Knowledge--->Virtue--->Happiness

[Pawn Power]

With the accumulation of knowledge one gains virtue and through virtue one obtains happiness.


Agree? Disagree?

Discuss...

[OleMarxco]

Both agree and disagree with it, but I will definately discuss it :D
First of all, nothing ever's laid in stone. I don't deny that trough the accumlation of knowledge a INVIDUAL, such myself might repor first-hand that it gives me joy to have information - perhaps something "other's don't have", which is a part of the emotion of uniqueness we all secretly strives to. "I am unique, just like everyone else!" and all of that. But however, the gainin' of virtue and IF that virtue gives you happiness, is, however, rather unsure. It all depends. I can't just make that an universal truth, however, no matter how often it happens to ME. Because it's not always about ME as an universal example no matter how "regular" I think I am, whatever "regular" is. Some people obtain dishappiness...whether or not because they don't wanna know it, or, that it makes them feel "smart-ass" over other's, whether or not other's say so or act so or they just don't like to know more than other's. However, in "the information super-highway" (YUCK! I hate that word, yet I use it....) it's not too seldom that it's interestin' to know stuff. And discover stuff other have not. Or whatever. We thrive on trivial information, and act as "informant"'s who "sell" away things we know and act like beacons of knowledge because it's "cool". Other's have more useful knowledge. Everyone wants to be a "Tyler Durden"; Smart, capable and free in all the way's "others are not". Or wise as Gandalf the Grey, who contribute and change trough coming with great advices or tip's or funny quirks to solute problems or make useful stuff. "Tyler was always full of useful information". Atleast want others not to be.

So all in all, conclusingly, is that I don't doubt alot feel happiness from gathering tiny bits of information, holding them like a bank towards the world and reflect their identity in it, foolishly enough, but I don't think that's an universal definition, AT ALL. Just my own-invented-artifical "wise-ass crack", Yoda - There is no try ;)

[Hiero]

I think once you begin to learn about the reality you begin to no care about petty human things, so maybe you get happy.

[Decolonize The Left]

To Revolution is the Solution: "With the accumulation of knowledge one gains virtue and through virtue one obtains happiness."

Perhaps this might be one way to obtain happiness. But let's look at it closer, virtue: "Moral excellence and righteousness; goodness." I think that the accumulation of knowledge leads to wherever that person wants to go. For example, Condi Rice is a very knowledgable person, very smart, yet I do not consider her to be virtuous as defined above. Therefore with this example we can see that the accumulation of knowledge can take you many places, in fact it is what you dowith this accumulation of knowledge that makes you virtuous or not. As well as by whose standards you are measuring yourself.

To say that with knowledge one gains virtue is too simplistic and does not serve the purpose of obtaining happiness.

I believe that through compassion and wisdom, one can find happiness. The Dalai Lama teaches this, and I believe he knows what he is talking about.

To OleMarxo: I didn't understand most of what you wrote. Yet I do agree that most people want to be looked well-upon by others (such as Tyler), or admired (such as Gandalf). And I also agree, as I stated above, that Revolution's definition is one way to look at it.

To Hiero: In saying that learning about reality will lead to caring about the greater good, you are in effect saying that reality is the greater good, as in the good of the world. This might be true, but I think that most people don't see it that way at all, they are more concerned with what is happening in their lives, and that is hard to change. Instead, you must show them that what happens outside of their lives, affects their lives in major ways. You bring the problem to their level.

-- August

[jasontkennedy]

Well, this is pretty much directly from plato's discussion of scrates, but I will discuss it.
I think that sweeping statements can be dangerous, and so philosophy, for me, is more relative, although I would not call myself a post modernist. Knowledge>Virtue>Happiness, eh? Well, a simple yes or no does not apply. I think context comes into consideration. For example, knowledge or understanding of auto mechanics can lead to virtue (according ot socrates - something done well). The same can be true in the case of a marriage. However, the connection to happiness is not nearly as consistant as I think Socrates would have it be. Consider knowledge of marxism while living in america. The more well versed you become in marxist thinking, the more you become virtuous at espousing your views and possibily showing other the benefits, however that doesn't promise a universally happy result. In fact, for some the result is something other than happy. Supporting marxism in "the belly of the beast" can lead to frustration, an unfulfilled ambition to see capitalism overturned, etc, etc. Seeking out ideals does (in my opinion) make one more virtuous, but I disagree on the conclusion of personal happiness, and Socrates said "happiness is what is good for a man"

[Clarksist]

Virtue does not exist.

