che NJ
9th August 2005, 21:25
greed may at times seem like human nature, but what really sets us apart from other animals is we have adapted to living and cooperating in large groups. If human nature is responsible for any social behavior itt is friendship and cooporation

Decolonize The Left
9th August 2005, 22:23
I disagree that greed is human nature. Greed is a product of a capitalist focus on material goods as the center of living. Saketh decribed the origins of this very well in his post, I will continue briefly.

We live in a society where people are not people, they are consumers. And with this mindset, their ultimate goal is to consume. Be it food, material, property, or just money, they must keep consuming. This is another definition of greed. It is totally engrained in the mindset of developed capitalist countries.

Greed is not human nature. It is socially constructed, and therefore can be dismantled. It's just a lot deeper than most people realize.

-- August

Saketh
14th August 2005, 05:08
The term "human nature" has vastly outgrown its boundaries. Whereas it used to refer to only those animal instincts retained in the R-Complex, it now describes common knowledge. The only form of greed that can be verified as part of human nature is embodied in procreation. Selfishness in the interest of creating offspring and selfishness in the interest of preserving those offspring are two forms of greed that cannot be denied, and are found in most animal species. Thus, an economic revolution in and of itself cannot stand. It must be part of the greater moral revolution, of which the abolition of societal-greed is a demand. According to S. Radhakrishnan, "The enemy we have to fight is not capitalism or communism. It is our folly, our spiritual blindness, our love of power, our lust for domination...On the rock of moral law and not on the shifting sands of political or economic expediency can be built a civlized society with individual freedom, social justice, and political equality." When Karl Marx spoke of revolution, he was not clear. He did detail certain points, but left many others blank. The slate of capitalism is not easily erased. The people most immoral are those with the most capital, and the people most moral are those with the least capital. Reform the morality of the people, and society will reform itself.

Greed is not in human nature. It lies in the social institutions, and the society with institutes them.

Decolonize The Left
14th August 2005, 05:36
Well put Saketh.

-- August

Commie-Pinko
14th August 2005, 06:13
THe argument of human nature is not without merit. They are right insofar as human nature is largely one of selfishness. People act in their own interest, whether it is direct or indirect, on average. If people donate to charities, it is because they get something out of it or have some relation to the charity.

People work hard in their families because they want their offspring to have good fortunes in the future. They want their family lines to succeed. Like many animals, humans work for their own good and successful passage of genetic information, one way or another. It is very rare that people act purely in terms of selflessness.

This does not mean tha human nature is completely devoid of altruism That's not true at all. In fact, many animals other than humans exibit a type of natural altruism, and such examples can be found in college level bio texts. I think the exact term is Naturalistic Altruism. In such cases, the individual sacrifices his life for the greater good in hopes that the rest of the members who have close ties to the individal can mate and reproduce, thus furthering the clan/group etc.

Humans are very social creatures, and they too have altruistic tendencies that compliment their selfish ones. Personally, I think people are more selfish than truely altruistic. Frequently, humans act in terms of Rational Self Interest when dealing with economics. This is why capitalism works very well.

This does not mean that human nature cannot change to some extent. Human nature isn't static, as people are not only a product of nature, but of nurture. People can be molded, but it's difficult to change people. It takes a lot of time, effort, and probably technology. I do not believe that, in any realistic time frame, humanity will become some type of "star-trek mentality" in which people work for the betterment of everyone else or for the pleasure of self-improvement. That's not realistic.

Some cultures do work differently from western society. Take the japanese, for example. They are far less individualistic on average, and they focus more on the net than the specific. One can see this even in their proverbs. In the United States it is common that the "Squeaky wheel gets the grease." In japan, I think they say the "Standing nail gets hit down the hardest" or something to that effect. However, I do not believe that the Communist utopia in which people work for the total betterment of everone else, to each according to his need, from each according to his ability, is workable or pragmatic at this time.

I think people should be less focused on competition and more on cooperation, but in this case, one must find the rational mean--what's reasonable. Too far in any direction tends to yield negative results. Competition AND cooperation, in certain areas, should be emphasised. Both are good, and both are important in human society and mentalities. Competition breeds choice and quality, if regulated to an extent by a common interest. Cooperation can also be good, as we can see from many japanese corporate models. It creates a better work environment, and it can also lead to many achievements.


