November 4th, 1995

[Blasphemy]

seven years ago, on this day, israeli prime minister and minister of defence, Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by an israeli right-wing extremist who opposed the peace process Rabin's government was leading. the assassination was a traumatic ending to a huge peace rally, in which Rabin was the guest of honor and the main speaker.

Yitzhak Rabin was the first prime minister to establish diplomatic negotiations with the palestinian people. he, along with israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres and palestinian authority chairman Yassir Arafat, started the oslo peace process, which would have ultimately lead to the creating of a palestinian state, and the end of the israeli occupation in the territories.

Rabin's tragic assassination put an end to the peace process, and an end to hope. after his assassination, rightists politican Netanyahu was elected prime minister, with no intention to going forth with the peace process.

"violence erodes the foundations of the israeli democracy", said Rabin on the night of the assassination, "it must be abolished, condemned and isolated. violence is not the way of the state of israel".

today, we are witnessing the consequences of his assassination. the new intifada and the renewal of the occupation, both which have taken the lives of thousands. let us hope that peace will once again reign in the middle east.

"forever my brother, i will always remember you, and we'll meet in the end, you know."

[mooseboy84]

well, this is what happens when people are brainwashed with religon, they cannot rationalize and belive that gods on there side and supports them and their right no matter what they do.

[nz revolution]

Zionism is stupid, its like the Nazism.

Those dogs in Israel are fuckin up everything.

There shouldnt have to be a seperate state of Palestine it should be one country where Palestinians and Israelis live happily, like most other nations in the world.

And to make it even better, it should be a workers state.

POWER TO THE MOTHER FUCKIN PEOPLE

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from nz revolution on 4:12 am on Nov. 7, 2002
Zionism is stupid, its like the Nazism.


POWER TO THE MOTHER FUCKIN PEOPLE


I am suddenly leaning towards zionism once more.

I hope you are not the cream of the anti-zionist crop because POWER TO THE MUTHA FUCKIN PEOPLE really is not persuading me to symapthize anti-zionism.

Do you care to tell me why you think that zionims is nazism? Fascism I can understand but nazism?

I don't remember an Israeli gestapo or any kind Palestinian concentration camps.

[new democracy]

why do you lean to zionism!? let look at the creator of zionism: he was filthy rich!!!! while the jewish elite chose zionism, what does the majority of the jews(workers)choose? they decided to choose socialism and communism. this show us that zionism is a bourgeoisie ideology(just like every kind of nationalism)that was created to separate workers from each other. until ww2, zionism was appealing only to walthy jews. jewish workers allied with gentile workers. herzl himself admitted he wanted to separate jewish workers from non jewish workers. as he said to kaiser wilhelm in 1,898 "i explained that we were taking the jews away from revolutionary parties". ans zionist hae cooperated with reactionary anti semite elements many times. the wzo(world zionist organization)have cooperated with the nazis to save wealthy jews from death while letting the jewish workers die. herzl worked with the anti semite government or russia and with kaiser wilhelm. the government of argentina between 1,976-1,983 was very anti semite and many people that "disappeared" at that time were jews. and israel was one of the best friends of argentina at that time(and zionist claim they DEFEND jews from anti semitism). nz revolution, agree with you in every word.

[Blasphemy]

how do you guys manage to turn everything into an arugment about zionism or israel-palestine??

[new democracy]

your right it was out of topic. check the thread "The Soviet Woman- a Full and Equal Citizen of her country". i didn't turn this one into palestine/israel debate. but it still not too late.......

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from new democracy on 12:46 pm on Nov. 7, 2002
why do you lean to zionism!? let look at the creator of zionism: he was filthy rich!!!! while the jewish elite chose zionism, what does the majority of the jews(workers)choose? they decided to choose socialism and communism. this show us that zionism is a bourgeoisie ideology(just like every kind of nationalism)that was created to separate workers from each other. until ww2, zionism was appealing only to walthy jews. jewish workers allied with gentile workers. herzl himself admitted he wanted to separate jewish workers from non jewish workers. as he said to kaiser wilhelm in 1,898 "i explained that we were taking the jews away from revolutionary parties". ans zionist hae cooperated with reactionary anti semite elements many times. the wzo(world zionist organization)have cooperated with the nazis to save wealthy jews from death while letting the jewish workers die. herzl worked with the anti semite government or russia and with kaiser wilhelm. the government of argentina between 1,976-1,983 was very anti semite and many people that "disappeared" at that time were jews. and israel was one of the best friends of argentina at that time(and zionist claim they DEFEND jews from anti semitism). nz revolution, agree with you in every word.



is that all you got. I never saw anything in the book of zionist policies that spoke of seperating Jewish workers and factory owners.

I can define zionism in 2 words: Jewish homeland.

don't you think that you should deserve a homeland if you're family was anihilated by nazis?

That is similar to me calling you a fascist for wanting to live in a house for the rest of your days without your old buttbuddy prison inmate who had been know to give you secret anal pleasures which you did not desire.


this seems like a strange analogy, comparing zionists prison gangrape victims but I have to get my point across.

and btw, I am not a zionist again as of this yet. But you must understand that I am not persuaded by anti-zionist comments such as "power to the mutha fuckin people" I said that simplicity was bliss, not the simple minded.

