Revolution?

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

Well everyone...I must say I can tell the majority of members here are very young. Your ideas are very interesting but very unlikely to ever happen. I feel that most of you have alot of life to experience before you are ready enough to decide wether or not we need a complete society change. One member told me to understand a form of gov't you have to live under it, well i say to you all then move to an area where communism is being practiced. Oh and email me when the revolution begins...I shouldn't be hard to find b/c i'll probably have died from old age.

[violencia.Proletariat]

communism isnt really being practiced, maybe on a very small scale in a few places. im guessing your referring to the ussr, china, vietnam, none of these countries were communist.

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

My point exactly

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 01:29 PM
My point exactly
what point is that? my point that it will be a long time before the actual armed revolution in america. but thats not true of other places. you seem to doubt that communism is a good idea and will never happen, i dont agree with that.

[Seeker]

it will be a long time before the actual armed revolution in america.


After highschool, a friend of mine decided to join the US Navy. Since then, I have learned from him that our top military brass are more concerned with internal insurrection than they are any external revolution. (He has also let slip some of our amphibious assault, fleet force protection, and naval boarding tactics. Moral - keep your enemies closer.)

However, the people in this country that would be starting the fight are the Christian version of the Taliban - authoritarian religious fundamentalists. There are already a number of racist, homophobic, Bible-thumping militias that have been organized.

The good news is that at least some of them have embraced the teachings of Jesus over the teachings of the Church (ie helping the downtrodden is priority number one). I have some level of respect for these. Personally, I am against the Church (and all other forms of organized religion involving middlemen that exploit their congregation), but am not atheist.

The bad news is that a lot of them want to impose Biblical Law (stonings for sex out of marriage, "witches" being burned on a stake, torturing gay people until they claim to be straight, and so on).

However, there is a good chance for chaos, and chaos is the mother of opportunity.

[Warren Peace]

A rightist revolution instead of a leftist one? That's a bizzare idea. There is no country today more reactionary than America, except Israel maybe, so imagine how Nazist a rightist would have to be to support violence against the US government.

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

One of my main objections to communism is mainly that there is no belief in God or any higher power. Its not that i feel everyone has to believe but i feel that as a majority, w/o any kind of belief in a higher power people begin to lose a kind of absolute and universal system of coordinates, to which he could always relate everything, chiefly himself. Their world and personality would gradually begin to break up into separate, incoherent framents corresponding to differnet relative coordinates. It seems that over time people would lose a humble respect for the whole of creation and awareness of our obligations to it.

[LSD]

One of my main objections to communism is mainly that there is no belief in God or any higher power.

We've seen what theocracy has wrought, however. Those societies which are predicated on a "belief in God" are some of the most brutal in history.

One of the great developments of the modern age has been the birth of true secularism. Societies, at least in theory, free of supernaturalism.

When you base a society in antiquated and anachronistic "beliefs", you always end up with oppression, and when you predicate a culture on superstition and "faith", you crush the human spirit.

That which makes us unique as a species is our ability for rational thought. Sacrificing that ability on the alter of "faith" is one of the most self-destructive acts we are capable of.


w/o any kind of belief in a higher power people begin to lose a kind of absolute and universal system of coordinates

That's right. The society would have to come up with its own moral framework. One which would actually reflect reality as opposed to the material conditions of 1500 or 2000 or 3000 years ago.


It seems that over time people would lose a humble respect for the whole of creation and awareness of our obligations to it.

Why?

Our "obligation" to the world stems from our dependency on it. Our "respect" for it is irrelevent.

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by Revolt Now!@Jul 22 2005, 12:19 PM
A rightist revolution instead of a leftist one? That's a bizzare idea. There is no country today more reactionary than America, except Israel maybe, so imagine how Nazist a rightist would have to be to support violence against the US government.
I believe, at least in America, a rightist "revolution" is impossible. The change wouldn't be drastic enough to consider it a revolution, it would merely be a violent "nudge" to the further right.


One of my main objections to communism is mainly that there is no belief in God or any higher power.


The theory of communism has nothing to do with religion. Yes, many commies are athiest (including me), and yes many commies wish to take down organized religion. But communism has NOTHING to do with religion. In a communist society, there would be little reason for the church as no money would be made so organized religions would most likely cease.


Well everyone...I must say I can tell the majority of members here are very young.


Just because most of us are in our youth, doesn't make what we point out any less correct. Many people here are also older as well. But just because you are young (and what you are trying to say is that we are ignorant) doesn't make what we say any more fictitious then if we said it twenty years from now.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Your ideas are very interesting but very unlikely to ever happen.

300 years ago, something like "democracy" was unthinkable. 50 years ago, segregation was an universal law. These are only few examples of why society change - and has to change. The human being have lived under every possible system. The only system we never have lived under is socialism, or communism.

