Rape

[LSD]

Again, for those who obviously haven't been paying attention to social reality, rape is not exclusive to women. Men get raped as well, indeed quite possibly on a more frequent basis

"on a more frequent basis"!? :blink:

Women are six times more likely to be raped then men!

While almost 20% of women are victims of rape or attempted rape, only 3% of men are.

In 2003, nine out of every ten rape victims were female.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics.html


This would suggest that gender is an irrelevace.

What would, your made up statistics?

Sure, many men are raped in prisons, but there are only 2 million Americans in jail or so. There are 100 million American women. Not to mention that the rest of the world has a much smaller prison population.

The fact is that "penal" rapes do not even come close to "counterbalancing" the overwhelmingly female nature of rape victims.

90% of rape victims are female. This is not a gender neutral crime!

[Invader Zim]

I don't think your site was taking into account prison victims.


Taken from your own site: -

In 2002-2003, there were an average of 223,280 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.

Taken from a site on prison rape stats: -


In the same year of 2002: -

There were 2,033,331 people incarcerated in the United States.

Several academic studies in the '80s estimated that 7 to 15 percent of inmates were raped: a rate of 10 percent

http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/prisonrape.html

Now, I think that you do the maths here, we have a statistic of around 200,000 rape victims in the US prison system, which is dominated near completely by men 91 believe men account for 93% of prisoners.

You should also see what else that site said: -

In 2001, Human Rights Watch released a comprehensive report that estimated between 250,000 to 600,000 prisoners, overwhelmingly male, are raped each year.

Now that’s a lot more than the number of female rape victims, however I think we would be better to accept the lower end of that statistic, based on the other cited statistic, which provides a similar figure.

The fact is that "penal" rapes do not even come close to "counterbalancing" the overwhelmingly female nature of rape victims.

223,280 female victims - 200,000 victims within the penal system.

So again, the crime of rape is not exclusive to women, and any suggestion it is, is in fact bollocks, a myth spread by fools who have not done any adiquate research.

[Invader Zim]

hey Enigma.. those statistics that LSD quoted from the RAINN site are the lowball numbers... that's from the women who acutally REPORT it. There is a large segment of rape victims who do not report such incidents for numerous reasons...

I suspect that the same is true of men, indeed I suspect that its even more of a problem in prisons because of what happens to people if you grass on them.


Sexual Assualt is every thing from being brutally beaten, fighting back and being overcome by force, threatened with weapons or death....

This discussion has nothing to do with sexual assualt, but the act of rape.

if she says "NO" --- that is rape.

I can see we have a master of the obvious.

[coda]

Are you actually having the balls to say that rape is overwhelmingly a threat to men?
You got to be bullshitting?

How many men get raped and brutally beaten jogging in a park, or going to the store, or walking down a deserted street, or going to their car, or raped and killed in their bed by someone who stalks them and breaks into their house... or the very common date rape of being mauled and overpowered and raped by someone they know or an acquaintance? It rarely happens to men in those situations. Women ALWAYS have to be on-guard for that whenever they are out alone.

Of course it's nothing you have to contend with.. so you wouldn't know much about it at all.


< if she says "NO" --- that is rape.>
<I can see we have a master of the obvious.>

ON the contrary.. I bet many men would be surprised to know that they have in fact raped a women, going on that criteria alone. I don&#39;t think I have to spell out step by step how the scenario goes... It is so fucking common that it is taken for granted as a regular sexual encounter.

[LSD]

223,280 female victims - 200,000 victims within the penal system.

What you&#39;re missing is statistical concentration.

Prisoners are more likely to be raped than any other group, but that&#39;s because they are very likely to be raped multiple times.

The fact remains, however, than men, in general, are about 6 times less likely to be raped then women, in general.

If you are a prisoner, then rape is a gender neutral crime, if you are free, then it is not.


So again, the crime of rape is not exclusive to women, and any suggestion it is, is in fact bollocks, a myth spread by fools who have not done any adiquate research.

No, because we&#39;re not talking about prison rape, we&#39;re talking about rape in the outside world ...and there&#39;s a difference.

Prison rape is an institutional problem created by the dehumanizing and incarceratory nature of imprisonment. It is a seperate issue from regular rape, and has seperate solutions. They are, in short, two different issues.

In the "real" world, the world where 99% of us live, women are FAR more likely to be rape then me men, and, indeed, more than 90% of rape victimes are female.

Therefore, if MDP had advocated raping a prisoner he would have made a gender-neutral statement, but since he advocated raping a free woman, and free women are six times more likely then free men to be raped, his comment must be taken as a sexist one. Advocating the rape of a free man does not have the same import since free men have only a 3% chance of being raped, whereas for women its about 1 in 5.

Let&#39;s take a hypothetical model. Let&#39;s say that blacks are far more likely to go to prison than whites, which they are, and let&#39;s say that, therefore, black on white discrimination was therefore highter than white on black (which it isn&#39;t, but let&#39;s take the hypothetical). In the rest of the country, however, white on black discrimination was still much higher. Now, would it be fair to point to the high black on white discrimination in prison to argue that racism was a "race neutral" issue? Of course not. Because small, select, closed groups are statistical outliers when they artificially skew the median results.

