How to counter some arguments

[Karl Marx's Camel]

How would you counter these arguments?

For example, regarding Salvador Allende or Jacobo Arbenz, a rightwing might say "Salvador and Jacobo robbed the earth from companies [so it was a good thing/justified that they were taken down]"

"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"

"Communists are just unpractical idealists. They will never get anything done"

"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".

"Communists are fascists, they just don't realize it"

"Communist governments have always been oppressive"

"Communists want to ruin this country, and burn the constitution!"

[redstar2000]

It is extraordinarily difficult (and time-consuming) to counter arguments from ignorance.

I don't think I would bother...unless there was some pressing need to do so.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Clarksist]

"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"


Well, how could someone even know that, as communism on a large scale has never been implemented. The theory is good, but the practice part hasn't been implemented.


"Communists are just unpractical idealists. They will never get anything done"


That's a generalization with no base. Just ask them, "And how many Communists do you know, other than me?"


"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".


You're absolutely right. State Capitalism does tend to fail. I guess that's why I'm a communist.


"Communists are fascists, they just don't realize it"


Communists are for the crushing of any hierarchy, and wish to put the power to the people. Fascists wish to give power to the national and corporate top. How is that similar AT ALL?


"Communist governments have always been oppressive"


Communist societies have no government. So what you just said was an absolute fallacy.


"Communists want to ruin this country, and burn the constitution!"


I'm a communist. And I don't want to ruin this country. I just want to improve it. Sorry if you don't feel the same way. As for the constitution thing, I think that John Ashcroft already burned that a while ago.

----------

Those are my usual quips. Use at your own discretion.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 09:37 AM

"Communists want to ruin this country, and burn the constitution!"
technically thats right, we dont want a government. but thats not a bad thing, its for the better.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 01:37 PM
How would you counter these arguments?



"Communist governments have always been oppressive"


What communist governments? Are there any?

[Dante]

"Salvador and Jacobo robbed the earth from companies [so it was a good thing/justified that they were taken down]"

Comanies rob ordinary working people and make money off the unpaid labour of their workforce. They can get taxed until their pips squeak then when they go bust we will take them over and run them under workers control.


"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"

Why? (Usually leads onto some nonsense about how 'all humans are greedy selfish pigs who apparently would probably stab their own mothers in order to get rich)


"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".

yeah revolutions do fail if they are isolated and fail to spread. Capitalism would collapse if it only existed in one country as well.

Anyway comrade, stop being on the defensive, take the fight to them!

Question: How can you justify a system where a child starves to death every 3 seconds?

Question: How can you justify a system where 650 people own more wealth than the poorest 50% of the planets population?

Question: How is capitalism sustainable when all the decisions are made by the rich, and they usually conflict massivly with the needs of the poor?

Question: How can you bare to live in a world where racism, sexism and homophobia blight the lives of ordinary people, where the mind numbing drudgery of most jobs crushes your soul, where poverty is a real problem for the great majority of people on this planet when some people live in disgusintg luxury?

And so on.

[Clarksist]

Anyway comrade, stop being on the defensive, take the fight to them!


That's an important suggestion. So many times people just take the criticism, instead of actually getting into the argument.

[Redvolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 04:33 AM

"Salvador and Jacobo robbed the earth from companies [so it was a good thing/justified that they were taken down]"

Comanies rob ordinary working people and make money off the unpaid labour of their workforce. They can get taxed until their pips squeak then when they go bust we will take them over and run them under workers control.


"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"

Why? (Usually leads onto some nonsense about how 'all humans are greedy selfish pigs who apparently would probably stab their own mothers in order to get rich)


"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".

yeah revolutions do fail if they are isolated and fail to spread. Capitalism would collapse if it only existed in one country as well.

Anyway comrade, stop being on the defensive, take the fight to them!

Question: How can you justify a system where a child starves to death every 3 seconds?

Question: How can you justify a system where 650 people own more wealth than the poorest 50% of the planets population?

Question: How is capitalism sustainable when all the decisions are made by the rich, and they usually conflict massivly with the needs of the poor?

Question: How can you bare to live in a world where racism, sexism and homophobia blight the lives of ordinary people, where the mind numbing drudgery of most jobs crushes your soul, where poverty is a real problem for the great majority of people on this planet when some people live in disgusintg luxury?

And so on.
Wow, those were some REALLY good counter-arguements.

Seriously, thank you! Those 2 statistics (children/650 men) are awesome.

[ryanred77]

And if someone says all of that at once, here's how you should respond:

"And come the revolution, we'll shoot your fuckin' ass."

[Dante]

Wow, those were some REALLY good counter-arguements.

Seriously, thank you! Those 2 statistics (children/650 men) are awesome.

