communism vs. religion

[STABD]

Hey probly a really dum question, but is communism oposed to religion, if so why.

[STI]

It is because communism is based in science and rationality. Religion requires faith, the willful suspension of rationality.

Also, religion is a tool used by the ruling class to "keep the working class down". It's a silly distraction from class interests.

[STABD]

i was under the inpresion that comunism was about freedom from state and from are capitulist opresors, isnt this being controdicting

[KC]

i was under the inpresion that comunism was about freedom from state and from are capitulist opresors, isnt this being controdicting

How is it contradicting?

[STABD]

ur creating a society based on freedom but not alowing the people to belive in a cause unless u deem it apropiate

[KC]

ur creating a society based on freedom but not alowing the people to belive in a cause unless u deem it apropiate

We are doing no such thing! Communism is "opposed" to religion because religion is illogical. To be a communist means you question everything, using logic. Therefore, being a communist and being religious are contradictory to each other. In a communist society you would be allowed to have such beliefs, but you would probably be regarded by others as pretty strange.

[STABD]

ok thnx Lazer, i get that.

[redstar2000]

Welcome to the Religion sub-forum, STABD.

Here you will find many threads that discuss the contentious issue of religion and its relationship to communism.

You could begin with this thread (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=36144).

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Ele'ill]

It is because communism is based in science and rationality.

:lol:


Religion requires faith, the willful suspension of rationality.

Any type of belief does as well. Suspension of rationality for example. 'Believe in our movement proletariat we are for you' while at the same time the whole hope and basis of a successful revolution lies in the proletariat. It's almost a paradox but is because being almost a paradox is in fact a paradox in itself. ;) (hows that for fuzzy redstar)

[KC]

What's so funny, Mariel? Don't be so fuzzy.

[STI]

'Believe in our movement proletariat we are for you' while at the same time the whole hope and basis of a successful revolution lies in the proletariat.

I personally don't expect the working class to just up-and-trust everything we say. They'd be stupid to do that.

Oh, and it's more than "for you". Most of us are working class!


It's almost a paradox but is because being almost a paradox is in fact a paradox in itself

Not really. We try to convince the working class that they are fit to rule as a class and that X is the best way to organize society. If they agree, they'll believe us. If not, they won't. There's no "believing in" anything.

[Ele'ill]

I personally don't expect the working class to just up-and-trust everything we say. They'd be stupid to do that.

Oh, and it's more than "for you". Most of us are working class!

Yeah but i'd imagine one group would rise up and get it going and they'd look at the rest and say something like 'we are with YOU' etc..



Not really. We try to convince the working class that they are fit to rule as a class and that X is the best way to organize society. If they agree, they'll believe us. If not, they won't. There's no "believing in" anything.

Oh, and it's less a 'we' 'they' and 'us'.
There is a whole bunch of believing when you put your trust in such a wreched population. ;)

[STI]

Yeah but i'd imagine one group would rise up and get it going and they'd look at the rest and say something like 'we are with YOU' etc..

So, basically, some groups will be bigger than others. That doesn't somehow make them "not working class" or "not run based on libertarian organizational principles".


Oh, and it's less a 'we' 'they' and 'us'.
There is a whole bunch of believing when you put your trust in such a wreched population

It's those "wretched people" we're talking about overthrowing capitalism.

[Ele'ill]

So, basically, some groups will be bigger than others. That doesn't somehow make them "not working class" or "not run based on libertarian organizational principles".

I'm saying there will be one group that goes first.



It's those "wretched people" we're talking about overthrowing capitalism.

Do you disagree?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Mari3L
how's that for fuzzy, redstar?

Typical of your posts in general. The rest of what you said in this thread (whatever it was supposed to mean) seems to have no relationship to the topic at all.

Some folks just like being "obscure"...in fact, "Jesus" bragged about it.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:30 PM
It is because communism is based in science and rationality. Religion requires faith, the willful suspension of rationality.

Also, religion is a tool used by the ruling class to "keep the working class down". It's a silly distraction from class interests.
Science requires no faith? Well, you obviously believe that science and the 'holy' scientific method holds all the answers, and revelation, because it does not 'obey' the scientific method, holds no answers. Science requires faith just as religion does.

You say 'religion' is a tool to hold down the proletariat, but it isn't religion that is doing this. It is the Church, it is only organized religion. In communism, we should abolish the Church, we should abolish organized religions and give people the opportunity to decide various truths for themselves. In communism, we cannot oppress people simply because they believe in God. We can, however, maintain our stand against hierarchy by not allowing any organized Church to arise.

[KC]

Religion causes people to think illogically. If people cant think logically, they can't see the world for what it is and can't develop. Religion is an opiate of the people.

[anomaly]

I fail to see how a belief, without a hierarchal Church, does any harm. If you are suggesting that belief itself causes this terrible 'illogical' thinking, then surely every single person on earth is illogical, because we all believe something, we all have faith in something.

[KC]

I don't really think I've ever had "faith" in anything in my whole life, in the way that you use the word (as it has different definitions). Let's continue this discussion in the logic forum so we don't trash this.

[STI]

I'm saying there will be one group that goes first.

And that group should be made up of members of the working class, working in their own class interests. Sure, they'll try to convince other people of what they believe, but I think the example they set will be more potent (assuming they're effective). There won't be any appeals to "faith", and I really don't see where you got that idea.


Do you disagree?

With what? That the working class is wretched? I agree fully! With things the way they are, what more could you expect!?


Science requires no faith? Well, you obviously believe that science and the 'holy' scientific method holds all the answers, and revelation, because it does not 'obey' the scientific method, holds no answers. Science requires faith just as religion does.


The conclusions reached by 'science', if we're talking about it in the abstract here, are based on evidence, and conclusions can be changed or replaced in light of new evidence. Religion can't. Religion isn't based on any kind of evidence. In fact, religion is believing in spite of evidence.


You say 'religion' is a tool to hold down the proletariat, but it isn't religion that is doing this. It is the Church, it is only organized religion.

To paraphrase Bakunin, a boss in heaven means a boss on Earth.


I fail to see how a belief, without a hierarchal Church, does any harm.

Believers are more susseptable (fuck spelling!) than non-believers because believing requires the suspension of critical thought. People who get into the routine of willfully suspending critical thought are, of course, much more likely to be uncritically supportive of the most brutal leaders (where were the Catholics during the Holocast?)


I don't really think I've ever had "faith" in anything in my whole life

Lucky. I've seen and experienced what "faith" does to people, and it's no good.

[Ele'ill]

Typical of your posts in general. The rest of what you said in this thread (whatever it was supposed to mean) seems to have no relationship to the topic at all.

Some folks just like being "obscure"...in fact, "Jesus" bragged about it.

Well we all get our ideas from our own secret places and choose to share them in our own ways.