It&#39;s the same with rape. Yes, prisoners are very likely to be raped. But, the fact remains that only 1% of Americans are in prison. Therefore, while prison rapes are indeed high, for the average man and the average woman, rape is still a female-victimized issue.

If a man goes to prison, he has a 1 in 5 chance of being raped.

If a woman is born, she has a 1 in 5 chance of being raped.

Gender neutral my ass&#33; :angry:

[Invader Zim]

Are you actually having the balls to say that rape is overwhelmingly a threat to men?

Now where did I say that? I didn&#39;t claim that rape is an overwhelming threat to any specific gender. Perhaps I was wrong earlier, you certainly seam to have failed to master a collection of very simple obvious statements. I can assure you that my post held no clandestine meaning or complexities requiring either subtlety or any particular literary skill to decipher.

Oh and I feel that if we are going down the road of sexism, etc, then the macho idea that a parallel between testicles the courage to make a statement is certainly unacceptable.


How many men get raped and brutally beaten jogging in a park, or going to the store, or walking down a deserted street, or going to their car, or raped and killed in their bed by someone who stalks them and breaks into their house... or the very common date rape of being mauled and overpowered and raped by someone they know or an acquaintance?

Now, if you had bothered to look at the question from any kind of logical point of view, you would understand that the vast majority of rape does not occur in such situations and to draw it up as an example in the manner you have done is not only spin, but down right dishonesty.

It rarely happens to men in those situations.

No, but it happens a hell of a lot in more in prisons, so frequently that the suggestion that rape is a gender specific crime is a downright piece of stupidity. I think that your dismissal of the facts shows an inherent sexism on your part, because you obviously feel that a man getting raped is less grotesque or unacceptable than a woman being raped.


Of course it&#39;s nothing you have to contend with.. so you wouldn&#39;t know much about it at all.

I see you have made logic redundant and embraced near hysteric lunacy. Of course because it is more unlikely that I will be raped, I am not allowed to hold an opinion and must be ignorant. if that is what passes for logical thought in your book, then I feel deeply sorry for you.

Just because a person is more at risk, does not mean that others do not understand the risk or have the ability to learn about the risk.


ON the contrary.. I bet many men would be surprised to know that they have in fact raped a women, going on that criteria alone. I don&#39;t think I have to spell out step by step how the scenario goes... It is so fucking common that it is taken for granted as a regular sexual encounter


Do you not spot the logical fallacy of that statement?

[coda]

<<Now where did I say that? I didn&#39;t claim that rape is an overwhelming threat to any specific gender.">>>

by your statistics, showing the prevalency of men getting raped in prison, you could conclude that it is an overwhelming threat to men also -- if men are planning to go to prison atleast. othewise, not much. But, rape is overwhelmingly always a threat to women all the time, in that they take premeditated precautions so as not to leave themselves open to getting raped within the interaction with the general world at large.

<<<"you would understand that the vast majority of rape does not occur in such situations and to draw it up as an example in the manner you have done is not only spin, but down right dishonesty.">>>

there is nothing dishonest there. women have been raped in all those situations and many more. Doesn&#39;t matter where the vast majority of them occur. That they occur at all is the problem. but, I would like to know what situations you think the "vast majority" of rapes occur.


<<<No, but it happens a hell of a lot in more in prisons, so frequently that the suggestion that rape is a gender specific crime is a downright piece of stupidity. I think that your dismissal of the facts shows an inherent sexism on your part, because you obviously feel that a man getting raped is less grotesque or unacceptable than a woman being raped.>>>


I don&#39;t think it&#39;s any more acceptable. True, men rape other men as well as women. I didn&#39;t dispute that. Men are predominately the rapists in society. You&#39;re the one that is downplaying the assault to women by making comparisons that are out of the range of norm. Your high statistics of men being raped are based on a specific confined demographic--- men in prison. And that is basically the failure of the prison system and if measures were implemented toward a more controlled prison environment.. rapes in prison would virtually dissappear. And, take into default, there aren&#39;t co-ed prisons for women to get raped in.

On the other hand, rapes against women cuts across all socio-economic, age, race factors, that it can&#39;t be statistically compared to a segregated population of people. t there is no way to protect women in society by being raped, unless she takes the measures to try to protect herself, Herself.


<<Of course because it is more unlikely that I will be raped, I am not allowed to hold an opinion and must be ignorant. if that is what passes for logical thought in your book, then I feel deeply sorry for you. >>>

right, you are ignorant of the very psychological threat of rape that pervades a women&#39;s life.
I&#39;ve yet to have a man seriously say to me " Can you walk me to my car, I&#39;m afraid I might get raped." Nor do I see them stocking up on cans of mace, taking rape self-defense classes or following all the pre-requisites about going out alone at night...(walk in pairs or groups, stay in well-lit areas, avoiding dark deserted streets) and all the other hassles women have to consider and choose just in order to protect themselves from the likely possibilty of getting raped.