Knowledge will give you the ability to be free of worrying about virtue. Which can give you happiness. Unless you care about the well being of others, in which knowledge gives you anger and revolutionary spirit.

I.E. Knowledge -> Anger -> Action -> Communism.

:P

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 10:52 PM
I.E. Knowledge -> Anger -> Action -> Communism.

:P
You skipped a VERY important step! Maybe two... or more.

Knowledge -> Anger -> Critical thought -> Organization -> Action -> Socialism? -> Communism.

Your orignal model is more likely to result in this:

Knowledge -> Anger -> Action -> Counter-action -> Extermination -> Fascism.

[Decolonize The Left]

Well put 313, well put.

-- August

[Pawn Power]

Edit.
misunderstanding

[Decolonize The Left]

Revolution, I might have missed what you were addressing but the quote you chose is 313 responding to Clarxist's post, not yours. We are aware you were opening an idea for debate, and you got debate.
I already posted my thoughts on your model.

-- August

[Pawn Power]

Thanks AugustWest I did mis-read that.

Edit

[Clarksist]

Knowledge -> Anger -> Action -> Counter-action -> Extermination -> Fascism.


Heh... heh... those aren't MY intentions...

But seriously, you know what I meant. The thing is, virtue doesn't exist, I don't see how people think it does.

[Another]

I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up the matter of disenchantment.

It's difficult, to say with such a sweeping statement that knowledge will lead to undoubted happiness. As our understanding of the world grows so does our enchantment and awe with it diminish.

Class conciousness (knowledge) can bring a person to the lowest depths of depression and helplessness. The realization that they are a cog whose purpose is to mesh is a horrifying revelation.

The more we learn about the world, the more fault can be found in it.

Life would be simpler, and a great deal more enjoyable (from one point of view) if a person was completely left in the dark. Was unaware of the ailing environment, of economic strife and of human suffering.

It's an interesting thought to entertain is all.

That is all not to say I suggest we all just sit back and accept it. Sit in front of televisions and ignore the fact that we're far from free.

Nothing of the sort. Rather, we should acknowledge and be prepared for the trail-by- fire of potentially unpleasant realizations that stands between ignorance and knowledge.

So perhaps you're still very right, but maybe there needs to be another stage inserted somewhere in there as has already been suggested.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 12:41 AM
I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up the matter of disenchantment.

It's difficult, to say with such a sweeping statement that knowledge will lead to undoubted happiness. As our understanding of the world grows so does our enchantment and awe with it diminish.

Class conciousness (knowledge) can bring a person to the lowest depths of depression and helplessness. The realization that they are a cog whose purpose is to mesh is a horrifying revelation.

The more we learn about the world, the more fault can be found in it.

Life would be simpler, and a great deal more enjoyable (from one point of view) if a person was completely left in the dark. Was unaware of the ailing environment, of economic strife and of human suffering.

It's an interesting thought to entertain is all.

That is all not to say I suggest we all just sit back and accept it. Sit in front of televisions and ignore the fact that we're far from free.

Nothing of the sort. Rather, we should acknowledge and be prepared for the trail-by- fire of potentially unpleasant realizations that stands between ignorance and knowledge.

So perhaps you're still very right, but maybe there needs to be another stage inserted somewhere in there as has already been suggested.
A very good point. I think I had a debate about this err... a long time ago.

The counter point here is that ignorance is far more depressing; assuming you don't accept falsehoods as truth and have the slightest grasp on material reality; you know that you have no clue what to do, with knowledge you at least know what must be done, even if you can't do it now or ever.

[Decolonize The Left]

I believe the two phrases evoqued by both Another's and EM's posts are:

Ignorance is Bliss

and

Knowledge is Power

These phrases stand on opposite ends of the spectrum and both hold their merits and faults. Another did a fine job of explaning some of the merits to ignorance, and EM dipped into knowledge a bit.

I look forward to watching this develop.

-- August