There is load smore where that comes from, comrade. Did you know that if all the G8 'reforms' from Gleaneagles were implemented (all the extra aid and what not they promised) that it would be 1 child dying every 3.5 seconds by 2010. I.E. sod all difference.

Today, across the world, 1.3 billion people live on less than one dollar a day; 3 billion live on under two dollars a day; 1.3 billion have no access to clean water; 3 billion have no access to sanitation; 2 billion have no access to electricity.”
There is loads of stuff like that from here (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp)

The point of Marxism is that it is right that is its intrinsic power, frankly (and I do not mean to be youth oppressive!) a lot of those 'arguments' are playground stuff, Marxism has given us the theory and the method that we need to create an international revolutionary party and smash capitalism!

[Anarchist Freedom]

The only people that ever say this are highschoolers and stupid ass adults.

[OleMarxco]

Now that's just the generalization we needed - Considerin' it's comin' from someone who claims himself to be revolutionary - speech-to-least be in attitude, if not in actions! What is this? Judgin' by age or profession (in this case, studyin'-) is pretty reactionary in my book. Everyone opinion's equal, not restricted by what you do or who you are. That shit could've come from everyone, no matter who they are. It's not so seldom that - it's in fact - your tidy housewife who really has the most radical views, catch my drift, yo? :D

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 02:37 PM
How would you counter these arguments?

For example, regarding Salvador Allende or Jacobo Arbenz, a rightwing might say "Salvador and Jacobo robbed the earth from companies [so it was a good thing/justified that they were taken down]"

"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"

"Communists are just unpractical idealists. They will never get anything done"

"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".

"Communists are fascists, they just don't realize it"

"Communist governments have always been oppressive"

"Communists want to ruin this country, and burn the constitution!"
"For example, regarding Salvador Allende or Jacobo Arbenz, a rightwing might say "Salvador and Jacobo robbed the earth from companies [so it was a good thing/justified that they were taken down]"

Yes, we like robbing stuff from companies. Try to stup us suckers.
(however we do not intend to, as Allende did, nationalize private property. Our goal is to abolish private property as such, and that is no secret.


"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"

Communist theory is not a map to communism in practise, communism in theory is a way to understand communism in practise. And communism in practise is not the USSR, nor China nor Cuba, etc.


"Communists are just unpractical idealists. They will never get anything done"

We will see.


"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".

Ok? And...? Thats not what we are striving towards anyway.


"Communists are fascists, they just don't realize it"

*BEEP* Wrong. Next!


"Communist governments have always been oppressive"

"Communist" goverments & parties are anti-communist and our enemies too.


"Communists want to ruin this country, and burn the constitution!"

Yes we do. And it's going to be fun!
Live with it!




------------


As you see, you don't have to waste much time on ignorant idiots who don't understand anything. An alternative answer to all these statements is: "Read some fucking books first, then ask questions".

[Weltmann]

Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"
In Socialist Cuba there is a infant mortality rate of 5.8 per 1000, lower than most of other countries in the western hemisphere, and even lower than the US (where it's 7.1)! Cuba has the lowest HIV infection rate in the western hemisphere, and it is ranked first in the number of doctors per head of population in the world and first with the smallest number of students per teacher. All the health and education services are provided free of charge, and housing is heavily subsidized (By law, rent cannot exceed 10% of your salary).

The fact that a small, underdeveloped third-world country such as Cuba could have achieved so much and maintained it (even under more than 40 years of US embargo) constitutes an enourmous proof that Socialism is good "in practice" as well as "in theory".

But not only in Cuba. Socialist Vietnam also had huge achievements in many fields (even after a devestating war with the USA, and afterwards - with Cambodia and China). It lowered poverty from 75% in the late 80's, to 28% in 2002, which is the world's most rapid poverty reduction on record!

Same in the USSR: in less then a generation, Socialism transformed Russia from a backward, agrarian country, into an industrailly and technologically strong world power, elliminated illiteracy, homelessness and unemployment, and gave a huge boost to the status of women. Socialist Russia was the first country, back in 1917 (Even before the establishment of the USSR in 1922) to repeal all laws discriminating against Homosexuals and against women.

Sure, USSR and other Eastern European Socialist countries had loads of problems (Which ultimately resulted in the overthrow of Socialism and restoration of Capitalism in those countries), and sure, even remaining Socialist countries (Cuba and Vietnam, not to mention China, Laos or Korea) have their share of troubles and imperfections, but the conclusion to draw from all this is not that Socialism is bad "in practice" (other people in this thread have demonstrated quite well how Capitalism is much bad in practice), but that the struggle for a Socialist, democratic and humane society must nevertheless go on, constantly maintaining self-criticism and learning from past mistakes.

(This response also tackles "Look at the Soviet Union or China. It has failed every time").