The issue in a nutshell is that women are at a distinct disadvantage and are vulnerable to being attacked. Men have a far better chance of successfully fighting off any such rape attempts made on their lives.

[*Hippie*]

I&#39;m pretty sure men have about an equal chance of being date raped or being co-erced into sex through threats, alcohol, intimidation, etc.
Men report these incidents far less, but every guy I know has been co-erced into sex they did not want at least once. Women often think men should always give in and don&#39;t have the option to say "no". Our culture influences us to believe men can not be raped.

[coda]

Men may have an equal CHANCE of being raped, but they don&#39;t have an equal "actual occurance" of rape compared to that of women. they also don&#39;t live their lives in accordance to specifications to prevent one from happening. and that&#39;s the difference.

[Dante]

I&#39;m pretty sure men have about an equal chance of being date raped or being co-erced into sex through threats, alcohol, intimidation, etc.

Sorry again not true. Rape is not about sex it is about power. It is a tool of violence that some men use against women as part of the overall oppression of women in society. Men can use their increasd physical strength to fight women off mroe easily, and also there is a physiological barrier to women raping men, that if a man is not sexually aroused they do not get an erection. Even if a man did start having sex and then decided against it, it is nowhere near the same as a woman being penetrated against her will. Rape for women has long lasting physical, emotional and psychological damage - and that is just in the west.

Globally womens positions are even more oppressed, if a woman is raped in certain parts of India or Africa then she can either be cast out of her community, or worse, killed by her own family. These honour crimes are an example of how rape affects women much worse then it does men. Also 1 in 3 women will be sexually assualted in their life time. I would disagree with Indigos one posting where he seems to imply that the majority of rapes against women occur in a&#39;dark alley&#39;. The fact is that the majority of sexual assualts against women are carried out by men they already know, boyfriends, husbands, exes, fathers, uncles, family friends and so on. The amount of abuse that goes on in certain ethnic communities as well is incredibly high, and usually unreported.


Prison rape is an institutional problem created by the dehumanizing and incarceratory nature of imprisonment. It is a seperate issue from regular rape, and has seperate solutions. They are, in short, two different issues.


I agree with that statement, it is not useful to use Priosn rape as the standard for all men, thus generalising it across the whole population. This creates a statistical anomaly that does not help our discussion&#33; However Prison rape is a serious issues that needs to be addressed.

[coda]

<< I would disagree with Indigos one posting where he seems to imply that the majority of rapes against women occur in a&#39;dark alley&#39;.>>

No, the vast majority do not happen in dark alleys. That&#39;s the poster Enigma smugly trying to put words in my mouth&#33; But a fair share --- thousands --- do happen in dark alleys, in parked cars, in parking lots, public parks and other public places by unknown assailants. My point was that the vast majority of men do not have to worry about that happening in those places.

[Invader Zim]

by your statistics, showing the prevalency of men getting raped in prison, you could conclude that it is an overwhelming threat to men also

Wrong, because nowehere have I suggested that rape is an overwhelming threat to anybody. The chanses of you being raped are at best low (inadvertantly), raped in the violent fashon you have described; miniscule.

If you feal that there is an overwhelming risk of your being raped, then I suggest you invest in locks, a delivery service and find a job where you can work from home. That way you will never have to leave your home again.

Doesn&#39;t matter where the vast majority of them occur.

Unless its men in a prison, in which case it seams to matter a great deal to you and LSD, who seem to feal that the circumstance makes the less significant. But I suspect that you are dismissing these rape victims because they contradict your assertation that the crime of rape is not gender neutral.

True, men rape other men as well as women.

Then you accept that rapists have victims of both sexes? Thus you must, by the same token, accept that rape is not gender specific to either gender?

Your high statistics of men being raped are based on a specific confined demographic--- men in prison.

So? The term rape includes these acts, just as much as they do any other instance when it occurs. The fact that it seams that a large percentage, nearly half of all rape victims (based on the statistics cited earlier), happen to be part of that demograph would suggest that its relevance is paramount to this discussion.

Also 1 in 3 women will be sexually assualted in their life time

Now, that I do not doubt, but its relevance to this discussion is nil, unless of course you refer to the term sexual assault acquaintance rape, date rape, statutory rape, etc as one broad all encompassing definition, in which case it has great relevance. If that is the case then I believe that your statistic is erronious, as I doubt that a billion women are raped.

PS - misogyny inside&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;1&#33;111&#33;

[coda]

It&#39;s hard to get through any of your posts because they are shit. you&#39;re an idiot, Enigma, and you sound very misogynist to me. you proved it in here in the middle of your post..

