Americans are killing their Iraqi allies

[resisting arrest with violence]

AmeriKKKans are killing their own Iraqi allies

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/ir...-home-headlines (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-civilians25jul25,0,815578.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

Along with 100,000 others

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Oct28.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

[Anarchist Freedom]

For future reference. To not make you sound like an idiot. Please spell Amerikkka with the proper spelling of America. Thank you move along.

[Organic Revolution]

well thes not supRRRising. at least KKKanada isnt.

[Stellix]

The US military is made up of a bunch of murderous psycopaths?

That is news to me. :rolleyes:

[MoscowFarewell]

Stellix: Please no military bashing. Some of them wanted out, but can't. Some really didn't want to do any of it.

[Stellix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 06:58 PM
Stellix: Please no military bashing. Some of them wanted out, but can't. Some really didn't want to do any of it.
Yes, some do dessert and speak out against the war and I have respect for them.

However, many others are racists that fully support the rape and plunder of Iraq. In my opinon they are just as guilty as Bush, Rumsfeld and the other filth for following orders.

[mo7amEd]

wow, are they on washingtonpost saying that it could be 100,000 civilians dead in Iraq?

[mo7amEd]

Originally posted by Stellix+Jul 25 2005, 07:08 PM--> (Stellix @ Jul 25 2005, 07:08 PM)
[email protected] 25 2005, 06:58 PM
Stellix: Please no military bashing. Some of them wanted out, but can't. Some really didn't want to do any of it.
Yes, some do dessert and speak out against the war and I have respect for them.

However, many others are racists that fully support the rape and plunder of Iraq. In my opinon they are just as guilty as Bush, Rumsfeld and the other filth for following orders. [/b]
agreed!

[viva le revolution]

Why do we hate the Wehrmacht so much. they were just following orders as well. the reason, when you unquestioningly follow orders that lead to atrocities, no matter what your intentions are, you are just as guilty.

[Free Palestine]

You've got to be a criminal in the first place to do what American soldiers have been doing. I'll support them when they turn the guns on their officers.

[mo7amEd]

there are some good point made here about the soldiers. there isn't something called "following orders".

[Xvall]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 06:58 PM
Please no military bashing.
ROTFL.

[Seeker]

I support the troops that shoot their officers.

Or desert.

Or join the resistance.

And so on . . .

It does not matter if the guy pulling the trigger doesn't want to. If the trigger is pulled that is all that matters. If some poor sob realizes he's made a terrible mistake, he should take personal responsibility. Even Hitler had that small amount of decency (many Japanese did as well).

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 01:58 PM
Stellix: Please no military bashing. Some of them wanted out, but can't. Some really didn't want to do any of it.
Sorry, but bash I must.

When you commit war crimes and crimes against humanity in the course of a criminal imperialist aggression, your "pangs of conscience" go unnoticed by your victims.

They just suffer the effects of what you do.

If you are really unlucky, you may have to answer for what you've done.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

PS: Thread title edited to correct spelling.

[LSD]

PS: Thread title edited to correct spelling.

:lol:

I was just about to do that! :P

[bolshevik butcher]

Are normal americans awear of teh number of civillian deaths in iraq?

[MiniOswald]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 26 2005, 11:14 AM
Are normal americans awear of teh number of civillian deaths in iraq?
Doubtful, only military deaths are added up, civi deaths will be noted at the time, such as 'car bomb kills 50' but they dont add them up.

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Jul 26 2005, 04:48 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Jul 26 2005, 04:48 AM)
[email protected] 25 2005, 01:58 PM
Stellix: Please no military bashing. Some of them wanted out, but can't. Some really didn't want to do any of it.
Sorry, but bash I must.

When you commit war crimes and crimes against humanity in the course of a criminal imperialist aggression, your "pangs of conscience" go unnoticed by your victims.

They just suffer the effects of what you do.

If you are really unlucky, you may have to answer for what you've done.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

PS: Thread title edited to correct spelling. [/b]
Its obvious no one here understands the military here and as to why you simply can't follow directions. You can be tried and imprisoned for "Endangering Fellow Officers" for quiet a few years for simply not pulling a trigger. You guys don't seem to understand, they just can't go against orders as easy as you imagine. Matter of fact, in Russia, that would be considered treason and executable by death on sight more most of the time since the creation of the Soviet Union. Even in democratic states, it can be done and because its wartime, they don't really need to have a trial.

[LSD]

You guys don't seem to understand, they just can't go against orders as easy as you imagine.

Like the SS.

They werere just following orders ...and that made it all OK.

No wait, it didn't.


Even in democratic states, it can be done and because its wartime, they don't really need to have a trial.

If you know that by joining a criminal organization you are going to be called upon to commit crimes ...and you don't want to commit crimes, don't join a criminal organization.