[new democracy]

zionism never claimed that it want to separate jewish workers from each other, but it was the real intentions of it's founders. nationalism is a way of the elite to separate workers from each other. it is not like zionism is worse than any other nationalism. anyway, sorry for the short reply, i just woke up so i will say more later.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from new democracy on 9:17 am on Nov. 9, 2002
zionism never claimed that it want to separate jewish workers from each other, but it was the real intentions of it's founders. nationalism is a way of the elite to separate workers from each other. it is not like zionism is worse than any other nationalism. anyway, sorry for the short reply, i just woke up so i will say more later.

alright, I will hold you to your word. So far you are not making any sense to me. (no offense)

go into a little more detail so that I can be convinced as to why zionism whould really be considered fascism.

[new democracy]

zionism is not fascism. it is nationalism. the question is, does you consider all forms of nationalism as bad? there are more tolerant zionists, but they are nationalists. how can you be an internationalist and support zionism? and again: it is not worse than any other nationalism!!!! it is bad as much as arab nationalism, black nationalism, kurdish nationalism, or any other forms of nationalism are bad. and here is another question: in what kind of country only people from some nationality can immigrate? in the u.s you can immigrate no matter what is your nationality(at least officially). in israel if you are not jewish you cannot immigrate. which other country officially declares this kind of twisted logic?

[man in the red suit]

1.) what is wrong with nationalism. You go on about how bad nationalism is.....why?

2.) you don't have to be Jewish to immigrate to Israel.

My aunt, her husband and her 3 children immigrated there.

[Reuben]

I think the equation zionism=facism/nazismis a bit daft. I personally am not a zionist but ithink this is a huge over simplification. Zionism was a movement started by generally secular ashkenazi Jews and was modelled on the many other states formed by ethnic groups who had asserted their rightto national liberation. It is important to understand that in europe jews did not simply constitute a religious group but were an ethnic community comprised of both secular (non-religious) and religious jews who shared a common background and national language.
Zionism as i said came out of the general nationalist movement. I dont support zionism but i do think it was an inevitable consequence of a millenium of european oppression culminating in the hollocaust

[man in the red suit]

Ok, we are making some progress here.

Reuben, since I like your posts about zionism the best of all, explain to me what is so bad about nationalism.

[new democracy]

you don't have to be jewish to immigrate to israel!? maybe if you have a jewish relative in israel or that you immigrate along with a jewish relative but without that they will not let you in. but israel also accepted some a small amount of refugees from vietnam and from kosovo(part of them returned). why nationalism is bad? did you became thine stalin? nationalism is bad since it separate workers. all kinds of it. not only zionism. nationalism is the idea that the workers of some nation have more on common with there "own" elite rather workers from other nationalities. zionism didn't separated jewish workers from other workers? by creating another separated state they did what their founders wanted.
"the only way the jews could have had any success in fighting for their rights in eastern europe was in alliance with the working-class movement, in all these countries, saw anti semitsim for what it was: an ideological razor in the hands of their own capitalist enemies. but altought social revolution meant equallity for jews as jews, it also meant the expropriation of the jewish middle class as capitalists." from "patai, complete diaries of theodore herzl". sorry it took me so much time to reply, i just needed to find that quote.

[man in the red suit]

Main Entry: na·tion·al·ism
Pronunciation: 'nash-n&-"li-z&m, 'na-sh&-n&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1844
: loyalty and devotion to a nation;



hmmm....your right this is just completely terrible!!!

being devoted to your country?? we can't have that can we ? what person in their right mind could be devoted to their country? think of death, sickness and starvation that will arise from being devoted to your country!! think of all the seperation!!! the seperation!!! naturally since we nationalists are being devoted to our country, we simply MUST, under all circumstances, seperate our workers!!!


I am still missing the point. Forgive me. Just how does nationalism have anything to do whatsowever about seperating workers?

(Edited by man in the red suit at 10:12 am on Nov. 9, 2002)

[new democracy]

when nationalists create separated nations, they don't separate workers from each other? nationalism creates disunity. and if you don't believe that the intentions of nationalists are to separate workers from each other, you can't deny that this is what it does. israel didn't separated jewish workers from other workers? and zionism at that time was appealing only to wealthy jews. herzl himself said that he want to separate workers from each others. he said to kaiser wilhelm in 1,898 "i explained that we were taking the jews away from revolutionary parties".

[man in the red suit]

you still haven't explained to me properly. Maybe there is just no getting through to me but.

How is creating diunity among the workers, a policy or desire of nationalism??? All of my teachers family members and even friends are American naitonalists. They have no desire whasoever to create disunity among the workers. What purpose would that serve anyhow. What's the point? you can still be a nationalist and NOT try to prevent strikes by disuniting workers.

I am trying to ask you a question but instead you go on and on more about how zionism is nationalism. OK, I am now agreeing with you that zionism is in fact nationalism. If you want me to consider zionism to be bad, you must first explain to me what is so terrible about nationalism. And I'm, not buying the worker disunity thing. Try again.