Comrade in struggle

[Laughing Man]

Hello everyone,

I'm new here and looking forward to some good debate. I won't hide that I am in fact a Fascist, but I would like to believe at least our enemies are the same, if not our ideology. You certainly can expect me to be more civil than the most of the none-Communists you probably get around here. I have allready distinguished myself on several Communist forums with my gentile decorum. I am always curious about the goings-on of my rivals. I myself, as many Fascists at one point did, spent time as a Communist supporter. Even though the Soviet Union was clearly not as Socialist as it was cracked up to be, I still admire it to a degree and think it had redeeming qualities, mainly its kick-arse natinal hym. :D I hope I won't be sent off because of your bad experiances with so-called Fascists and other none-Communists. I promise you, we're not all arses like that. We're the dangerous ones because we're not arses. :rolleyes:

[enigma2517]

I got all of that except for one thing.

Whats our common enemy?

Facism supports capitalism (or less the general market system) while playing favorites and subsidizing key businesses.

Also, whats your view on human rights, freedom of speech, etc. What justifies this authoritarian approach in your mind?

[Organic Revolution]

enigma, he cant answer here anymore, hes restricted.

[chaval]

bam! just like that

[anomaly]

My advice is to not tell this fascist piece of shit any of our 'goings-on'.

[tondraal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 04:39 AM
Facism supports capitalism (or less the general market system) while playing favorites and subsidizing key businesses.

I think he thinks he is a national-socialist.
As much as I have contacts with NS skinheads (I am a marxist!), national-socialism isn`t as bad as we all think.

Germany was national-socialistic as much as Societ union was communistic.

National-socialism is anti-capitalistical, because it brings jobs for the needy (positive), disables mega-capitaists (positive) and makes national identity more clear (positive? negative?). Usualy patriotism is boosted up, not nationalism.
But in Germany and Italy wrong people were the leaders and messed the things up.

National-socialism could be working (who are we lying, all the citizens of the world cannot be one nation!), as long there wouldn be racism and ksenophoby.

Anyway, national-socialism could be the first step into socialism and then communism... ;)

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by tondraal+Jul 23 2005, 05:01 PM--> (tondraal @ Jul 23 2005, 05:01 PM)
[email protected] 23 2005, 04:39 AM
Facism supports capitalism (or less the general market system) while playing favorites and subsidizing key businesses.

I think he thinks he is a national-socialist.
As much as I have contacts with NS skinheads (I am a marxist!), national-socialism isn`t as bad as we all think.

Germany was national-socialistic as much as Societ union was communistic.

National-socialism is anti-capitalistical, because it brings jobs for the needy (positive), disables mega-capitaists (positive) and makes national identity more clear (positive? negative?). Usualy patriotism is boosted up, not nationalism.
But in Germany and Italy wrong people were the leaders and messed the things up.

National-socialism could be working (who are we lying, all the citizens of the world cannot be one nation!), as long there wouldn be racism and ksenophoby.

Anyway, national-socialism could be the first step into socialism and then communism... ;) [/b]
hmm... a nationalist marxist.

[OleMarxco]

Move this thread to "Opposed Ideologies", then, so he can answer to what we speak to 'im in his "intial" introduction-thread.... So the debate can rage on. The answers of will be interesting...and foolish. That's just fair..for the fool, who thinks we're the same because of the totalarianess of Soviet, we're not just fascists in another costume! BAH!

Love you too :wub:

[tondraal]

@rise up: Hmm...I wouldnt consider myself nationalis, perhaps a patriot, but that is beside the point and is not involving rasism.

I am just saying that things arent necessery black or white, but a mixture of different elements.

Oh, and yes, I am absolutly against Nazist Germany and all other nations who were alied or had a political sistem of rasist contsxt (Spain).

[LSD]

Moved to Opposing Ideologies.

[Laughing Man]

Tondraal actualy made the connection I thought no one would make. I have always said that to describe Fascism simply with two words, National Socialism would be the words, though Germany was not realy a Fascist State, but more of a copycat State. Fascism views the State as the ends. Hitler used Fascist organization and the State to achieve his racial ends. Internationalism to us has clearly failed. You may think differantly, but that is what Fascists think. So, for Socialism to be successfull it had to find a differant outlet. The idea works like this. Socialy proggressive ideas have only come about historicaly do to the might of strong nations. It is stupid to support patriotism while sacraficing the proggressive, as the right does, for this means no developmentalism that would make the nation so strong and worthy of pride. Eqauly stupid is the left's abandonment of the nation in search of the proggressive, for only a nation can achieve proggress. The world does not. By combining the National and Social you better both and make obsolete both International Socialism and Capitalism.

Thanks for moving this thread.

P.S., I have no delusions about the Soviet Union. It was clearly not Socialist. Anyone who thinks otherwise is truly misguided. I think it has redeeming qualities still however, from a wholist perspective.

[KC]

Socialy proggressive ideas have only come about historicaly do to the might of strong nations.

