Ho Chi Minh

[Camarada]

what do you think of him?

[Ownthink]

He beat the only nation to never lose a war before in a war. That's hard. He has my admiration.

[codyvo]

I admire Ho Chi Minh for his bravery to stand up to such a powerhouse, while most in his situation would have backed off and simply turned into US puppets he not only stood against them, but he kicked their ass... at the price of 5 million people. Unfortunately VietNam is now just a capitalist society but he had little to do with it becoming capitalist.

[viva le revolution]

I do not doubt Ho Chi Minh's revolutionary fervour, He was the only person to defeat the U.S armed forces directly instead of one of it's puppets. That's indeed an admirable achievement.
Vietnam turning capitalist has nothing to do with him. in my view that invariably happens when a beaurocracy takes over after the original leader leader dies. Just like the USSR, like China.

[YKTMX]

The Vietcong could never have beaten the U.S. militarily, and they didn't. The reason they won the war was because the anti-war movement percolated into the U.S. army.

The Vietcong fought bravely, but I don't particuarly admire Ho Chi Minh or his politics.

[angus_mor]

the vietminh was one the greatest guerilla bands ever, under the guidance of ho chi minh, it defeated the US w/o ever officially declaring war. im glad to see people challenging imperialism abroad

[Hiero]

The reason they won the war was because the anti-war movement percolated into the U.S. army.

Typicall.

You just attacked the honour of the men and women who died fighting the US imperialist to give it to the honour of a bunch of pyseodo leftist hippies that all sold out in the end to middle class jobs.

You think if the the VietCong and the North Veitnamese army did nothing, that a bunch of people place cards would of saved the Vietnamese from imperialist?

Yes the protests did contribute to the withdrawl, and they even stoped large imperialist movements up till the first Gulf War.

Yet the main cause for withdrawl was the US was getting swamped and losing morale. If the US had won the war and secured the country, then support would have swayed in favour of the US, and the protest would of been less then half there size at its height.

It was only because the US were finding it hard to secure their control of the country, that mass opinion swayed to oppose the war, which lead to large protest. There was only a small amount of the protest that were consciously aware of the intentions the US of the nature of the imperialist. The rest were just a typically reaction to drawn our war, which the populace does not like.

[OleMarxco]

Now I think that might be simplifying the situation, but then again, perhaps not. They only cared for their own soldier's lives, but allright, it started the spark of Anti-Americanism all over the world, so WHADDYA GOTTA SAY!? I don't give a damn 'bout the hippies, for or against, but the Vietcong kicked some major ass for only a bowl of rice ;)

[Organic Revolution]

i think that Ho chi minh was interesting, at best. i dont think he is the great revolutionary charicter you make him out to be.

[comradestephen]

I agree with a lot of these posts. Ho Chi Minh was a great revolutionary leader and a great Marxist-Leninist. It was with his help that the Vietnamese people overthrew capitalism and the puppet regimes of imperialism and established socialism in Vietnam.

Has Vietnam reverted to capitalism? Not completely but there is clearly a trend in the direction of market-socialism which we have seen in history leads to capitalism. It's definately a bad trend but things aren't so black and white as they are made out to be.

[Xvall]

I admire him quite a bit. The Vietcong did do a lot. Though the Vietcong never posessed the firepower to match the American military, they would have continued fighting until every last one of them was dead. It was not their strength that helped them suceed, but their persistence. Reminds me of a quote said by Minh:


"You will kill ten of our men, and we will kill one of yours, and in the end it will be you who will tire of it."

The anti-war movement helped as well, but the government didn't just pull out because people at home were complaining — they pulled out because thousands of US Soldiers were coming back home in bodybags, and they hadn't achieved anything.

As far as Minh's politics were conscerned, he wasn't actually an extreme communist/socialist. He agreed with the tenants of communism and socialism as a means of helping liberate his people. His struggle was much more national than it was ideological or economic.

[Warren Peace]

I'm very impressed with this thread! :) With all the domgatism here, I expected half the people commenting to accuse Ho Chi Minh of being an "authoritarian tyrant" or something like that.

Ho Chi Minh was a great revolutionary, a great Marxist-Leninist, and overall a very great man, also very wise. He united the masses against French and US imperialism and kicked capitalism in the ass despite being outnumbered and outgunned. A true socialist hero. Again I am relieved nobody here is against him for some idiotic reason. I agree with Hiero and a lot of the other comments here.


As far as Minh's politics were conscerned, he wasn't actually an extreme communist/socialist.

Hahahahaha! :lol:

Uncle Ho, not an extreme communist? Here's the Minh quote that's in my profile:

"In Lenin's book, there were political terms that were difficult to understand. But by reading them again and again finally I was able to grasp the essential part. What emotion, enthusiasm, enlightenment and confidence they communicated to me! I wept for joy. Sitting by myself in my room, I would shout as if I were addressing large crowds: 'Dear martyr compatriots! This is what we need, this is our path to liberation!' Since then, I had entire confidence in Lenin, in the Third International!"