<<The chanses of you being raped are at best low (inadvertantly), raped in the violent fashon you have described; miniscule.>>

Wrong. the acquaintance or date rape or aggressive attempt of carrying one out is more common than you&#39;d think, and I can guess that you, as a male... and I&#39;ll be presumptuous to assume that you have very little experience dating heterosexual males, so don&#39;t realize how typically they occur. I already stated in the other thread that it&#39;s taken for granted as a regular sexual encounter among females that she will experience probably at least once over her lifetime given she has an active social life, and generally then not, she will reluctantly comply out of coersion. Not consenting because she wants to, however, but because she is being aggressively forced nonetheless. .

<,If you feal that there is an overwhelming risk of your being raped, then I suggest you invest in locks, a delivery service and find a job where you can work from home. That way you will never have to leave your home again.>>

heh&#33; thanks for the advice, Enigma&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; I&#39;ve made sure I can defend myself against any rape or assualts and feel sorry for the bastard who attempts it, --- still doesn&#39;t mean I or anyone else who can defend themselves won&#39;t encounter such attempts.

But, this is where your extre,e idiocy shows through. So, you think rapists should be given first priority to freely mingle in the world and the women should lock themselves away because rapists are out there??? Women shouldn&#39;t have to feel that the only way they won&#39;t be sexually assaulted or raped is that they can&#39;t leave their house and live normally in the world. it is the rapists who should be locked up... don&#39;t you think???

<<Unless its men in a prison, in which case it seams to matter a great deal to you and LSD, who seem to feal that the circumstance makes the less significant. But I suspect that you are dismissing these rape victims because they contradict your assertation that the crime of rape is not gender neutral. So? The term rape includes these acts, just as much as they do any other instance when it occurs. The fact that it seams that a large percentage, nearly half of all rape victims (based on the statistics cited earlier), happen to be part of that demograph would suggest that its relevance is paramount to this discussion. >>>

Right. Men get raped. But since the high percentages compared to that of woman occur exclusively to prison it doesn&#39;t represent any kind of statistical normality as it&#39;s within a segregated confined demographic. To draw an analogy.. it would be like comparing the polygamy practices of the Mormons in Utah to the rest of the world. Just because there is a high rate of polygamy in the Mormon community it does not represent polygamy among the rest of Utah or even the statistics of polygamy to the rest of the world. if men were being raped only in the segregated Mormon communities ---it tells nothing statistically because it&#39;s outside the norm and not inclusive of a broad-spectrum of people under typical circumstances. You can&#39;t understand that? That&#39;s why prison rapes are calculated apart from societal rapes.

[red_orchestra]

The majority of women are raped by a person they know...not by a stranger. Thats also a fact&#33;

[coda]

And Enigma, regarding your second post in this thread.. giving a hachet job to my comment and then trying to quote me on it:

"Sexual Assualt is every thing from being brutally beaten, fighting back and being overcome by force, threatened with weapons or death....
"

Pretty convenient of you to take the word "rape" off the beginning of my sentence, and then say.. "this discussion isn&#39;t about sexual assault, it&#39;s about rape" and then get rid of the following whole acquaintance/date rape comments.

If you&#39;re going to cite my comments, I&#39;d appreciate if you left them intact and in context as you have corrupted them so to bolster up your weak argument.


"Rape and Sexual Assualt is every thing from being brutally beaten, fighting back and being overcome by force, threatened with weapons or death.... to the "friendly casual" situation of insistently and persistently saying "NO" while your pants are being taken off, your legs pryed open, resulting in unconsenting penetration without a physical struggle taking place whatsoever. Many women don&#39;t even realize they&#39;ve been raped because it wasn&#39;t the "rape" that is presented to them by tv and media. But if she&#39;s saying "NO" and it&#39;s not being adhered to... than she is having sex without consent--- struggle or no struggle.... doesn&#39;t even matter if two seconds before penetration, you were going at it hot and heavy.. if she says "NO" --- that is rape."

[Invader Zim]

It&#39;s hard to get through any of your posts because they are shit.

the reason you find it hard to get through my posts, is nothing to do with their quality, but the fact that you are wrong, and that’s a hard fact to face up too.

you&#39;re an idiot, Enigma

Haha, from you I take that as a compliment, as you have been wrong about everything else so far.

and you sound very misogynist to me.

Oh drat&#33; I guess I&#39;ve been found out&#33; What is it? Three years I have managed to keep it a secret, and then I am uncovered by a "newbie" with apparently no ability to comprehend even the most simple of statements. Do your self a favour Indigo, and put the spade down.

you proved it in here in the middle of your post..


Do you even know what a misogynist is? Somehow I doubt it...

the acquaintance or date rape or aggressive attempt of carrying one out is more common than you&#39;d think

What was it we saw earlier about 223,280 per year (including all forms of rape, save prison rape). Out of 150,000,000 females in America? Even when you spread it out over a life time, (in which case you have to take into account births and deaths) you are still looking at a pretty low probability. Especially when you consider that well over a million people die on the roads every year.

But I though that you were going to show my shocking misogyny, I am quite disappointed. I was looking forward to quoting you in my sig line, which I will do anyway... but I was hoping for something a little more definative.