And since we have learned from previous systems, the next revolution will be a true socialist one.


I feel that most of you have alot of life to experience before you are ready enough to decide wether or not we need a complete society change.

I see. You think that revolution, socialism and communism are just a stage, most apparent in the young ages of the human being. Yes it is. It is also true that humans fall into greed and corruption when they live in such systems, which we are today.

Communism isn't just some "fuck everything"-ideology, it is a very true, idealistic and revolutionary idea. Under communism, everything will be possible. Under capitalism, nothing is.


One member told me to understand a form of gov't you have to live under it, well i say to you all then move to an area where communism is being practiced.

I understand it that you don't know what communism is. Communism is a society without government, where every man and woman is equal, where people decide on a community-scale. This means that there can be no government at all - in turn, there can be no countries, in order for this kind of system to work.

The claimed "communist" governments that is reported in history is not communist. They had a strong government, where people worked for the government, and not for the people (i.e., themselves). This is known as Marxism-Leninism, or stalinism.


Oh and email me when the revolution begins...I shouldn't be hard to find b/c i'll probably have died from old age.

No need - you will be born in a communist society in your next life :D ...


communism isnt really being practiced, maybe on a very small scale in a few places.

True and false. It is not, and have not been, practiced in the governments in the ages, but have been practiced in communities. In fact, communism works, in a way, right at your house - when you help your family, and when they help you.


you seem to doubt that communism is a good idea and will never happen, i dont agree with that.

I agree. We can never think like that - because if we do, capitalism will prevail and there can be ages before the idea is enlightened again. Sure - the revolution is probably a long way ahead of our time - but that doesn't mean that we don't have to do anything. That revolution is, contrary to beliefs, in our hands right now. We spread these ideas, we enlighten other people, our own children, and so on. And when people know this idea, know how it works - then the revolution will happen.


Since then, I have learned from him that our top military brass is more concerned with internal insurrection than they are with about any external revolution.

Of course they are concerned. Concerned of their precious system will fall, that they will loose their high positions, their money, their place in society. After all, a strong military need wars to survive - which the US has. And how can they wage war if their homeland don't agree with their warmongering?


There are already a number of racist, homophobic, Bible-thumping militias that have been organized.

Of course. They think that there is a conspiracy of the so-called "New World Order", headed by the ever invisible and indestructable Illuminati, to establish a "communist" society. The 11th September gave them fuel, and now the London Bombings. These attacks results in more laws passed - thus their wet dream are comming true.

(Off note: How come they always post bad news, and never anything about how people should defend themselves or anything? Just a thought.)


A rightist revolution instead of a leftist one?

I think he meant that when they rise up and begin to fight, opportunities for us (leftists) will open up too.


There is no country today more reactionary than America, except Israel maybe,

*cought* Saudi-Arabia *cough*


One of my main objections to communism is mainly that there is no belief in God or any higher power.

True and false. True because there can be no organized religion - under organized religion, man is still a slave, doing the Church's bidding. False because you can believe in whatever you want - just as you can now. Do you pray five times a day? Do you read the Bible? Go ahead, no one can tell you those things are bad or illegal - they are your choices and your choices alone.

But you cross the line when you force other people into believing whatever you believe in.


Its not that i feel everyone has to believe but i feel that as a majority, w/o any kind of belief in a higher power people begin to lose a kind of absolute and universal system of coordinates, to which he could always relate everything, chiefly himself.

Even the majority of the people can believe in whatever they want to believe in. People live in communes, and it is up to the people in these communes to believe in whatever they want to believe in.

They can even have churches/mosques etc if they want - if the majority of the people really want something more than just "personal belief", they can decide that. That is why communism is the ultimate freedom.


It seems that over time people would lose a humble respect for the whole of creation and awareness of our obligations to it.

I disagree. I think people would begin to appreciate life a lot more than in the current society. Communism lets people do whatever they want to do, and believe in whatever they want to believe in.

How can people feel any respect to this barren, war-ravaged, corrupt filthy world we're living in today? This world where the rich and powerful rule with the police as their running-dogs?

Do you prefer to live in this system, where the politicians make undemocratic decisions to kill people, invade other countries, steal money from the poor under all kinds of undemocratic bonds and contracts, unions and corporations? Where your children have to wage war for oil, not to defend their own future? Where your thoughts and thinkings have absolutely no effect on the rulers, where you are not a human being, in this state where you are no longer even a being, but a consumer.

Or would you respect a world where people work with each other on agreed tasks and problems. A world where we use all of our minds to navigate into the future, where we create an equelibrium with nature, instead of hunting defenceless animals in order to get their bones or skin, to sell it and make money.

What respect do you see in the world today? Do you respect this "creation" where humans live on greed and corruption - this system where, one day, your own child will turn against you because a government you never voted for told him that you are the enemy? This world where you are trained to betray the ones you love.

