Affirmative Action

[CCCPneubauten]

This policy of establishing such things as minority "quotas" in colleges is a hot debate...I don't really know where I stand...if this practice is indeed racist or just restitution for these "minorities" I don’t know that much about it anyway. :(

So shoot over your thoughts so I can try to make sense of this affirmative action.

Thanks,
Will

[danny android]

In my opinion it is a racist idea. there have been times where a white man trieng to get into a colledge has been not accepted to make room for a black man that is less qualified than the white man to go to that colledge just so the colledge can meet it's quota of black people. This is just deviding us into race more and more. People should not be accepted into a school just because of there race this is racist definitly.

Plus I am pretty sure that the supreme court ruled affermative action unjust. (not that I trust the US government)

[Seeker]

I see it as a way to level the playing field. Right now there is a huge opportunity gap to match the wealth gap. There are not enough minorities in the middle class, and this prevents future generations of minorities from entering the middle class. Populations tend to grow in proportion to each other, so a small percentage of middle class minorities will, in future generations, be a higher number of people but the same overall percentage unless acted upon by an outside influence such as Affirmative Action.

The system is, in its current natural state, racist in favor of whites. Affirmative Action is a balancing act. By giving minorities enhanced opportunities to increase their capital, you increase the power and influence of their decedents. It is a band-aid, but for now it is better than nothing.

[Clarksist]

As Seeker said, Affirmative Action is about the best bet for minorities to make it into good schools nowadays. It may be racist to only give the help to minorities, but white kids shouldn't be scared. There will ALWAYS be a place in a America for snobby White Nationalists.

Mainly its in the White House.

[danny android]

I just don't really agree with anything that devides people by race. If the chances of a poor black person's chances of getting into a university are better than a poor white person's, then how is this fair. I think that affermitive action is just deviding the working class. We don't need better education for just black people, we need better education for all opressed people. We must fight for free higher education.

[enigma2517]

Yea it should be done based on income to be at least somewhat efficient.

Luckily communists won't need affirmative action :)

[bunk]

It's a really bad idea, as well as being racist and unfair, it breeds resentment among white people.

[guerillablack]

Thanks a buncha whites making more decisions on my life.

[Freigemachten]

It is an extremely racsist policy and denies obviously more qualified individuals access to desired programs. The prime exaple coming from my area not long ago. A local fire station was hiring 2 fire fighters, there were nearly 30 applicants. Each applicant was required to take a test to assert compitence in the field. Logicaly speaking the 2 highest scores would indicate the most qualified therefore would be the 2 hired. The highest score was in fact hired, he was a young white male, as was score 2 but score 2 was not hired. Score 3 was a young asian male he filled the second position over the obviously more qualified score 2 becausehe was a minority. That is by no means fair or just, it does not level the playing field in any effect it does however damage the function of whatever organization. Minority individuals are being hired or allowed into educational systems because they are minorities, while more capable individuals of the majority are denied access that they are due because of their merits. It sounds capitalist but in reality its anti capitalist because only in a capitalist society would a program like this get off the ground.

[violencia.Proletariat]

letting a few more blacks into college wont change this poverty gap or whatever they want affirmative action for. we need to abolish capitalism to do that :D

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 08:48 PM
letting a few more blacks into college wont change this poverty gap or whatever they want affirmative action for. we need to abolish capitalism to do that :D
Obviously, but for right here - right now, Affirmative Action seems the only way to help out.


It sounds capitalist but in reality its anti capitalist because only in a capitalist society would a program like this get off the ground.


It isn't pro-capitalist or anti-capitalist. Believe it or not, not everything in the world comes down to the "revolution".

Affirmitive Action ensures that rich white bourgeois males cannot help out only other white males. In other words, for the time being it'll have to do.

[Hiero]

Its not racist. What is racist is the fact that wealth is distributed in uneven portion through society in regard to race.

The idea is that if someone is handicaped, to make things fair we help them, we give them extra benifits. This could be as simple as putting a ramp in for wheel chair access, so they have the use the same building as everyone else. If there was not a ramp, they would be disadvantaged

Living in poverty reduces access to proper food and quality education. This will result in poor grades. Now is it the person's fault that they did not have the same access as that of a Middle class white people? No its not.

So what we do to make things fair is say give them an extra 5 marks for instance. We do that because we assume that if that person had the same advantages as a middle class white person, they could of got thoose 5 marks, but since they didn't have the same experinces they did not achieve thoose marks.

It is racist to not give that person extra marks, because in the US it is a fact that a large portion of black people live in poverty. So to help them achieve goals that they could not achieve during their youth, we even the playing feild.