Has Vietnam reverted to capitalism? Not completely but there is clearly a trend in the direction of market-socialism which we have seen in history leads to capitalism. It's definately a bad trend but things aren't so black and white as they are made out to be.

That's a good question; is Vietnam still socialist? There was no obvious point after the revolution where a new bourgeois took power in Vietnam, as with China. In my opinion, the answer depends on how you define socialism. If you say that socialism has never existed, then by that logic, it's fair to say Vietnam isn't socialist. However, if you give Cuba the credit of being socialist or even semi-socialist, then it's complete hypocrisy to say that Vietnam isn't at least semi-socialist. After all, Fidel Castro is a dictator, even if he is a good leader. Vietnam has no such dictatorship.

[YKTMX]

You just attacked the honour of the men and women who died fighting the US imperialist to give it to the honour of a bunch of pyseodo leftist hippies that all sold out in the end to middle class jobs.


Please.

I said the Vietcong fought bravely, did I not? I simply stated the fact that the anti-war movement was the main causal reason the U.S. ended the war. Whether this suits your own politics is another matter.

And another thing, Vietnam was never socialist.

[Led Zeppelin]

"The red army could never have beaten the U.S. militarily, and they didn't. The reason they won the war was because the anti-war movement percolated into the U.S. army." :rolleyes:

Here's another one:

"The red army could never have beaten Nazi Germany militarily, and they didn't. The reason they won the war was because the anti-war movement percolated into the German army."

[YKTMX]

Oh, the "roll eyes" smiley, it must be a comrade from the fascist hell-hole!

Tell me M-L, where does the second quote come from? Or have you, by any chance, fabricated it to make a rather banal point?

[Led Zeppelin]

Actaully i "made up" both quotes to prove a point, the point being that i can apply your sentence to nearly every war between a "strong" and a "weak" nation.


Oh, the "roll eyes" smiley, it must be a comrade from the fascist hell-hole!


What are you talking about, please explain.

[YKTMX]

Actaully i "made up" both quotes to prove a point, the point being that i can apply your sentence to nearly every war between a "strong" and a "weak" nation.

The comparison of the Nazi-Soviet war and the Vietnam war is not legitimate, obviously.


What are you talking about, please explain

You see this :rolleyes: , that is the "rolls eyes" smiley. From my time at Ernesto-Guevara forums, I remember people using it in almost every post. There was also a member called Marxism-Leninism there, who I assumed to be you. Perhaps I'm wrong?

[Led Zeppelin]

You see this , that the "rolls eyes" smiley. From my time at Ernesto-Guevara forums, I remember people using it in almost every post. There was also a member called Marxism-Leninism there, who I assumed to be you. Perhaps I'm wrong?

First of all you are derailing this thread, but i will respond.

Yes i was a member there, what is your point? Am i not allowed to post here because i was a member there?

[YKTMX]

First of all you are derailing this thread, but i will respond.


I also recognise this from E-G. I was not derailing the thread.


Yes i was a member there, what is your point? Am i not allowed to post here because i was a member there?

You can post where you like.

[Led Zeppelin]

I also recognise this from E-G. I was not derailing the thread.

See the title of the thread, then see the last few posts and then see who started it.

[YKTMX]

Discussing points made in the course of a thread is not derailing.

[violencia.Proletariat]

i dont think you can discredit what was going on here in america that much. from what i know, things were seeming all fine and dandy. it wasnt just a few peaceful marches of 200,000 people. you had people running around blowing up buildings. you had the black panthers, who im sure scareing the piss out of a lot of people. and i think these things were a lot for the government to handle on top of the war so it was PART, of the reason they withdrew.

[Warren Peace]

YouKnowTheyMurderedX and Marxism-Leninism, thank you comrades for your great discussion on Ho Chi Minh that you had for six or seven posts. It's amazing how you can stay on topic so well. :P

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 02:35 AM
Discussing points made in the course of a thread is not derailing.
Um where was the point made about using a smilie and the topic on EG forums.

You derailed the thread, just admit it.


I simply stated the fact that the anti-war movement was the main causal reason the U.S. ended the war. Whether this suits your own politics is another matter.

It has got nothing to do with politics. It is actually patronising to say "you fought bravely but it was the Americans that saved you"

It is a known fact that the public opinion will support a war if victory is quick. If the war is dragged out longer then the public was told, the public will shift opinion to oppose the war.

The protest were nothing more then a reaction to the war dragging on. The reason it dragged on was because the Veit Cong were dragging out the morale of the US troops, and sending them home in bags.

So locigical thinking was that the Veit Cong sending yanks home in bags was the main reason the US ended the war, not your yankie trots.