I&#39;ve made sure I can defend myself against any rape or assualts and feel sorry for the bastard who attempts it.

Well bully for you.

So, you think rapists should be given first priority to freely mingle in the world and the women should lock themselves away because rapists are out there?

Your inability to understand sarcasm is highlighted here, not my supposed lack of intellectual ability. But then again, as you seam to be incapable of deciphering statements lacking any depth, i am unsuppressed you totally failed to understand that element of my post.


Right. Men get raped.

Then you accept that rape, is a crime committed against both sexes, thus rape is not exclusively committed against women, thus joking about rape does not necessarily make one a sexist... just an idiot.

and then get rid of the following whole acquaintance/date rape comments.

I removed them, because they were irrelevant to my point, as the comments on date rape, etc unlike your points on sexual assault were completely irrelevant. However, perhaps next time, you would prefer me to add the following: - […]?


If you&#39;re going to cite my comments, I&#39;d appreciate if you left them intact and in context as you have corrupted them so to bolster up your weak argument.

Indigo, pointing out that your comments on sexual assault had nothing to do with my argument, and removing them did not detract from your argument (a word which is rapidly becoming obsolete when describing your severely inadequate thesis on the subject). Sorry, but you are going to have to try harder than that.

[Pawn Power]

by a "newbie" with apparently no ability to comprehend even the most simple of statements. Do your self a favour Indigo, and put the spade down.

Ooo, a tough guy, I don&#39;t think the lenght someone has been on a message board is significant in the truth or rationality of their argument.
Anywho I think it was Malte who said that Indigo, under a different username, was the first user to make a post on this board, ever. I think in comparision that would make you the &#39;newbie&#39;.


From an anthropolgical and statistical stand point rape is leaning much farther to gender specific. It is common in the study of anthropology to disdain, however not compeltey ignore, atypical isolated demoraphics (prisons). With the data from prisons detracted from the world standard, rape becomes virtually gender specific towards women.

[Invader Zim]

Ooo, a tough guy

While I realise its difficult, please try and refrain from being so stupid.

I don&#39;t think the lenght someone has been on a message board is significant in the truth or rationality of their argument.

I quite agree, but the point is that I have been posting here for years, and no one has ever accused me of being a &#39;hater of women&#39;. But now, a person who has only been here a matter of months (or so we can tell from her profile) thinks I am. What about all those people who have been here years, are they just blind? Now do you get it?

I think in comparision that would make you the &#39;newbie&#39;.

Perhaps, but how come she is the only one to make such a reflection on my character, even though I have been called lots of other things in the past (so its not like she couldn&#39;t have brought it up then), which everyone else has somehow missed? If she has been here so long (which means that its someone like nickademus, paris or someone like that) then after 3 years they should have worked out what an aubsurd accusation that really is, and is indeed even more arrogant and even more unacceptable, the old ones should know better.

[OleMarxco]

The fact that more men than women get raped in prison&#39;s is because more men do more crimes than women and thus, end&#39;s in prison.

But outside of prison, I have no doubt in my heart that women are more endagered by men, although even though we judge from what has been to predict what we will happen, that women is more likely than men to be raped, is technically bullshit even if I agree with it, because who can fore-see; What if tomorrow all men would be? There are men who are weak and easy-prey&#39;s ;)

[Invader Zim]

The point is not who is more likely to be raped, in any demograph you care to choose. the point is that men do get raped, completely irregardless of situation, which is evidence that men in many cases are just as much victims of rapists as women. Thus making jokes about rape is not necessarily a sexist comment.

[coda]

Thank you, RIS. Yes, I&#39;ve been on this board since day one and made the first post on on this particular board. Again, Enigma doesn&#39;t know what he talking about.

Enigma, you seem to be the one with the problem following the logical sequence of my comments and attributing comments to me that I&#39;ve never made. I never said MDP was sexist. But, I am saying that you are sexist. I came in on this when you were trying to dispute LSD&#39;s statistics from the RAINN site, --- I said those statistics were in fact the lowball because many rapes against women go unreported and it&#39;s a much higher number.

And I very well see your lame attempt to be sarcastic and use hyperbole, ---doesn&#39;t excuse or extenuate your reactionary and shallow pleasure in mocking and belittling the threats and violence that are perpetuated against women in society and trying to justify it by pretty much saying "so what, Men are raped just as much in prison." furthermore your misogynist comment that women who learn to defend themselves from attacks are "bullys"; as if a women fighting off a male attacker is an equal fight-- just reinforces my very first comment on the issue that it is a prevalent partriarchic attitude among men who don&#39;t understand the intended violence, that woman are just being catty and petty in regards to rape and should just lay back and enjoy it -- then they wouldn&#39;t be "raped", huh?

[coda]

<<<I think in comparision that would make you the &#39;newbie&#39;.
Perhaps, but how come she is the only one to make such a reflection on my character, even though I have been called lots of other things in the past (so its not like she couldn&#39;t have brought it up then), which everyone else has somehow missed? If she has been here so long (which means that its someone like nickademus, paris or someone like that) then after 3 years they should have worked out what an aubsurd accusation that really is, and is indeed even more arrogant and even more unacceptable, the old ones should know better.>>>

Yes, Paris... as well as Valkyrie, i formerly posted as.