If we only accept people on their raw mark then you are going to have uneven portions of white and black, middle and lower class people in University.

The problems that could arise with this system and probaly do is again due to race problems. I don't know how this works, and the people criticising seem to not know as well. One problem could be that a black man had the same advantages as a white man, and come from equal ecomomic class. So their should be no benifits given to either.

Although that is rather beurcratic way of fixing a problem. There are more disadvantages then economic, its not all about money. Two people could come from the same economic class yet have different experince due to race, gender or location.

A women aiming to improve in the feild of woodwork may be discriminated agaisnt for moving in on a male dominated job. Or in the case of a race issue, a black man may have to overcome racism, which would no doubt affect his marks. In Australia some Aboriginals who may come from a middle class, yet they can be disadavantaged again. This can be pyscological, coming to grasp the affects of stolen generation, or taking time to regain ones lost culture or just living in a white dominated world that has in past created negative views towards Aborginals.

Although this does not help the problem, and the capitalist system can not because it relies on profit and can not raise or spend revenue on programs like this. The current system in the US and what is being created in Australia is called economic rationalism. So we are going to see alot of this programs dwindle.

If we were to have a socialist system, there would be projects like this, but on a massive scale. Alot of revenue would be spent on bringing disadvantaged people out from their economic and education slums. The would not be exactly as this, because they would be progressive with and end goal to create an even playing field for all races.


If the chances of a poor black person's chances of getting into a university are better than a poor white person's, then how is this fair.

I forgot to quote other people, but even though i have really gave a respones to this quote i wont to be more to the point on it.

What it is trying to do is give black people the same opportunity as a white person. That is because beforehand the white person having more access to the resources need to achieve high marks had a better chance of getting into a degree then a black person who didn't have the same resources.

This is not racist, it is just trying to give the black person a repayment for the disadvantages. The black person not having the same advantages we must then assume if they were in the same position as a white person, they would of done the just as good.

To not give the benifit is racist, as you are saying that a white man is just smarted then a black man, because the white man got higher marks.


Thanks a buncha whites making more decisions on my life.

A black perspective is welcome in this thread. Just don't complain about the lack of black people then leave the thread without giving a response.

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 04:23 AM

If the chances of a poor black person's chances of getting into a university are better than a poor white person's, then how is this fair.

I forgot to quote other people, but even though i have really gave a respones to this quote i wont to be more to the point on it.

What it is trying to do is give black people the same opportunity as a white person. That is because beforehand the white person having more access to the resources need to achieve high marks had a better chance of getting into a degree then a black person who didn't have the same resources.

This is not racist, it is just trying to give the black person a repayment for the disadvantages. The black person not having the same advantages we must then assume if they were in the same position as a white person, they would of done the just as good.

To not give the benifit is racist, as you are saying that a white man is just smarted then a black man, because the white man got higher marks.

I think that you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. What I mean is that if two people of different color come from the same economic background, lets say they are both in the lower class, then they are affected the same way by their position in life. It doesn't matter what color the person is a poor person is still a poor person and must be treated fairly. The affects of being poor are the same for both black and white. It's not a matter of race it is a matter of class. Not all black people are poor and not all white people are rich. So therefore afirmative action is not necesarily helping the poor community at all, and definitly not helping the entire poor comunity.

[Hiero]

The affects of being poor are the same for both black and white.

Do you deny there is racism in the US.


So therefore afirmative action is not necesarily helping the poor community at all, and definitly not helping the entire poor comunity.

They have limits, so they have to have realistic goals. So they try to help a section of the underprivileged society.

It would be really helpfull for a black person to comment on this.

[monkeydust]

It's definitely not racist. It's not established with racist intentions, and the idea behind it isn't to "be nice to blacks at the expense of whites", but rather to artificially "level the field" because if it's left alone it isn't even already.

For example, this...


there have been times where a white man trieng to get into a colledge has been not accepted to make room for a black man that is less qualified than the white man

...is justified because of the assumption that on countless occasions a black man will have been equally as good or more qualified than a white man, but, due to to institutional racism, would not have been accepted.

Having said that, I can certainly see reasons for why Affirmative Action would be considered irritating, and there is an argument to say that it either (1) doesn't tackle the issue of racism in the right way and gives just a "band aid" to the issue, or (2) increases division through the perceived unjustness of the plicy in the eyes of whites.

[danny android]

Do you deny there is racism in the US.