As a side note:

I am fairly capitalistic and a bit technocratic, but I would like to comment that communism DOES work, despite what other Capitalists might say. There are some good qualities about the general concept, even though I don't accept some of the specifics. Communism works very well when there are interlocking relationships among the individuals in a community, and it tends to flourish when the populations are small enough for these bonds to form. In this respect, communism works in the family, in small communities, and in populations of a couple hundred, say. It also tends to work very well when resources are very scarce or there are severe circumstances. In that case, it's a very good system, and there are some elements of communalism that can be applied to modern societies.

I also think there are benefits in Capitalism. I like the overall, or net results of the market system. Currently, Capitalism is the best overall system because it harnesses the intrinsic desire for material wants and self interest that many currently have. People want things to make them happy, and they want them of the highest quality available in the quickest time frame. So far, the market system has been very successful in it's goal of efficient distribution of goods and services among the population. From a Utilitarian perspective, Capitalism, although it does have major ethical problems that should be dealt with, does provide the most net Utility.

Capitalist nations do have poverty, and that needs to be addressed with welfare and a minimum standarding of living. I am all for welfare states and a reasonably regulated economy. However, capitalist nations tend to have some of the highest standards of living and the most overall utility. However, Capitalist nations, in full, do not exist. Most modern nations are social democracies, which mix socialism and capitalism, which I think is a good idea.

afnan
17th August 2005, 10:06
What you have said about capialism being a good system is true for the west that is maintaining a somewhat "welfare' system at the cost of the third world countries suffering. While following the utilitariam approach please include the 90% population from the third world that is keeping the rest of the 10% happy and healthy.

Zingu
17th August 2005, 17:25
Uhm, if you read Marx, you would already know the answer to this; being determines counsciness, its material reality that pushes man forwards......

I and I
23rd August 2005, 08:33
there is no definate human nature

Humans react to their specific environment, environment, economic and political environments are always changing and so will human reactions.

papi
23rd August 2005, 08:57
Marvin Harris had created a theory called cultural materialism. Based on Marx he setup the infrasctructure, structure, and superstructure. The infrastructure (modes of production and reproduction) is the basis on which the other two levels rest. The infrastructure determines the ideology politics and religion of the culture.
To understand the change of ideology that came with the reformation, all we have to look at is Hobbes. The Leviathan is the whole of the population that made up society. Each person playing his part in the society, and the society being a self sustaining organism, this was a common ideology of the time. The mercantiles endorsed and embraced Luther for several reasons. First he made the monarchy superfulous in man's relationship with god. Secondly it also mades man's morality self defined. No longer being dictated by the church. this opened the door for capitalism. The reformation was the beginning of the concept of individualism and individual achievement. Calvin can be seen as one of the culminations of this ideal. This had existed even prior to this period with the Sophists. Plato argued desperately against the sophists who saw personal gain the end result no matter what the means. To follow Plato made the best point in regards to the greedy nature of man. Plato said that the best way for man to raise his level of being is by raising the level of all of the people around him. If everyone was altruistic they are actually being the most selfish.

OleMarxco
23rd August 2005, 11:10
"Human nature" is not an excuse for not changin' the system to a society which reward's un-selfishness. They're just a-likin' to be stayin' in an organization where greed and self-motivation's, ambition's, drive your ass, not what helps' the surroundin's ;)

afnan
23rd August 2005, 15:01
papi...

can you please provide us with the link to the Marvin Harris theory of cultural materialism?

papi
23rd August 2005, 19:06
http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/Faculty/murphy/cultmat.htm

brief synopsis
you can also read Cultural Materialism: The Struggle for a Science of Culture

Ownthink
23rd August 2005, 20:41
"Human Nature" outside of seeking food and shelter for survival and whatnot, only exists in relation to the current society in place.

jaytone11
24th August 2005, 17:17
Instincts are merely experiences, conditioning of the mind, if conditioned under a capatalist mind set(society) your chocies are limited you are enslaved to greed, a different type of man is created

jaytone11
24th August 2005, 17:24
Great post by afnan very informative,
Many critical of socialism and communism argue that all of man
is different our personalities will force us to separate and want more, want reward for producing more then others
naturally some men are more intelligent then others and will want some type of profit for having special qualites or skills?

viva le revolucion!