Well, that&#39;s because I will only go out of my way to call you out on things that are specifically directed against my comments, like your pro-British imperialist nonsense. Otherwise, I disregard your posts.. because they are all shit. But I might add. I am pretty unbiased and when you&#39;ve been right and wrongly accussed, I have said so -- like those 15-20 posts I wrote in the cc in your defense when you were getting booted. I don&#39;t hold grudges.. so I&#39;d appreciate if you take my comments out of your signature.

[Vallegrande]

The number of females is always the highest during war, imprisonment, and other corruption (ie Maquiladoras). Think of Iraq now, all of the men are being targeted in areas where the soldiers assault, such a fallujah. The women have no more men in their family so they are vulnerable to any intruder. And there are no documents to this because it is war time, and the media will not present it. However I did see on Oprah that there was an Iraqi woman interviewed about what is going on over there. The documentary was edited so much that Oprah told the audience how difficult it was to get that interview on the air. So there are a multitude of undocumented cases that we have yet to hear about.

[LSD]

The point is not who is more likely to be raped, in any demograph you care to choose.

It is when one of those demographics includes 99% of the population and the other only 1.

And since every single person in this discussion, along with the original poster, and the target of the original post, is not in prison, for the purposes of this converstation, we can ignore statistical outliers such as prison.


which is evidence that men in many cases are just as much victims of rapists as women.

Not in 99% of the country and not in 99.9% of the world.

Statistics aren&#39;t the "Bible", they need to be analyzed. In this situation, we need to realize that when there is a very high concentration of rape in one specific and relatively small population, it skews the general numbers.

This is why prison rapes and non-prison rapes are counted seperately, because for the vast majority of the population, prison rape will never be an issue.

Again, to have a 20% chance of being raped, a man must be convicted of a crime. To have a 20% chance of being raped, a woman must be born. Clearly there is a strong gender component of rape&#33;


Thus making jokes about rape is not necessarily a sexist comment.

Outside of prison, it is.

Are you honestly denying that environmental context matters? Racism and sexism are all contextual.

Threatening to "lynch" a black man is only racist because of historical context. Absent that context, it&#39;s just another threat of violence.

And in the context of the world in which 99.5% of us live, rape is very much a sexist issue.

99% of men do not need to worry about rape. It is simply not a concern. For women, the chance of being raped is six times higher then for 99% of men. Claiming, therefore, that advocating the rape of a woman is not more threatening and abusive than advocating the rape of a man is ludicrous.

A man can "brush it off", he knows it&#39;s probably not going to happen to him. A woman, however, knows that she has a 1 in 5 chance of being raped, so it "hits" a lot harder. So hard that for a man to understand that level of fear, he has to go to prison.

It says something that a man needs to experience jail before he understands what a woman has to go through every day of her life.

[Invader Zim]

attributing comments to me that I&#39;ve never made.

Where?

I never said MDP was sexist.

I don&#39;t doubt it, but the conversation on rape stemmed from the suggestion that joking about rape was sexist. I stated this was not the case, because men are raped as frequently as women, cited statistics to prove the case. You and others took issue with what I posted, not the other way round.

But, I am saying that you are sexist.

Wrong you didn&#39;t just call me a sexist, you said that I hate women. But, no matter because both of are vicious lies.

I said those statistics were in fact the lowball because many rapes against women go unreported and it&#39;s a much higher number.

Indeed you did: -


hey Enigma.. those statistics that LSD quoted from the RAINN site are the lowball numbers... that&#39;s from the women who acutally REPORT it. There is a large segment of rape victims who do not report such incidents for numerous reasons...

Which I did not deny, at any time. What I said was that I don&#39;t think that rape is an overwhelming threat to anybody, a responce to your paranoia.

And I very well see your lame attempt to be sarcastic

Don&#39;t lie to me, if that is the case then your suggestion that I am a misogynist falls through, and you would never have been daft enough to have made it in the first place.

doesn&#39;t excuse or extenuate your reactionary and shallow pleasure in mocking and belittling the threats and violence that are perpetuated against women in society

You quote me doing that, I never said that rape was a good thing. All I said was that it statistically occurs to men as much as it does to women, when you include the number of men raped in prison. If you think that makes me a sexist, then you are a fucking idiot, and not worth talking too.

furthermore your misogynist comment that women who learn to defend themselves from attacks are "bullys";

What?&#33;? When someone says "Well bully for you." It means &#39;good for you&#39;.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bully

Which, i think you will find is why in the context you believed I said it, does not make grammatical sense. When placed in context, note it means the exact opposite to what you concluded.

[Invader Zim]

It is when one of those demographics includes 99% of the population and the other only 1.