[RATMFan]

So now i don't understand something...w/ communism would say a doctor make the same about of money (if there is any form of currency) as a police officer? B/c I don't really see how if thats the case anyone would even want to make the effort to get a job as involved as a doctor if ever job is equal in payment. Again I'm not entirly clear on how the money system works so if you could also clear that up it would be greatly appreciated.

[Urban Guerrilla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 02:07 AM
So now i don't understand something...w/ communism would say a doctor make the same about of money (if there is any form of currency) as a police officer? B/c I don't really see how if thats the case anyone would even want to make the effort to get a job as involved as a doctor if ever job is equal in payment. Again I'm not entirly clear on how the money system works so if you could also clear that up it would be greatly appreciated.
A short answer is to say out of personal interest. If you wanted to be a doctor because you think it could suit the type of work you want to do and study to be then you can become a doctor. Or if you are interested in police work and such there is that job for you. Some people would like to do interesting jobs for the social respect of others :che:

[RATMFan]

But don't you think that if every job was equal, most people would chose the ones that require very little education? I hate to say it but it seems that people are less and less interested in learning...at least among my peers. With out the chance to excel where is the motivation?

[danny android]

that is one of the main problems a lot of people have with communism. However there are some people who just want to be doctors or teachers or other things that require a lot of education. I for example want to go to colledge and learn to be a teacher, even though I know that teachers really don't make a lot in comparison to other carriers that take just as much education.

[Urban Guerrilla]

If people don't want to educate themselves and be satisfied with jobs that don't involve a lot of schooling or none at all (some places require special training, since you are speaking of motivation), they have the freedom, but the selections mostly deal with human services i.e. waiters/waitresses, clerks, and basically jobs you would find if you wouldn't go to college now. People like myself, would like to go into the medical field, not for the money, but because of the interesting cases, helping of others, and people I know that I can associate great with :che:

[LSD]

But don't you think that if every job was equal, most people would chose the ones that require very little education?

It's questions like this that keep me convinced that communism will work; because people are so different.

So many posters come to this board and state that everyone will be a doctor, and no one will stack shelves!, others, like you, say that everyone will stack shelves, and no one will want to be a doctor.

The truth is that people are different. Indeed some people will not want to go through the education required to be a doctor. Many people are simply not interested in medicine. That's a good thing. Everyone can't be a doctor, but enough must. And there are enough people interested in medicine to fill that requirement without oversaturating the proffession. The rest of us will do all the other things that must be done ...because we're all different.

As opposed to what the cappies will tell you, it is the very uniqueness of people upon which communism is predicated!

[MoscowFarewell]

It is not our point in hopes to fight in the revolution, but to prepare future generations for the revolution we may never experience. Yes, we can talk about these communist countries, but we aren't aiming for exactly as they were. Their original creators had a hopeful idea more than it became, into a dictated hell. Marx never wanted a dictated hell.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 10:07 PM
So now i don't understand something...w/ communism would say a doctor make the same about of money (if there is any form of currency) as a police officer? B/c I don't really see how if thats the case anyone would even want to make the effort to get a job as involved as a doctor if ever job is equal in payment. Again I'm not entirly clear on how the money system works so if you could also clear that up it would be greatly appreciated.
there wouldnt be cops :D

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 22 2005, 08:31 PM

One of my main objections to communism is mainly that there is no belief in God or any higher power.

We've seen what theocracy has wrought, however. Those societies which are predicated on a "belief in God" are some of the most brutal in history.

He never said he promoted Theocracy. He said he has a personal belief and he doesn't like the fact that Marxism wishes to ban this belief.

[KC]

So now i don't understand something...w/ communism would say a doctor make the same about of money (if there is any form of currency) as a police officer? B/c I don't really see how if thats the case anyone would even want to make the effort to get a job as involved as a doctor if ever job is equal in payment. Again I'm not entirly clear on how the money system works so if you could also clear that up it would be greatly appreciated.

There would be no money!

[LSD]

He never said he promoted Theocracy. He said he has a personal belief and he doesn't like the fact that Marxism wishes to ban this belief.

He said, "One of my main objections to communism is mainly that there is no belief in God or any higher power" meaning that he objects to a "belief in God" not being present in the ideology of communism. Ideologies which do include "beliefs in God" are called theocratic.

[anomaly]

The fact that God is not present in communist ideology does not mean the ideology is 'anti-God'. It simply means that the ideology is not concerned with this idea. Any communist society would be secular, meaning individual beliefs in God would not be banned.