[Severian]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 25 2005, 01:15 PM
Why do we hate the Wehrmacht so much. they were just following orders as well. the reason, when you unquestioningly follow orders that lead to atrocities, no matter what your intentions are, you are just as guilty.
In fact, most Wehrmacht soldiers were workers, many were not involved in atrocities, and the most revolutionary elements of anti-Nazi resistance directed propaganda to German soldiers.

This is a class issue: the enlisted personnel of the military are workers in uniform.

It is not an issue of individual moral witness, personal "free choice" or any of that petty-bourgeois nonsense.

[bolshevik butcher]

I think that it is true that for a lot of people it is a choice between living in poverty and joining the army.

[Vallegrande]

I was already quite aware that there were over 100,000 deaths a few months ago. But of course it is not well documented, nothing is during this war. Everytime I read the newspaper, it always has one sentence referring to the civilian deaths: "The number of civilian deaths is unknown".

I agree that the military is a job now, hence the military-industrial complex. Hey, during the Nazi era, weren't many of the soldiers homeless or poor?

[bolshevik butcher]

I dont hold it against rank and file nazi soldiers, a lot of htem were conscripts.

[Vallegrande]

I also heard that it is not possible to evade the draft if one is in college.

[LSD]

I also heard that it is not possible to evade the draft if one is in college.

Which draft?

Most of the people who already go to college can afford to not have to join the army.

[viva le revolution]

Well, the wehrmacht were just workers in uniform...did they ever disobey or stand against the third reich. as i said, personal feelings do not matter once the act is done. A lot nazi generals were communist-sympathizers, preferring warm relations with the soviet union, indeed some were even communists themselves, but when push came to shove did any act on their feelings? no.. they did not.
The army is a tool of oppression utilized by the governing class to subjucate the weaker ones. if indeed, the army has any class-consciousness then they will rise up and deserve our support, if not, it does not matter whether they are from the working class or not individually, the collective institution should be opposed, because their continued silence and co-operation will be tantamount to a declaration of war on our struggle and our aims.
Beliefs if not acted upon are useless.

[Vallegrande]

Which draft?
I didn't mean a draft really. Beside that possibility, soldiers who have fulfilled their obligations are told to go back to duty. I dont know the exact details of this, but it seems that the military is desperate to find a way to get more people.

BTW did anyone see one of Bush's speeches? He sent a message to encourage people to join the military, something like it's the best thing to do for the nation he said. I haven't heard a president do that before.

[Seeker]

I think that it is true that for a lot of people it is a choice between living in poverty and joining the army.



In America, poverty is no excuse for joining the war machine. There is no chance of starvation here. Even in the most extreme cases, all you need to do is find your local army recruiter, take a bat to his knees, and for the next couple years you'll get 3 meals a day, air conditioning, medical attention, and a roof that doesn't leak.

[Stellix]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 26 2005, 08:55 PM
I think that it is true that for a lot of people it is a choice between living in poverty and joining the army.
For some that is true.

However many of the US soldiers come from upscale suburban towns. They joined not out of poverty but because they want to "kill me some sand n*ggers"

I know because I have talked to these people. They deserve no sympathy from us leftists or any decent person.

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 26 2005, 07:58 PM

You guys don't seem to understand, they just can't go against orders as easy as you imagine.

Like the SS.

They werere just following orders ...and that made it all OK.

No wait, it didn't.


Even in democratic states, it can be done and because its wartime, they don't really need to have a trial.

If you know that by joining a criminal organization you are going to be called upon to commit crimes ...and you don't want to commit crimes, don't join a criminal organization.
Not really, did my uncle know he was going to war in Iraq when had been in the army years before. When he found out, they couldn't let him leave. You cannot leave in wartime without being penalized.

My girlfriend's older brother wanted to be a pilot in the army, yet they forced him to serve as basic infantry.


He was suppose to return home nine weeks ago, but the army is keeping him in overtime. These guys aren't all horrid as we are making them to be. He had always been against bush and even tried convincing his friends in the front line to vote against bush. He's a leftist and he's out there because they won't let him leave


I've seen enough leftist hassal the military, yet some of them honestly don't want to be there, but they cannot leave. I may be one, but I actually have understanding growing in a government family unlike most of these people. That's the only reason I stand for the American Flag anymore. I don't support what America is doing, or America anymore, but I support those guys who don't want to be there and want to come home to their families.

[Seeker]

These guys aren't all horrid as we are making them to be.


An army is made up of individuals of course.

While I may not "support the troops" in the sense of what they are doing, I have physicaly supported individuals in the military.

I live close to a Navy base, and so far I have been able to take in two sailors. Life on the base was driving them crazy, and soon enough they would be out at sea, so I let them stay with me. One decided to quit, and found a way to make it happen. The other . . . its sad, but being a cook for the Navy was the best place for him. He was a bit slow, and before he had a C.O. to dog him on his finances, he had been tricked into taking out all kinds of loans (wich he sent home to his trailertrash abusive redneck parents to get drunk off of, along with a good chunk of his paycheck).