No, its not. MDP was clearly not trying to be sexist. When making a reference to a subject like this, i for one don&#39;t think to myself "Oh because 50% of the cases occur in an isolated location, I must ignore it because its is &#39;statistical outlier&#39;."

If someone were to claim that HIV/AIDs was a gay man and junkies problem (which many people actually do), you would deny it based on the fact that millions of African&#39;s suffer from it and that there are numerous other exceptions. But you could claim that the African populous is a &#39;statistical outlier&#39;, then the statement leans (only leans, like the rape case) towards the truth.

You cannot simply ignore 200,000 cases P.A. because its suits you politically to ignore it.

[coda]

Look Enigma. That poll was put up there because he was way out of line to the theme of this board, not because it was "sexist".


No, I didn&#39;t call you a sexist then.. but I&#39;m calling you one now.


Your particular brand of sarcasm was misogynist in nature. ---against women,--- by belittling the very poignant threat they feel that it could very well happen to them as much as anybody else, since there is no particular characteristic they must or must not have to ensure that it won&#39;t happen. If most of the rapes against women happened in prison, the threat would be relatively very low. But, If you live in a large city, the chances will go up.. it&#39;s not paranoia. women don&#39;t think of it all the time. But it crosses their mind enough to know that if they were to be attacked, unless they can seriously put up a fight.. they will be raped, if that is the intention of an attacker. So she kind of precariously walks along at the mercy of chance and luck.

[Invader Zim]

so I&#39;d appreciate if you take my comments out of your signature.

Why? You haven&#39;t taken them back, you haven&#39;t apologised to me for making such a horrible accusation.

If you are ashamed of your comments then fair enough, but as you seam to back your comments completely...

But because you asked, I have removed it.

[Invader Zim]

That poll was put up there because he was way out of line to the theme of this board, not because it was "sexist".

You are quite right and i agree 100%, and i voted accordingly. What I took issue with was another persons comment stating that his &#39;joke&#39; showed he was a sexist.


but I&#39;m calling you one now.

Then I challenge you to prove it, something you are utterly incapable of, because it is patently untrue.

Your particular brand of sarcasm was misogynist in nature.

Was it hell, it was not against women, but against you for being overly paranoid.

by belittling the very poignant threat

Poignant yes, likely no. The chanse of being violently raped in such a manner is as I said; minsicule. As you have already stated the majority of the time rape is in a circumstance that many men do not even realise is rape. Not the sick pervert in the bush&#39;s scenario.

it&#39;s not paranoia.

I think it is when out of the 223,280 victims only around 30% of them were raped in such a manner. If there is a 10% chanse of being raped, that drops to being 3% in the manner we were discussing. That is hardly likely, and if you were to spend all your time worried in such a manner, then that is irrational. Do you overly fear crossing the road, do you feal that you have an overwhelming chanse of being run over? No, but the roads claim far more victims than rapists. I accept that there is a chanse of it happening, and that would make caution advisable, there is a difference between that and fearing that there is an overwhelming chanse of being violently raped by a stranger, the latter that is paranoia.

So she kind of precariously walks along at the mercy of chance and luck.

Yeah, but you do every time you cross the road or even step outside. There has to be balance between not understanding at all and being irrational, and I think that every single girl I know does not go round thinking that there is an &#39;overwhelming&#39; chanse that they will be raped.

[LSD]

When making a reference to a subject like this, i for one don&#39;t think to myself "Oh because 50% of the cases occur in an isolated location, I must ignore it because its is &#39;statistical outlier&#39;."

You may not, but that doesn&#39;t diminish the truth of that statement.


If someone were to claim that HIV/AIDs was a gay man and junkies problem (which many people actually do), you would deny it based on the fact that millions of African&#39;s suffer from it and that there are numerous other exceptions. But you could claim that the African populous is a &#39;statistical outlier&#39;

No you couldn&#39;t. Because heterosexual contraction of AIDS is not restricted to small, isolated populations with no contact with the rest of the world.

If 99% of the world lived in a society in which homosexuals were the sole contractors of AIDS, then it would be valid to statistically ignore the remaining one percent. But, of course, that is not the case.


You cannot simply ignore 200,000 cases P.A. because its suits you politically to ignore it.

Maybe not, but I can question its relevence to this discussion.

The question was whether or not advocacy of rape is a sexist comment here, on this board, in the "free" world.

In the world in which 99% of us live, women are six times more likely to be raped then men. The woman of whom MdP made the threat lives in a world in which she has a 1 in 5 chance of being raped, whereas men have a 1 in 30.

In the society in which we live, rape is predominantly a female-victim affair, much like lynching was a black-victim affair in the 1890s. If, at that time, you had pointed to an isolated community in Iowa where whites were being lynched by blacks, it would in no way diminish the fact that for the overwhelming proportion of both blacks and whites, blacks were far more liklely to be the victims of racially motivated crimes than whites.

It&#39;s the same here. We have to look at MdP&#39;s comments in the context of the society in which we live, and in that context, they were sexist.

[Invader Zim]

You may not, but that doesn&#39;t diminish the truth of that statement.

