The Place of Science

[Quantum Flea]

Greetings all!

I am relatively new to leftist thinking. Before I entered this part of my life, I made the decision to pursue a carreer in Physics.

Obviously, scientific research produces useful things for our society - things like: information about health in areas of disease cures and psychology, technology which facilitates communication and increases the availability of information, amongst many others. These types of developments are important for post-capitalist societies as well as the present one.

However, the utility of a particular field of study is not always apparent at the start. Research is very often done for the sake of it. And science consumes A LOT of resources, the most obvious example of this is space exploration.

So how do we think that science will operate post-capitalism?
How does it acquire resources?
How do we decide what types of scientific research go ahead, especially if we don't always have the benefit of knowing which areas will be useful to the community?

Cheers

[KC]

So how do we think that science will operate post-capitalism?

It will be more productive as it won't be restricted by profit or monetary boundaries.



How does it acquire resources?

???



How do we decide what types of scientific research go ahead, especially if we don't always have the benefit of knowing which areas will be useful to the community?

Whichever a scientist wants to study!


I love physics. I thought about getting a degree, but didn't think it would be worth it because to get a good job you need a masters. I went to Civil Engineering.

[Quantum Flea]

Whichever a scientist wants to study!


But resources are limited. So it would not be possible for everyone to pursue things like space exploration because the cost to society would be huge. In addition, the benefit of space exploration to society is dubious. Would anyone be able to pursue something like space exploration?

Do you see what I mean? People like yourself who are in the business of using science to construct things that are useful to society (what is it that you personally do as an engineer?) are surely necessary for society. As would be people who research ways of automating tasks in society, or people who help to find more cost-effective ways of keeping people healthy, etc.

[redstar2000]

This is a good topic!

One "hint" of an answer might be found in one of the events that was part of the 1968 general strike in France.

The particle physicists at CERN held some meetings and drafted a statement. It was indeed their desire that research priorities should be decided by scientists and not by bureaucrats.

The crucial importance of basic research is still very difficult for people to grasp...no one has ever really tried to "make a case" for it to the general public. That's something that I think it would be very important to do in a post-revolutionary society.

And it won't be easy. People can easily understand and support cancer research, for example. But "where's the usefulness" in space exploration, enormous telescopes, or particle physics? That it may take a century or more for basic research to "pay off" in new technology is a real "stretch" for many minds.

Conscious communists should struggle very hard to convince people that resources dedicated to basic research are not "wasted" on some "egghead's" idle curiosity.

It's what steadily increases the distance between humans and monkeys.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[More Fire for the People]

It's what steadily increases the distance between humans and monkeys.
The flaw is Americans are not quite ready to grasp that their ancestors were primates.


In addition, the benefit of space exploration to society is dubious. Would anyone be able to pursue something like space exploration?
I plan to go into aerospace engineering (to work with LEO aircraft-spacecraft) no matter what the mode of production is and I say that space exploration is as beneficial to humanity as the vaccine is.

So far space exploration has given us microcomputers, scratch resistance eye-glasses, devices to measure blood pressure, metal alloys, pacemakers, and a deeper meaning of life. Space colonization also offers a method to preserve ourselves and expand human knowledge.


So how do we think that science will operate post-capitalism?
Scientist decide what scientist do.


How does it acquire resources?
By requesting them or attaining them themselves.


How do we decide what types of scientific research go ahead, especially if we don't always have the benefit of knowing which areas will be useful to the community?
Alot of inventions were not seen as immediately useful but later became very useful to society including superglue, post-its, and the internet.

[apathy maybe]

Making a case for scientific research is important. I personally don't see any reason why not to let any ethical research go ahead. (Unless the resources could be better used else where, but right now everyone could have enough to eat, have a place to sleep etc. with out any resources going away from space exploration. It is not a matter of space research using limited resources that could be used else where, but rather, limited resources be squandered on killing machines.)

Ethical science is good science.

(For a interesting read goto http://www.threads.name/russell/science-ethics.html)

[Rincewind]

I think it would be made ethical by the people around it. Anybody (scientists included) will be reliant on the good will of those that directly support them to work, if not for necessities (which are everyone's right) then for luxuries (like particle accelerators).

[anomaly]

As far as which sciences to pursue, I think that in a post-capitalist world scientists themselves can get together to decide which sciences are the most beneficial to pursue. Once they talk together, they can rely the discussion to their respective communes (or by more universal means of communication). Sciences which may prove beneficial to mankind will always be pursued (even if the benfits may only be felt in the distant future).

One interesting possibility of science without capital limitations is the construction of nuclear fusion reactors. I learned about these in physics last year, and they have huge energy capabilites, greatly surpassing the usefulness of fission reactors. Unfortunately, investments into this research are hard to come by, since the potential use of such reactors would likely take place farther in the future. If capital limitations are removed, perhaps our knowledge of how to construct useful fusion reactors (the only ones we can create now are extremely unstable...they're called H-bombs!) can increase more quickly.

[redstar2000]

A full-size prototype of a fusion power plant has gotten the go-ahead in France...and as soon as it is completed, on-line and proved out, a commercial plant will be built in Japan.

By 2020 or sooner, fusion power will be real.

And it was quite a wait, wasn't it? :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Seeker]

I have this concept in my head of University towns being the engine for professional training and the advance of science, much like they are today. The main difference would be the method of acquiring resources, and the decision making process of what to research (decisions made by scientists rather than venture capitalists).

It is not too hard to imagine the local community providing food and shelter for resident researchers/professors, but how would one go about acquiring several hundred tons of metal to build a particle accelerator? How do you get craftsmen to create the delicate parts for a satellite?

I think the answer lies in how the larger economy works. How would a shipyard acquire raw materials? Through the same democratic process as a University I would assume.

One scenario would be for society at large to allocate a pool of resources to research. The community of Universities would then have an internal debate about how to allocate those resources. Global communication allows the research teams to place worldwide help-wanted adds to attract craftsmen with particular skills (such as glass blowing or metalworking).

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 12:34 PM
A full-size prototype of a fusion power plant has gotten the go-ahead in France...and as soon as it is completed, on-line and proved out, a commercial plant will be built in Japan.

By 2020 or sooner, fusion power will be real.

And it was quite a wait, wasn't it? :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
Hmm, I heard in class that investments in fusion research in the US were few in number. Thanks for some info there.

Actually, it was quite a wait, considering how long we've known the potential of fusion research!