[RATMFan]

Yea I know people are different, i never said that, what im questioning is how do you intice people to work that hard? Yes there may be a few people who are so passionate about becomming a doctor or such that they will do it, but i think that most people won't be motivated by just good will and wanting to help everyone eles. Hell i'm sure a majoity of people have love for their fellow man, but i'm sure it'll be hard to change the "look out for number 1" attitude. I heard a joke once about communism that went "we pretend to work, they pretend to care for us" something like that i don't know i'm not jerry seinfeld but I think that will always be the one area that will never be overcome. Oh and I'm gonna have to dissagree w/ LSD, i think what he was impling was that w/ society not having any kind of religion to provide some sort of guidelines then people will REALLY (see i can type in capitals too) stop wanting to help everyone out. And how can you say that our respect for the world is irrelevant? Are you saying that it is irrelevant to respect the world we live in? If thats the case you are no better that Bush and his buddies.

[Redvolution]

Since this was brought up, I'd like to inquire upon police and their presence in a communist society. Would they exist at all? If so, a basic outline upon their existence would be extremely appreciated.

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 04:54 PM
Since this was brought up, I'd like to inquire upon police and their presence in a communist society. Would they exist at all? If so, a basic outline upon their existence would be extremely appreciated.
I believe that the police will still exist in a communist state. Mainly becuase there will always be domestic issues even if you get rid of money and the class system. There are always things that people do that everyone conciders wrong, for example rape, murder, robery, etc. There will always be people out there that want to harm other people no matter what. So the police must exist in a communist society also just not be an oppresive organization as they have become in most modern countries.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by danny android+Jul 26 2005, 12:52 AM--> (danny android @ Jul 26 2005, 12:52 AM)
[email protected] 25 2005, 04:54 PM
Since this was brought up, I'd like to inquire upon police and their presence in a communist society. Would they exist at all? If so, a basic outline upon their existence would be extremely appreciated.
I believe that the police will still exist in a communist state. Mainly becuase there will always be domestic issues even if you get rid of money and the class system. There are always things that people do that everyone conciders wrong, for example rape, murder, robery, etc. There will always be people out there that want to harm other people no matter what. So the police must exist in a communist society also just not be an oppresive organization as they have become in most modern countries. [/b]
what do you need police for? to round up the suspected rapist? just set a court date and if they dont come, and have no good excuse, than they are obviously guilty. no police needed, and if they run, well they cant come back so they arent a threat anymore.

[danny android]

But who is going to keep them out of the community or enforce any kind of punishment/rehabilitation? What is going to stop them from doing this again?

[Clarksist]

what do you need police for? to round up the suspected rapist? just set a court date and if they dont come, and have no good excuse, than they are obviously guilty. no police needed, and if they run, well they cant come back so they arent a threat anymore.


Well, who is going to narrow down who is the suspect? Who will be trained to specifically solve murders and crimes?

To say that post-revolution everyone as a democracy can do everything is just bullocks, direct democracy on that large of scale is impossible to fathom.

[Urban Guerrilla]

Honestly, I don't think crime rate would be high, they say Cuba barely has any crime, so the police are there to help tourists :che:

[danny android]

I don't believe that the crime rate would be "high" either but there would still be crime. And a crime should have consiquences.

[Dante]

I think there is some confusion over how a communist society might work. First off - a communist society - we just don't know. It is so far in the future that we will not be able to determine how it will function on a daily basis. We can establish various trends that will be borne out under the new system, such as that it will involve the free association of humans, unhindered by sexism, racism homophobia and so on. It will feature no repressive state apparatus (police) because the state exists to defend the property of the ruling class. A society where there is no class (communism) will have no need for police.

On a side note, we will have organised community defence against anti socail attacks. Under communism poverty related crimes will dissappear (muggings, burglary, fraud, theft and so on) and anti social crimes will drastically reduce. Most rapes occur within the family, because it is an oppressive bourgeose unit that creates unequal power relations between men and women. Under communism the family as we understand it will cease to exist. Communities will decide punishment for any anti-social crimes that are carried out, and udner socialism there will be laws and people to enforce those laws.

But as for the 'who will be a doctor, who will be a shelf stacker debate', under socialism (the stage before communism) these issues will de decided by a planend economy. There will not be a lassiez faire libeterian do as you please mentality. There will be a co-ordinated, centralised distribution of jobs and work for everyone, organised via the local workers assembalies. How many doctors are required will be ascertained and then places on course will be opened up for whoever wants to do it, I for one would not want to be a doctor because I hate the site of blood. I would be willing to stack shelves for some time a day, as long as I had other work that was more fulfilling as well.

As for God, if some people want to worship something that does not exist, that is their perogative. As long as they do not oppress anyone with their ideas, that is their individual choice.

[destroyauthority]

There's a difference between knowing what will happen and what should happen. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to expect an armed revolution in America anytime soon, or at all. We are here to show that if such a revolution did occur, we would be in full support of it. And please, would you point me to a place where communism is being practiced? True communism that is, not the form of government being practiced by the USSR or China. Communism as the way Marx and Engels envisioned.