Yes, but we are talking about a person making a &#39;joke&#39; about rape, not someone giving the subject deep thought and then coming to a serious conclusion.

Because heterosexual contraction of AIDS is not restricted to small, isolated populations with no contact with the rest of the world.

Actually, I think you will find that if you were to take America as an example (as we have done in the case of the rape discussion), then it certainly is restricted. Not in the same manner as in a prision. However on the whole sufferers are mostly in two specific identifiable groups, homosexuals and drug users. Which is why many (especially conservatives) make the claims they do. However, when most of us think of AID&#39;s you immidiatly consider all aspects of the subject, including Africa.

http://www.gmhc.org/health/statistics.html


If 99% of the world lived in a society in which homosexuals were the sole contractors of AIDS, then it would be valid to statistically ignore the remaining one percent. But, of course, that is not the case.

Alright, I take your point. But, if you were to say that AIDs was an African problem, then that would equally be false, for not taking into account all the problems of AID&#39;s in the rest of the world.


Maybe not, but I can question its relevence to this discussion.

In he context of the discussion its relevance, as i have already stated, makes it unable to simply be dismissed out of hand.

[coda]

ok. it would be fair enough to say that you don&#39;t hate women or feel they are inferior or a sub-class in any way. I do think, however, that you don&#39;t have a complete understanding or can relate to the issues and concerns confronting women living in this sort of society. But, I guess that does not make one categorically misogynist or sexist..

so, that&#39;s all the apology your getting from me&#33;


Anyway, I am out of this thread. so, See you around, Enigma. I&#39;m sure I&#39;ll run into you in another thread and we will thus resume calling each other names and being inappropriately tactless. it&#39;s been a pleasure.

thank you for removing the quote.

[Invader Zim]

so, that&#39;s all the apology your getting from me&#33;

Alright. On the same note, I shouldn&#39;t have been sarcy to you.

I&#39;m sure I&#39;ll run into you in another thread and we will thus resume calling each other names and being inappropriately tactless.

I doubt it, I have little desire to converse with you in a similar unpleasant manner again.

[encephalon]

I think people are missing Enigma&#39;s point here.

Overall, I think women are more likely to be raped outside of prison. Why? Because rape is indeed about power (as is lying). The act of rape is an assertion of one person&#39;s power to subjugate a "weaker" person, typically a person of a subordinate class. In contemporary society, women are in fact in an oppressed class of their own, and in western society (as well as others) have been so throughout history.

Children also make up a subordinate class, and child molestation is rape. It is an assertion of power over a less empowered group.

As has been stated, most prisoners are male. So the fact that more men get raped in prison is really an arbitrary point. The key is the fact that rape happens in prison, regardless of whether it is male or female; it is an assertion of power over another. The difference is that the "subjugated class" isn&#39;t quite available in prison, for the most part, and a whole new set of standards form around the lack of it (while retaining the urge of these individuals to assert their power over others).

Rape isn&#39;t inherently gender specific; it is, however, gener specific on our own social context. When women don&#39;t make up a subjugated class in global society, I suspect that rape will more frequently happen to men; and, unfortunately, children.

In any case, this flurry of flaming one another really isn&#39;t necessary.

[Invader Zim]

Succinctly put, encephalon. However, I must admit that I had not considered the matter quite in that light.

[LSD]

Yes, but we are talking about a person making a &#39;joke&#39; about rape, not someone giving the subject deep thought and then coming to a serious conclusion.

Absolutely, but by the same token, when he made the joke, it is unlikely that he was thinking about prison rape.

As you&#39;ve already pointed out, when most people think about rape, they think about it in their own social context, namely outside of prison. And in that context, whether or not MdP meant it to be sexist, a joke regarding raping a woman is worse than a joke about raping a man.


However on the whole sufferers are mostly in two specific identifiable groups, homosexuals and drug users. Which is why many (especially conservatives) make the claims they do. However, when most of us think of AID&#39;s you immidiatly consider all aspects of the subject, including Africa.

True enough, but let&#39;s look a little deeper into this issue.

In the context of America, gays are more likely to contracts AIDS, and this reflects in the culture. Wishing AIDS (even "jokingly") on a homosexual is considered worse than wishing it on a heterosexual person. Why? Because of the social and hisotrical context.

Yes, of course, AIDS is a bigger issue than homosexuals and drug users, but in terms of what "jokes" are appropriate and which are not, local societal issues take priority.

It&#39;s the same with rape. In a society in which women are not more likely to be raped (like an all-male one, e.g., prison), rape isn&#39;t a gender issue, but in a society in which they are (by a very large percentage), it can&#39;t help but be a gender issue.


Rape isn&#39;t inherently gender specific; it is, however, gener specific on our own social context.

Exactly, which is why, in this society, making jokes about raping women is a sexist act, whereas making jokes about raping men is not.

"Joking" about committing oppressive acts upon oppressed minorities is always worse than "joking" about committing those same acts upon the franchised.