Wrong. History is the history of class struggle, not the struggle of nations.

[Laughing Man]

History is not totaly either of these. Both are important, but neither is dominant. There are many, many other things in history.

[KC]

The history of society - the development of society - therefore the history of humanity, is based on class struggle.

[MoscowFarewell]

Very true.

[Laughing Man]

I have yet to be convinced. What about great individuals, inventions and events? That the class conflict and the method to produce goods is important can't be denied. But history is not limited to these things. History is dynamic.

[KC]

Consciousness of individuals is created and influenced completely by society.

[Laughing Man]

Bah! Humbug. Great minds think for themselves, even when influenced by an outside force.

[Publius]

Socialy proggressive ideas have only come about historicaly do to the might of strong nations.

Absolute trash.

The state has been the cause of all problems throughout history.

[Laughing Man]

Democracy/Powerfull nations. Socialism (attempt at socialism)/Powerfull nations. Fascism/Powerfull nations. New ideas travel through power. My argument has evidence. Even the religions like christianity only traveled far because Rome, a powerfull nation, accpeted it.

[Publius]

Democracy/Powerfull nations. Socialism (attempt at socialism)/Powerfull nations. Fascism/Powerfull nations. New ideas travel through power. My argument has evidence. Even the religions like christianity only traveled far because Rome, a powerfull nation, accpeted it.

Those are all failures.

Democracy? Democracy is mostly a sham.

Not to mention democracy was orignally anti-state. The monarchs and lords of the time were not fans of Democracy.

Socialism? Failure.

Fascism? Failure.

Religion? Failure.

The state IS a failure, historically.

[Laughing Man]

Better, States historicly fail. It is inevitable that all regimes and nations must one day collapse. That shouldn't stop you from building the best State you can, in a way you think will stand the test of time. Of what you said is a failure is up to opinion. Especialy Fascism, remember, fell from millitary invasion, and not internal unrest. Fascism could be around today if not for the war.


Yes, Democracy is a sham.

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 05:06 AM
The history of society - the development of society - therefore the history of humanity, is based on class struggle.
I am currently studying the Crusades. When analyzing the battle of Hattin, where do we see class struggle?

To Laughing Man:Go worship some portrait you mindless follower.

[Laughing Man]

Peace and love dude.

[KC]

Bah! Humbug. Great minds think for themselves, even when influenced by an outside force.


Ugh. MATERIALISM.


Especialy Fascism, remember, fell from millitary invasion, and not internal unrest. Fascism could be around today if not for the war.

Fascism fell from military invasion AND civil unrest. Thats what national resistance groups were.



I am currently studying the Crusades. When analyzing the battle of Hattin, where do we see class struggle?

I'm not sure what that is. I haven't studied the crusades much, an dhave never heard of the battle of Hattin. But the point is that every major historical event is BASED on class struggle.

[Laughing Man]

Such groups were usualy Socialist, and came about only late in the war when Fascism was loosing.

And as for class, proove it bucko. No one has yet.

[KC]

Who are you talking to?

Prove class exists?
Bourgouisie: People who own the means of production.
Proletariat: People who don't.

Have you read any Marxist literature?

[LSD]

And as for class, proove it bucko. No one has yet.

You and Moneybags should get together! :lol:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1291906668 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=38174&view=findpost&p=1291906668)

[Laughing Man]

No, I disagree with him. I believe in class, and the class war. I don't like either but I don't deny their existence. I want proof that the class war has dominated history like everyone says.

[zendo]

1111111

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Laughing [email protected] 25 2005, 12:04 AM
No, I disagree with him. I believe in class, and the class war. I don't like either but I don't deny their existence. I want proof that the class war has dominated history like everyone says.
You don't like class OR class war? That doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like class, surely you'd like to get rid of it; how if not class war?

[Elect Marx]

So Laughing Man:

You are some sort of utopian socialist fascist?

Do you think social progress will be handed down by those in power?

Do you think the conservative interests of those in power will give way for social progress at the risk of losing the accumulated control over society?

[Laughing Man]

You don't like class OR class war? That doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like class, surely you'd like to get rid of it; how if not class war?

State power in building class collaboration is the only realistic method. Class war is bloody, and leaves the nation with too many dead specialists. The myth of communism is that that specialists and other members of the middle class will just change sides and avoid elimination. Fat chance. They'l fight until death.



You are some sort of utopian socialist fascist?

If you remove the utopian and socialist part, sure.



Do you think social progress will be handed down by those in power?

Certainly not. It must be worked for by a whole people. The problem is, only an elite can inspire such labor. I'm not sayings elites always will. I don't deny that elite's have done bad in the past and will do bad in the future. But history seems to indicate that elites are all we got. So logicaly, we should strive to build as good an elite as we can.



Do you think the conservative interests of those in power will give way for social progress at the risk of losing the accumulated control over society?