No, definitly not. I think that there is racism in cases of police profiling and what not but not in economic or educational situations. There are definitly still stereotypes that people have for black people and other people of color. However, having a system which devides people by race will only increase the social devision of race in amerika. It might decrease the economic devision of race but there will still be social devision. Perhaps affirmative action should not be based off of race and be based off of family income or something of that nature, so that the working class as a whole will benifit from it.

[bombeverything]

Affirmative action exists because racism exists. It is sad but necessary within a capitalist system [like welfare payments for the poor]. African American's are a significantly disadvantaged group within the U.S. Similarly in Australia, Indigenous Australians live about 20 years less than the rest of the population.

However I believe the policy has more to do with disadvantage than “race” itself. Affirmative action has the aim of countering racist prejudice by privileging those who are disadvantaged. As someone said before, it is hardly ideal, but it is all we have.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by danny [email protected] 22 2005, 07:11 PM
I think that there is racism . . . but not in economic or educational situations.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . .

Sorry, you're kidding, right?
Can you actually read that, think about hundreds of years of systematic racist attacks and the continuing dominance of reactionary racist ideology, recognising the economy doesn't exist off on its own, disconnected from other aspects of social reality, then maybe peek at poverty statistics, and tell me that racism doesn't exist in economic situations?

Affirmative action isn't racist any more than Women-Only safe spaces are.
Both reflect the real necessities of survival imposed by patriarchal, racist, etc. society.

They're band-aids, and don't address the real fundamental causes, but let's see you tell yr suffering grandfather to stop taking his pain killers and "deal with it".

Yeah, I thought so . . .

[adreamofequality]

The black African population in the U.S. lives under daily oppression. We live in poverty and we are constant victims of police brutality and murder. We fill the prisons never receiving justice in the court system. We are exploited and pimped by the companies and businesses we have to work for in this society. We are the victims of a U.S. controlled drug economy that labels the black community criminals and kidnaps us by the thousands every day to become prisoners of war. In fact we are prisoners in and outside of cell walls. We are prisoners because we have to fear that some pack of wild gun carrying pigs can harass, beat, jail, or kill us at any moment. we are prisoners because without that wage, that little bit of crumbs you get for working while their private companies grow richer and richer, we cant even afford the overpriced lowest quality food they sell to us in the stores(and the stores are owned by everybody else but us). Capitalism is what they call the economic system we live under. "Cash rules everything around me," "is all about the Benjamins." we hear it in the music. We feel it in our lives. Capitalism means black suffering. They call this a "free" market for "enterprise." they say anybody can make it if you play by the rules. But what rules do the trigger happy police play by when they murder us all over this so called free country? What rules did they play by when they forced black people into slavery to build up the "front money for this white capitalist system? no we aunt free in this society no more than food is free at the grocery store or no more than health care is free when we get sick. We are living in oppression. This is the root cause to the violence in our communities among each other. We are the frustrated victims of a criminal system! We live in fear and ignorance...but the times are changing. They are changing because we are tired of living like this! We are tired of dying like this! We are tired of losing our friends our family our people to death jails and prisons. We are tired of being hungry and being forced into the drug economy by our daily needs. We are tired of being harassed beaten and murdered by the police. We are tired of Uncle Tom leaders telling us how mad to get and to trust in this corrupt system to give us justice. We are tired of slaving every day for little or nothing while fattening up white peoples stomachs and wallets and we are realizing that those of us who live in these conditions of oppression have only ourselves. We have to begin to learn more about what can make a difference. Not no bullshit but a real difference. We have to get together have meetings and decide for ourselves what we need to do to change the conditions we live in an defend our rights! we aint going to just sit around and wait for more and more shit to keep making our lives harder. We must organize and educate each other ad be ready to move on the ideas we come up with. We will study our past mistakes so we can avoid repeating them. When we do this then we can get somewhere. LET’S GET FREE! Welcome to the revolution!









God, I love a man in uniform!
(But, uh, before we get too intimate here, big fella):
what exactly are the great historical accomplishments of "your" race that make you proud to be white?Capitalism? Slavery? Genocide? Sitcoms? Guns? War? Pollution? Addiction? NAFTA? Thigh-Master? This is your fucking white-history, my "friend".
So why don't we start making a history worth being proud of and start fighting the real fucking enemy:the white male capitalist supremacist.Swastikas and Klan-robes. Sexist, racist, homophobes.This one's for the "Master Race": my brown-power ass in your white-power face!

[Hiero]

what exactly are the great historical accomplishments of "your" race that make you proud to be white?

Is this question to us, or you being rhetorical?