"Communist governments have always been oppressive"
But of course they do, all goverments are oppressive! This is the cornerstone of the Marxist theory on the state: that every state is a mechanism for class repression, every state is a dictatorship of a class over other classes.

In slave society (for example, ancient Greece or Rome or Eygpt, etc.) the state was a mechanism of the slaveowners to repress the slaves; Under Feudalism, the state was used by the feudal landowners to repress the peasants (and later on, the urban bourgeoisie).

The same also holds for Capitalism, as the Capitalist state (all capitalist states - let they be "democracies", as in the US or Europe, or dictatorships, as Singapore, or even Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, etc.) is basically a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie over all other classes.

Logically continuing, Socialism will be a dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e a state the represses the former rulling classes (to prevent them from returning to power, from restoring Capitalism or sabotaging the building of Socialism). The "trick" here, is that for the first time, the rulling class (the proletariat) will not by a minority of the population, but the vast majority. That is why Socialism (based on the dictatorship of the proletariat) is the most democratic form of goverment.

What's all this got to do with the anticommunist argument of "Communist governments have always been oppressive"? Well, first of all, those who usually make these arguments do not agree with (or, more often, completely unaware) of the Marxist theory of state. So a little speech here can do some good. Second, they usually use this argument to refer to the violations of civil rights and democratic norms in Socialist countries (which sometimes, under Stalin's USSR, for example, amounted to plain crimes). Well... this is where you apologize for the past, and assure a more rectified future (see my answer to the argument above ;) ).

[KC]

Communist states don't exist. Therefore none of them have been oppressive. Communists can't even understand this?

[Kleng]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 04:33 AM
Communist states don't exist.
Yes it does.

[joshdavies]

Originally posted by Kleng+Aug 3 2005, 01:31 PM--> (Kleng @ Aug 3 2005, 01:31 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 04:33 AM
Communist states don't exist.
Yes it does. [/b]
There's no such thing as a communist state.

Here's some quotes nicked from 'The State and Revolution' (pamphlet by Lenin which sums up the Marxist theory of the state)


Only in communist society, when the resistance of the capitalists have disappeared, when there are no classes (i.e., when there is no distinction between the members of society as regards their relation to the social means of production), only then "the state... ceases to exist", and "it becomes possible to speak of freedom".


during the transition from capitalism to communism suppression is still necessary, but it is now the suppression of the exploiting minority by the exploited majority. A special apparatus, a special machine for suppression, the "state", is still necessary, but this is now a transitional state. It is no longer a state in the proper sense of the word; for the suppression of the minority of exploiters by the majority of the wage slaves of yesterday is comparatively so easy, simple and natural a task that it will entail far less bloodshed than the suppression of the risings of slaves, serfs or wage-laborers, and it will cost mankind far less. And it is compatible with the extension of democracy to such an overwhelming majority of the population that the need for a special machine of suppression will begin to disappear.

I won't do more quotes here, but read this (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm#s1) on the difference between socialism and communism (neither has yet been achieved

Also read the thirs part of Socialism: Utopian and Scientific (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm) by Engels. Which puts it in this way:


The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State.

[Kleng]

I know the difference between socialism and communism.

A communist state is not a word that describes a communist society with a state (wich would be impossible), but a non-communist state run by a communist party. Like Sovjet or China. A communist state is what most people assosiate with a communist society.

[Black Dagger]

A communist state is not a word that describes a communist society with a state (wich would be impossible), but a non-communist state run by a communist party. Like Sovjet or China. A communist state is what most people assosiate with a communist society.

So the USA is a republican state? The UK, a labour state? Australia, a liberal state?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 01:37 PM











"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"

Its never been put into practice, so we cannot say.


"Communists are just unpractical idealists. They will never get anything done"

Idealist? yes. Impractical? perhaps, but I will keep going anyway, and build from the achievements many left-wing groups are making in reality, while you put them down in your MIND.


"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".

That's why im not a Marxist-Lenninist-Stalinist-Maoist


"Communists are fascists, they just don't realize it"

Yes, of course, people that want to ultimately remove hierarchy and create a stateless classless society in which the people make the decisions through a Democratic system, free from discrimination are naturally fascists, it gos without saying.


"Communist governments have always been oppressive"

haha Which Communist Governments would they be?


"Communists want to ruin this country, and burn the constitution!"

So do conservatives...

[JC1]

Communist states don't exist. Therefore none of them have been oppressive. Communists can't even understand this?

Be nice, english isnt weltmann's first language.

[Freedom Works]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 10:33 AM

Question: How can you justify a system where a child starves to death every 3 seconds?

Question: How can you justify a system where 650 people own more wealth than the poorest 50% of the planets population?