Social proggresse can come with power. Remember Napoleon? Franky, I would say a wise elite is good the people. If not, it will ask for rebelion and it will get it.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Laughing [email protected] 25 2005, 05:34 PM


You don't like class OR class war? That doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like class, surely you'd like to get rid of it; how if not class war?

State power in building class collaboration is the only realistic method. Class war is bloody, and leaves the nation with too many dead specialists. The myth of communism is that that specialists and other members of the middle class will just change sides and avoid elimination. Fat chance. They'l fight until death.


Do you really think that the state, made up of the ruling class, will willingly relinquish any of its power? :lol:

And 'specialists' would only die on a large scale if it was a revolution that occurred without the right level of social consciousness; a premature revolution. Most 'specialists' are, after all, workers- they work for someone else, the same goes for most of the middle class. The mass slaughter you speak of occurs in revolutions led by an 'elite,' imposing it's will on people who aren't ready for a revolution.

[Laughing Man]

I guess your revolution will never come then, because all revolutions have historicly been led by elites. And for the record, I never once said the elite would give up power. I said it would reform, but this can be done without giving up power.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Laughing [email protected] 26 2005, 02:35 AM
I guess your revolution will never come then, because all revolutions have historicly been led by elites.
your logic is that 'since it has always been that way, it will always be this way.'

do things have to be this way, i think, is the better question.

[Laughing Man]

I understand what your getting at, and I admit that is wrong to deal in absolutes too much. But some things, though not many, do seem to occur enough that there is no harm in finding a pattern. Almost every revolution has been led by elites, and there have been lots of revolutions. The ones with no elites behind them were things like slave revolts and prison upprisings, when lots of people acted in herd fashion when they sensed an opportunity. As it is, to change a government in modern times would probably require secret manuevers, and milltary coups. A people's revolution will probably never happen again, because millitaries have become so deadly. A few tanks could stop the whole thing.

[KC]

I understand what your getting at, and I admit that is wrong to deal in absolutes too much. But some things, though not many, do seem to occur enough that there is no harm in finding a pattern. Almost every revolution has been led by elites, and there have been lots of revolutions. The ones with no elites behind them were things like slave revolts and prison upprisings, when lots of people acted in herd fashion when they sensed an opportunity. As it is, to change a government in modern times would probably require secret manuevers, and milltary coups. A people's revolution will probably never happen again, because millitaries have become so deadly. A few tanks could stop the whole thing.

You think the military is more powerful than a nation of people?

[Lord Testicles]

first of all you havent awnered enigmas questions
I got all of that except for one thing.

Whats our common enemy?

Facism supports capitalism (or less the general market system) while playing favorites and subsidizing key businesses.

Also, whats your view on human rights, freedom of speech, etc. What justifies this authoritarian approach in your mind?

and secondly
Peace and love dude coming from a facist??? hmmmmm

[Laughing Man]

You think the military is more powerful than a nation of people?

Depends realy. In some countries the masses could beat the army with the enough effort. But not in the most important country on Earth. In America we have a people, hugley divided in their beliefe's, armed, but lightly. But we have an army, disiplined, trained, loyal and deadly. It would slaughter any revolution it didn't support. As it is, it probably wouldn't support Socialism. Fascist philosophy comes in large part from the millitary. They are more likley to accept Fascism.

Skinz, our common enemy is Capitalism. Though we veiw Capitalism as something differant from you. While Communists think it is a State where individuals may own the means of production, we see it as a State where money rules man. "In brief definition, Capitalism is the system by which capital uses the Nation for its own purposes. Fascism is the system by which the Nation uses capital for its own purposes." - Sir Oswald Mosley

And there is nothing wrong with peace or love.

[Publius]

Capitalism isn't using the state for itself.

I (A capitalist) would very much like to see the state abolished.

[Mujer Libre]

Maybe on of the reasons why none of those revolutions have been the most successful things is becayuse the WERE led by an elite. <_<

[KC]

Depends realy. In some countries the masses could beat the army with the enough effort. But not in the most important country on Earth. In America we have a people, hugley divided in their beliefe&#39;s, armed, but lightly. But we have an army, disiplined, trained, loyal and deadly. It would slaughter any revolution it didn&#39;t support. As it is, it probably wouldn&#39;t support Socialism. Fascist philosophy comes in large part from the millitary. They are more likley to accept Fascism.

Tell me, genius, have you ever thought of what happens once the military BEATS the people? The people ARE the nation, and therefore a revolution that doesn&#39;t give in will have a 0% chance failure rate. Even if every person was killed, the revolution still would have won, as the state, without having anybody to rule over, will be destroyed.

[Lord Testicles]

And there is nothing wrong with peace or love.

i didnt say there was anything wrong with peace and love. Im just saying that your giving out mixed mesages i thought facism belived im militarism (along with all the racism and what not ) yet there is nothing peaceful or loving about the military.


In America we have a people, hugley divided in their beliefe&#39;s, armed, but lightly. But we have an army, disiplined, trained, loyal and deadly. It would slaughter any revolution it didn&#39;t support.

do you really think the troops would kill their friends and family