Most level headed white people don't really think about white achievements, it is normally the nationalist white people who think of the white "race" as a homogeneous "race" who like to emphasis achievements as white achievements.

[guerillablack]

That has nothing to do with being level headed, but that's another psychological topic , another thread.

[adreamofequality]

no it was rhetorical

[/CODE] "My revolution is born out of love for my people not from hatred for others"-Ernesto "Che" Guevara

[bombeverything]

Affirmative action is often referred to as positive discrimination.

[themaskedavenger]

Affirmative Action is idiotic and racist.

You cant level the playing field at the college level. If they really cared they would fix the problem at elementary school level, or as I call it, the "trickle up effect." Then youll level the playing field.

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 07:00 AM
If they really cared they would fix the problem at elementary school level, or as I call it, the "trickle up effect." Then youll level the playing field.

They don't care.

[themaskedavenger]

I know they dont, thats why we have affirmative action

[Hiero]

If they really cared they would fix the problem at elementary school level, or as I call it, the "trickle up effect." Then youll level the playing field.

I don't think they have the power to do that. The best they can do is assist people who have had a disadvantaged past, by trying to get them a good future.

[themaskedavenger]

OF course they have the fucking power to do it. Just take all the damn money they throw at the war effort and pump it into the education system. Do they know how much more educated the counttry would be if they did that.

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 07:15 AM
I know they dont, thats why we have affirmative action

And do you think we should get rid of it?

[themaskedavenger]

Yes I do. Do something to help out minority kids at the elementary school level, and slowely weed out Affirmative Action. That way once AA is all gone, you have the new smarter generation at the college level.

[bombeverything]

OF course they have the fucking power to do it. Just take all the damn money they throw at the war effort and pump it into the education system. Do they know how much more educated the counttry would be if they did that.


Yes I do. Do something to help out minority kids at the elementary school level, and slowely weed out Affirmative Action. That way once AA is all gone, you have the new smarter generation at the college level.

The belief that affirmative action should be abolished within a capitalist system is absurd. This is like claiming that all social welfare should be abolished because it is merely a bandaid solution. I am certainly not claiming that it is incorrect. Nonetheless, racism will exist as long as capitalism exists and it will not be destroyed by policies imposed from above that could only reform the system.

As previously mentioned, affirmative action exists because racism exists, and social welfare exists because capitalism exists. Right now the policies that you are advocating would ignore all of those currently too old or lack the material conditions necessary to receive the benifits you are referring to. Such a policy within capitalism could only lead to increased inequality and racial discrimination.

[Xvall]

The Supreme Court outlawed inflexible quota systems in affirmative action programs in 1978.

[Free Palestine]

Originally posted by danny [email protected] 21 2005, 05:56 PM
In my opinion it is a racist idea...This is just deviding us into race more and more. People should not be accepted into a school just because of there race this is racist definitly.
This stance seems right because it describes the situation that would exist in an ideal world. Eventually, this is the way the world should be.

However, the world is far from ideal. The fact remains that African Americans and other minorities still face countless disadvantages in our society--disadvantages that result from systematic enslavement and oppression. They are still more likely to be given harsher sentences than whites for similar crimes and still less likely to get a job than a similarly qualified white applicant. Ignoring these facts and eliminating affirmative action will only set the clock back on gains made by minorities in America.

Progress has been made, but racism still exists in this country. It is the more subtle forms of it that affirmative action exists to address. Massive amounts of study needs to accompany affirmative action programs to judge their efficacy, and those that aren't working should be scrapped. But until all people--employers, police, and prosecutors especially--see the races equally and until the gross inequality of resources distributed among races is addressed, A.A. programs should remain. We'll know we've gotten it right when board rooms reflect American diversity.

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 7 2005, 09:53 AM
This stance seems right because it describes the situation that would exist in an ideal world. Eventually, this is the way the world should be.

However, the world is far from ideal. The fact remains that African Americans and other minorities still face countless disadvantages in our society--disadvantages that result from systematic enslavement and oppression. They are still more likely to be given harsher sentences than whites for similar crimes and still less likely to get a job than a similarly qualified white applicant. Ignoring these facts and eliminating affirmative action will only set the clock back on gains made by minorities in America.

Progress has been made, but racism still exists in this country. It is the more subtle forms of it that affirmative action exists to address. Massive amounts of study needs to accompany affirmative action programs to judge their efficacy, and those that aren't working should be scrapped. But until all people--employers, police, and prosecutors especially--see the races equally and until the gross inequality of resources distributed among races is addressed, A.A. programs should remain. We'll know we've gotten it right when board rooms reflect American diversity.

Well said!