Question: How is capitalism sustainable when all the decisions are made by the rich, and they usually conflict massivly with the needs of the poor?

Question: How can you bare to live in a world where racism, sexism and homophobia blight the lives of ordinary people, where the mind numbing drudgery of most jobs crushes your soul, where poverty is a real problem for the great majority of people on this planet when some people live in disgusintg luxury?

And so on.
1. The same way you can justify a system where theft is legal and commonplace.

2. This is a "government" failure, not capitalism's. The government regulates businesses and makes it harder for poor people to go into business for themselves, thus killing them, and lowering their lifestyle.

3. One thing communists don't seem to realize, is that capitalism is not a caste system, unlike communism. In capitalism, "rich" people loose their money, and "poor" people raise theirs. In communism, everyone is poor. Woohoo! Lets make everyone "poor" so they can live shitty lives, all in the name of "fairness". Fucking utilitarian idiots.

4: This is government failure on the part of all socialist activities, government schools (they suck, don't try to deny it), minimum wage (Mentally retarded people aren't worth 6 bucks an hour, how can you justify keeping them unemployed!? or forcing me to pay for them?!), all licenses and regulations (helps keep small business from being all their is in the marketplace, so it's less for the big corporations to worry about)

How the fuck, can you say that you want to keep small businesses down?! Are you a fucking moron?

Oh yes, and about the poverty, did you know that about 60% of the money you buy stuff with goes to government? It doesn't take an economist to figure out that people are MUCH better off without a third party stealing, oops! I mean, "taxing" from them.


There is no state.
- Freedom Works

[Freedom Works]

"Communism is good in theory, but not in practice"
Actually, it's not good in either. Freedom works with any number of people, but communism can only work on a small scale. (1-15000 maaaayyybe) It's like when communists point at Sweden, Switzerland and all that. Do you know how hard it is to get into the "state"?!


"Communists are just unpractical idealists. They will never get anything done"
Idealism is fine, the initiation of violence, extortion, and coercion is NOT.


"Look at the Soviet Union or China. It [the supposed socialism in thes countries]has failed every time".
Too large a "state".


"Communists are fascists, they just don't realize it"
If they are forcing people to become part of their "commune" (or not letting them leave) they are fascist. Otherwise, go for it! Freedom truly works for all.


Yes, of course, people that want to ultimately remove hierarchy and create a stateless classless society in which the people make the decisions through a Democratic system, free from discrimination are naturally fascists, it gos without saying.
People that ultimately think everyone is born equal, and you can never be above equal, and create society of one class (poor) in which people make majority rule decisions, and if 51% want you dead, oh well, I guess you can cry now. Oh, and that's not even mentioning how horribly corruptive "democracy" is. You also forgot the part about where people steal from each other, because they need whatever it is!


"Communist governments have always been oppressive"
"Government" is never legitimate, so this obviously isn't true. (Though people in the commune might have been oppressive)


"Communists want to ruin this country, and burn the constitution!"
The Constitution of The united States of America is pretty much bullshit. It's a great paper and all, but no "government" is legitimate. (Even if you REAAAALLY REAAAALLLLY want it to be)


So do conservatives...
Are you a fucking idiot? Do you know what "conservative" fucking means?

[Lamanov]

Recently posted on balkanforums.com :

Marxism: Theses on Stupid Questions (http://www.balkanforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=378)

:ph34r:

[Antiks]

Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 12 2005, 10:26 PM


Idealism is fine, the initiation of violence, extortion, and coercion is NOT.

Agreed. The U.S. has been at the forefront of a lot of violence, extortion, and coercion. U.S. policies and actions have killed millions illegally, and continue to do so.

The U.S. talks about how free its citizens are, but nothing is further from the truth. You cannot make wage slaves out of people, and then say they're free in one stroke. You cannot imprison a greater and greater percentage of your population year after year and say they're free.

It's an illusion, and it's bullshit. Have a nice day.

[Commie-Pinko]

Freedom. Please don't call Utilitarians "fucking idiots." Utilitarianism is also compatible with Capitalism. It's ignorant of you to equate communism w/ Utilitarianism. They aren't the same and one doesn't require the other. You really need to brush the fuck up on your political science and philosophy, since many of the original utilitarians were market capitalists--(IEJames Mill and John Stuart Mill).

Mill was a huge supporter of the market system, as well as civil liberties and economic freedom. There were also many other Capitalist Utilitarians.

[LSD]

since many of the original utilitarians were market capitalists--(IEJames Mill and John Stuart Mill).

John Stuart Mill advocated nationalizing natural resources and advocated "worker collectives". He may not have been a socialist, but he was most certainly not a market capitalist!

Pure capitalism as a system is incongruous with utilitarianism as it is predicated on maintaining privilege and sustaining inequality.