If any more want out, I would be happy to take them in as well.

I would also recomend a non-violent method of geting yourself locked up, not bashing anyone with a bat. But damn do I like to vent =D



The key word is "all", however, and there are a lot of murderous shitbags in the military as well.

[MoscowFarewell]

I know there are a lot of murderous shitbags. I'd gladly hide a few soldiers who deserted.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 12:18 AM

I think that it is true that for a lot of people it is a choice between living in poverty and joining the army.



In America, poverty is no excuse for joining the war machine. There is no chance of starvation here. Even in the most extreme cases, all you need to do is find your local army recruiter, take a bat to his knees, and for the next couple years you'll get 3 meals a day, air conditioning, medical attention, and a roof that doesn't leak.
I think that's a bit ridiculous, a lot of people don't wanna go to jail! And it is true that a lot of upper middle class patriots join the army as well.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Severian+Jul 26 2005, 08:12 PM--> (Severian @ Jul 26 2005, 08:12 PM)
viva le [email protected] 25 2005, 01:15 PM
Why do we hate the Wehrmacht so much. they were just following orders as well. the reason, when you unquestioningly follow orders that lead to atrocities, no matter what your intentions are, you are just as guilty.
In fact, most Wehrmacht soldiers were workers, many were not involved in atrocities, and the most revolutionary elements of anti-Nazi resistance directed propaganda to German soldiers.

This is a class issue: the enlisted personnel of the military are workers in uniform.

It is not an issue of individual moral witness, personal "free choice" or any of that petty-bourgeois nonsense. [/b]
Yes, but it has little baring on today. The US/UK forces are not conscripts, and they are often drawn from the most reactionary ranks of society, lumpens and families with a tradition of military service.

[Severian]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 26 2005, 03:57 PM
if indeed, the army has any class-consciousness then they will rise up and deserve our support, if not, it does not matter whether they are from the working class or not individually,
That can't be known in advance, can it? So do you take an attitude of encouraging resistance by the ranks, or an attitude of assuming in advance that they are your enemies...which is a self-fulfilling prophecy.


the collective institution should be opposed,

Of course. The same is true of a corporation. But not of all its employees.

The military is no different in principle....and sometimes the similarities become political practice.

Oglach McGlinchey:

Yes, but it has little baring on today. The US/UK forces are not conscripts, and they are often drawn from the most reactionary ranks of society, lumpens and families with a tradition of military service.

Yeah, many leftists took the same attitude when they were conscripts, for example during the early part of the Vietnam War. I know plenty of workers who have been in the military, and they don't all have hopelessly reactionary political attitudes. Actually I wouldn't say any were hopeless. Can't say the same for some leftists.

[Andy Bowden]

Weren't the soldiers in the Tsarist armies some of the strongest backers of Bolshevism? Technically these were soldiers in an imperialist army, but were won over by a Socialist programme.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Severian
So do you take an attitude of encouraging resistance by the ranks, or an attitude of assuming in advance that they are your enemies...which is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A tricky proposition...right now, they are almost all "our enemies". Or would be if we were large enough to even attract their attention.

While the story of people "spitting" on returning Vietnam veterans is an urban legend, there's no question but that lefties of my generation in no way "looked up" to them or regarded them as "American heroes". In fact, we regard the bulk of them as unindicted war criminals...to this day.

And naturally, they resented this and felt insulted.

Now, the facts of the current situation are indisputable: the American and British troops are guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis in Iraq and Afghanistan.

On what terms do you appeal to war criminals to "stop doing that"? How do you frame an appeal to them to resist while avoiding mention of what they have already done?

Or that they deserve to be militarily defeated?

That is, killed!

Of course, it's possible to statistically argue that most soldiers don't commit war crimes and, indeed, never fire a hostile shot at anybody.

But we don't know who was a clerk in a supply depot and who raped his way through an Iraqi village.

War criminals don't come home with "the mark of Cain" visible on their foreheads. They look just like everybody else. (The crimes they commit after they return gave some of them away -- there was a small wave of especially violent rapes and murders by Vietnam vets in the U.S. back in the late 70s and through the 80s.)

Since American soldiers are de facto mercenaries now, the most self-evident appeal would be to their self-interest...

The government is not paying you enough for the shit they've landed you in; they're not giving you enough armored vehicles, body armor, etc. They lied to you when you signed up.

And so on. There's no politics involved here; just the attempt to arouse discontent that, hopefully, will grow into something that will seriously interfere with the "war effort".

Yet there's something, well, disturbing about what amounts to a call for "higher pay for war criminals". It "sticks in the throat"...or at least in my throat.

But what else are you going to say to them?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif